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Nathan
Nathan
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April 22nd, 2017 at 5:46:15 PM permalink
I was shocked to hear that many people prefer better payouts and low to no free play over high free play and lowered payouts. I am the opposite. I'd choose a lot of free play and lowered payouts. Any time you don't have to put your own money to play is Ace. :)
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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April 23rd, 2017 at 7:53:39 AM permalink
Bigger payouts.

You can take payouts with you.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
RealizeGaming
RealizeGaming
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April 23rd, 2017 at 8:14:02 AM permalink
Great question.

I'm not really sure what the correct balance would be since I actually like both the free games (time on the machine) and having a bigger payout. I like the fact that I can change games to accommodate what type of game I want to play at a given time.

I'm a huge fan of Mayan Chief with the extra rewards, but it seems to be very volatile in the wins and loses category. I like the idea that I can win hundreds of spins with wins doubled during that time frame, but I can easily go through several hundred spins and not win much of anything.

Overall, I think the answer to your questions will be split with an equal number of people liking each option.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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April 23rd, 2017 at 9:51:31 AM permalink
Are we talking free play the casino gives you? If so, it's not even close, MORE FREE PLAY.

The casinos rarely offer +EV games straight up, however with enough free play almost any game can become +EV, Even games like 6/5 job, bad slots and 6:5 BJ.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mamat
mamat
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April 23rd, 2017 at 3:20:56 PM permalink
I might have answered differently two years ago.

Looser payouts (with lots of beatable bonus games) preferred (over more free play...even $5K-8K/month).
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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April 23rd, 2017 at 3:37:22 PM permalink
Quote: mamat

I might have answered differently two years ago.

Looser payouts (with lots of beatable bonus games) preferred (over more free play...even $5K-8K/month).

People have said AP is dead compared to the "old days". I don't think it's better or worse, it's just different now.
I do think it's probably much worse for solo lower level VP and slot grinders.

The good casino promos here in Vegas have declined dramatically over the years.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
BobDancer
BobDancer
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April 24th, 2017 at 1:42:20 PM permalink
In video poker, you can predict the EV of the game and get a reasonable approximation on the benefits.

With that information, to me it's the sum of the two that is important. I've played 98.5% games with more than 2% in up-front money. That's quite acceptable. I've stayed away from 99.7% games where there are no benefits at all. That's unacceptable.

Variance can be a factor if you're near the limits of your physical or psychological bankroll. Clearly some people handle variance better than others.
InTimeForSpace1
InTimeForSpace1
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April 24th, 2017 at 3:39:44 PM permalink
This is an either-or question. What about neither?

One can gamble in the now with his money; the other, in the long run with her time. But, they who can balance both, and avoid addiction, would have a much better time for their money at something, like scuba diving, which could challenge their reservedness.
Believers are the ones who keep at it long after they've been told it can't be done. On the other hand, the real experts shouldn't care about the crackpots. But, if the wrong answer begs the question, then the wrong question begs the answer.
mamat
mamat
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April 24th, 2017 at 4:40:59 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

People have said AP is dead compared to the "old days". I don't think it's better or worse, it's just different now.
I do think it's probably much worse for solo lower level VP and slot grinders.

The good casino promos here in Vegas have declined dramatically over the years.

Lower-level slots declined from 2009-2013 (and were much better before 2009 from what I've heard), but then 2014-2017 have much improved. Four 2016 games have taken the lower-level slot grinders by storm (I've hit jackpots on two of the four. Five-figure payouts are possible, but very rare.).

----
I didn't know squat about slots/VP in 1990-2007, and only played tables. Started playing VP in 2007 (when I put $1 in a machine at the Mirage, and hit Aces for $160). Didn't learn about bonus slots until 2009 (End of the "Indiana Jones" and "Star Wars" era. Beginning of UX).

The level of competition in slots in Vegas in 2017 is insanely high compared to 2009.

In the last two years visiting Vegas, the only way I made a decent daily rate ($700/day) was one visit when I drove to small casinos at weird hours in 2015. Only found 9 +EV plays in 40 casinos (not counting UX, 2016 games weren't out yet). There were about 10 even-EV games I played for fun...

In my Vegas visits now, I play more like a typical recreational gambler. I'm there to have fun, and usually lose a few thousand, or maybe break-even. I like to people-watch at the big casinos, and don't usually drive to the small ones.

Since I've been traveling around the US since early 2000s, I started looking for bonus slots in 2010 outside Vegas, and I found many easier situations. No place was as competitive as Vegas-circa-2010 (much less Vegas-circa-2017).

-----
Promotions outside Vegas:

West coast & east coast, there are 10+ casinos offering $5K+/month Free Play (regularly, without any special promotions).
One casino offers close to $10K/week Free Play (Very hard to maintain) - I've never tried for big mailers here.
Near Vegas, Arizona & California are both good.

Some casinos do $50K-100K giveaways every week with free cars.
And $1 million giveaways every year.

Why so much compared to Vegas?
Casinos are farther apart, and competing for business.
More money gambled in Indian casinos over the years (I think it's about 40-50% of total US gambling, last time I read a report).
Indian casinos competing for locals, who have a very good chance of giving the money back.

