Nathan
Nathan
Joined: Sep 2, 2016
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December 10th, 2016 at 5:55:31 AM permalink
I remember a guy saying something like "In 2013, a $20 would yield my wife and I enough for dinner for both of us at a fine restaurant and movie and snacks for both of us. Now in 2013, a $20 is gone in about 2 minutes playing the same machines that paid us so well in 2013." Anyone else think that slots today are much tighter in 2016 than 2013?
Guy "won" less than his bet and the slot machine had the audacity to tell him he got a big win! SMH! Also, the Nintendo cartridge is so much more important than the Nintendo console. Without the cartridge, the Nintendo console is just a useless box.
sabre
sabre
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
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December 10th, 2016 at 6:30:52 AM permalink
No. 2003? Maybe. 1993? Very likely.
Mission146
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Mission146
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December 10th, 2016 at 6:42:22 AM permalink
I don't believe that the machines are becoming tighter, per se, just that they are becoming more expensive. I don't pretend to know what kind of machine you like to play, Nathan, but what I do know is that several new machines (especially at the penny denomination) don't necessarily have the capability for you to directly choose how many lines you wish to play and how much per line.

For example, if you're satisfied playing twenty lines at a penny per line, then you would only be looking at a $0.20 total bet. American Original machines, the old school ones, are such that you only have to bet a total of a penny if you can tolerate that, (YUCK!) by betting only one line at one credit per line!

However, many of the newer machines that are coming out seem to be more expensive. You have games like Yardbirds, Antony & Cleopatra and whatever the hell else is on those banks upon which I believe the minimum bet is $0.50 for all games. You have some Quick Hit machine with what appears to be three games on it (but a bonus that applies to all three) that is a, 'Penny,' machine, but the only possible bet amounts are $1.00, $2.00 and $3.00. You have Buffalo Gold upon which the minimum bet is $0.60, and the new Buffalo machines with the Progressive upon which the minimum bet is $0.75 (as I recall) and one must bet $3.00 or $3.75 to qualify for the Progressive. (Also, as I recall)

There are countless other examples of games that start at $0.50, or more, I'm not listing them all.

Again, I don't know if you tend to prefer new machines over old, but if you do, those machines probably have a higher minimum bet than they did just a few years ago. The result of that, of course, is that you pop in a twenty and are essentially starting out with fewer spins, so sometimes the $20 goes away faster than it used to.
Vultures can't be choosers.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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December 10th, 2016 at 6:46:19 AM permalink
Wouldn't bet against it. Minimum payouts don't protect the players because the law can be changed like was the case in Maryland. They'll bottom out until they ask for a new bottom.

The $20 anecdote I don't take to be literal. You might not know the setting there was, but could make three assumptions. They're better, they're about the same, or they're worse. It would be a strange thing having a casino loosen up without a marketing campaign and seeking credit, wanting to gain credibility over competitors. Even being the same is less likely. People don't expect casinos to change their ways, they expect casinos to make more money without increased demand, by keeping more. Slots slip sliding away is always the expectation unless being proven wrong.

There might be people who think casinos cheat on video poker, but I've never suspected it. If the pay table is the same, I expect probability constant, and fair as always. You don't think the same on slots, because you expect a good thing to not last. They're worse off to begin with, but casinos can hide behind the secrecy and volatility. If you after years have any expectations about worst case scenarios, nightmare scenarios, when it seems different, either you were always wrong assuming or you were right, but now the assumptions are wrong. If you really had choices, things might be different, but slot holds seem identically any place you might travel.

It's best to give up on slots, not to be lured by small investments and big rewards. If you designed a mouse trap, you would not want the mouse getting that cheese, and especially not getting it without being caught. Slots are not much about gambling anymore but paying to see pictures compulsively, never satisfying.
Looks like sh!t just got imaginary!
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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December 10th, 2016 at 7:17:51 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I don't believe that the machines are becoming tighter, per se, just that they are becoming more expensive. I don't pretend to know what kind of machine you like to play, Nathan, but what I do know is that several new machines (especially at the penny denomination) don't necessarily have the capability for you to directly choose how many lines you wish to play and how much per line.

Even quarter and dollar machines are like that now. $10 minimum.
Looks like sh!t just got imaginary!
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
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Thanks for this post from:
onenickelmiracle
December 10th, 2016 at 8:27:13 AM permalink
I think casinos spoiled it for themselves with outlandish expectations in the wake of transitioning from coins to TITO. They had to see a huge uptick in profits when they moved away from nickel minimums to pennies as well, both of which happened mostly simultaneously. The spins per hour had to go up an incredible percentage, maybe double or more, once people weren't hand feeding the machines. No more hopper fills. Many fewer hand pays.

The casinos got to get rid of buckets, many slot techs, some tellers. All of those things contributed to a huge upsurge in slot revenue. Against that went the more expensive leases and electronic cabinet purchases, and a big jump in royalty pricing with all the tie-in themes for movies, cartoons, celebrities rather than gaming centric but royalty free symbols and themes.

I don't know what the net wound up being over, say, the last 20 years on all that, but my impression is that both the casinos and the distributors made a lot of money in the way up ,then stagnated the last 5 or so years comparatively. The cabinets and royalties keep going up, but the gains from TITO and pennies with aggregate minimums have leveled out.

So now, they have to find more ways to improve the bottom line, and it seems to come in 2 places; lower overall return to player, and many fewer and lower big wins. I am sourly amused every time I hit a "big win" on machines, specifically wms and bally, that gets all the bells and whistles for a 3x total bet win. I suppose on a 50 line machine, with a single.line pay, that.amounts to 150x that line bet, and that's how it's justified, but it doesn't pay doodly-squat when you're forced to play all 50 lines.

/minirant
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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December 10th, 2016 at 10:47:37 AM permalink
As far as Buffalo go, some of those with the massive progressive, rumor is they can be as low as 84%. Someone recently on a forum mentioned they saw the setting on one of those. It was completely ignored by a poster from the business who commented, so I'm led to believe it could be so true nobody wants to speak of it. It was either the one with the must hits or a WAP, don't remember.
Looks like sh!t just got imaginary!
IndyJeffrey
IndyJeffrey
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December 10th, 2016 at 10:49:46 AM permalink
Are there laws mandating minimum returns? What's to prevent a casino from a 20% return machine sprinkled throughout the property?
Mission146
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Mission146
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December 10th, 2016 at 11:02:35 AM permalink
There are many state laws mandating minimum returns, and those laws apply to any individual machine in the state in question.
Vultures can't be choosers.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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December 10th, 2016 at 11:26:27 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

There are many state laws mandating minimum returns, and those laws apply to any individual machine in the state in question.

If casinos want to lower them, leave a suitcase, write those checks, bada bing, bada boom, state minimum now lower.
Looks like sh!t just got imaginary!

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