There is some crackdown on people visiting with Vegas IDs, and on heavy VP players trying to game mailers.
In 2010-2017, it still feels like casinos are finding their way through the balance of "good promotions/mailers" and "marketing that's too AP'able".

Some casinos have dramatically raised their FP offers, after nearby casinos raised theirs.
...so some casinos with bigger offers, are not experienced with them.

Some casinos adjusted their monitoring of big offers 5-10 years ago (e.g., FP offers might be recinded within 1-2 visits, if play is not appropriate), but others are newbies (and it takes them 1-5 years to catch up).

Other casinos reduced the size of their mailers 2X-4X (rare, 90% have been increasing in last 5 years). Or they steadfastly stuck with smaller amounts ($25-50/week max), choosing to compete by having better food or some other benefits.
Last edited by: mamat on Apr 24, 2017
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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April 24th, 2017 at 6:24:52 PM permalink
Right now, better FP. I've been running badddddd on the quarter JoB/NSUD. -8k in just over two weeks. I want to puke.... :-(~~~
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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April 24th, 2017 at 7:26:16 PM permalink
It's obvious society in general is better off with a higher return, while the casino is better off with free play to manipulate. People are less likely by far to win big early and leave when they're hooked on free play, or lose fast with little play fort that matter. Even with raised returns, slotwise there will still be a sharp difference on any machines they feel threatened, so what's the point.
I am a robot.
DRich
DRich
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April 24th, 2017 at 8:01:27 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

It's obvious society in general is better off with a higher return, while the casino is better off with free play to manipulate. People are less likely by far to win big early and leave when they're hooked on free play, or lose fast with little play fort that matter. Even with raised returns, slotwise there will still be a sharp difference on any machines they feel threatened, so what's the point.



That is crazy talk. If we all only played free play how would we be worse off?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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April 24th, 2017 at 8:48:14 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

That is crazy talk. If we all only played free play how would we be worse off?

Why dont you just answer your own question the way you think I would reply? Personally I think you know better and are trying to trick me into wasting my time with a 100 word response. I refuse.
I am a robot.
DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
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April 24th, 2017 at 9:18:19 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Why dont you just answer your own question the way you think I would reply? Personally I think you know better and are trying to trick me into wasting my time with a 100 word response. I refuse.



I think claiming that free play makes the general populace more likely to empty their wallets unwillingly is a little dubious. In my opinion the average gambler is a stop win, stop loss, or stop play, player so free play isn't going to change that. Of course free play ultimately hurts people susceptible to problem gambling, but I mean so does anything gambling related.

I also don't really think the concept of higher return is that useful in and of itself. The wages per hour, min wage, and variance of the game are all extremely important.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
bigplayer
bigplayer
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RSAxelWolf
May 19th, 2018 at 2:43:11 PM permalink
A lot of freeplay. You are not playing to beat the casino, you cannot ever beat a casino. You are playing to beat their marketing department and the casino is simply your tool for doing so. If freeplay is high enough you can beat a casino playing the worst game imaginable...even square slot players will have an edge.
garyt1957
garyt1957
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November 6th, 2019 at 3:49:26 PM permalink
Quote: mamat

I might have answered differently two years ago.

Looser payouts (with lots of beatable bonus games) preferred (over more free play...even $5K-8K/month).



People actually get $5K a month freeplay? How much do they have to play to get that?
ChumpChange
ChumpChange 
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November 6th, 2019 at 10:29:41 PM permalink
If the machines are paying 86% to 93%, I'd say they aren't worth playing and I'd stick to the tables.
michael99000
michael99000
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November 6th, 2019 at 10:53:31 PM permalink
I almost forgot, the early Nathan era actually produced a few decent threads.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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November 6th, 2019 at 11:10:04 PM permalink
Quote: garyt1957

People actually get $5K a month freeplay?

Well, they claim to. I think they also get free rooms, free meals, free women, free airfare and free ice in their drinks.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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November 6th, 2019 at 11:21:21 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Well, they claim to. I think they also get free rooms, free meals, free women, free airfare and free ice in their drinks.

I have never been offered free women, perhaps you have to ask.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
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November 7th, 2019 at 5:48:53 AM permalink
Quote: garyt1957

People actually get $5K a month freeplay? How much do they have to play to get that?



I played one place where I got $3600 a WEEK plus RFB and other freebies. A couple others where I got $5k/month or better. Those are out there. But my participation in the conversation stops at confirming they exist.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
DRich
DRich
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November 7th, 2019 at 9:17:21 AM permalink
Quote: garyt1957

People actually get $5K a month freeplay? How much do they have to play to get that?



One of our casinos gives out a maximum of $2,000 a week in free play for the top players. Those players are generally over $100,000 coin in a week.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
garyt1957
garyt1957
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November 7th, 2019 at 9:32:34 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

One of our casinos gives out a maximum of $2,000 a week in free play for the top players. Those players are generally over $100,000 coin in a week.



Holy Cow!
DRich
DRich
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November 7th, 2019 at 9:49:49 AM permalink
Quote: garyt1957

Holy Cow!



A $5 denom video poker player will play $100,000 in about six hours.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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November 7th, 2019 at 6:49:07 PM permalink
I have 2 female hosts and would take either.
I am a robot.
stephencmarvin
stephencmarvin
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September 24th, 2020 at 10:56:07 PM permalink
Of course free plays.
Stephan M.
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