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lilredrooster
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November 3rd, 2016 at 4:30:39 AM permalink
Resorts World Casino says the machine malfunctioned. Instead they offered her a steak dinner.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/11/02/woman-denied-slot-machine-win/93206170/
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sabre
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November 3rd, 2016 at 5:35:57 AM permalink
Hopefully she'll get what she deserves in the end. Which is nothing.
DJTeddyBear
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November 3rd, 2016 at 5:43:58 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

Hopefully she'll get what she deserves in the end. Which is nothing.

Really? Nothing?

Her lawyer thinks otherwise:
Quote:

Bookman contacted an attorney, Alan Ripka, who says she should at least be entitled to the machine's maximum pay out of $6,500.

Seems reasonable to me. Saves face all the way around...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
CrystalMath
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November 3rd, 2016 at 5:58:32 AM permalink
Of course, we don't get to see the combination that she landed on, because then we wouldn't feel bad for her. Instead, we'd say "look, you lined up 4 tens on line 5, seems like you should get paid $2.25." She knows that the combination is not worth 43 million (2^32 pennies).
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onenickelmiracle
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November 3rd, 2016 at 6:35:19 AM permalink
Hahaha. A casino has another state tested, gaming lab tested machine malfunction, and one of the cattle thinks they went from throwing money away to hitting the big one. I personally am tired of these articles, because they're all the same. They make the player look stupid, fail to tar the image of a casino that has a two-bit machine, and keeps the player broke as before. That casino makes millions and millions, and yes, the player should get the so-called maximum jackpot, just as payment for cruelty. As it stands, the casino and gaming have no incentive to do anything to make sure this doesn't reoccur. Even cases where there is not a malfunction, but a player is not paid, there is zero incentive.

Things similar to malfunctions, painters paint your house instead of a neighboring house while you're away, and you have to pay them. An atm does not dispense your money, yet, the money is taken from your account, with no recourse.

I have witnessed TWO so-called malfunctions on small hundred dollar jackpots and the people were shafted! The wins were legitimate, the only thing that appeared to malfunction was them being awarded credits.

Another malfunction at Mahoning Valley Race Course

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/26626-another-malfunction-at-mahoning-valley-race-course/2/
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Wizard
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November 3rd, 2016 at 7:04:27 AM permalink
The dreaded unsigned 32-bit integer bug strikes again.

That article says her alleged win was $42,949,672.76. That is 4,294,967,276 pennies.

2^32 = 4,294,967,296. That is 20 more than what she won.

What likely happened is she had a balance a little over zero. Then something strange happened and somehow her balance should have been -20. Maybe she made a bet more than her balance somehow.

A common way to store a number on a computer, which is never supposed to go negative, is with an unsigned integer. These integer commonly have a maximum size of 32 bits, or 4,294,967,296. What happens if you try to store a negative number in them is they wrap around. 0-1 = 4,294,967,295.

What will likely happen, if she is smart, is she will get an attorney to argue the machine didn't "malfunction" but did exactly what the programmers told it to do. It will get settled out of court for something more than a steak dinner. Around a million would be my guess.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Romes
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November 3rd, 2016 at 7:07:33 AM permalink
Wouldn't the argument be that it wasn't supposed to let her bet more than her balance though, in order to get the wrap around effect? Wouldn't that be the malfunction?
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lilredrooster
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November 3rd, 2016 at 7:17:29 AM permalink
Imagine that had happened at an overseas online casino. Fat chance she'd get a dime.
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Wizard
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November 3rd, 2016 at 7:26:12 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Wouldn't the argument be that it wasn't supposed to let her bet more than her balance though, in order to get the wrap around effect? Wouldn't that be the malfunction?



Yes, of course. If I were on a jury I would easily take the casino's side. However, a jury might not be people like me. They might be people seeing a struggling single mom vs. a greedy casino or slot machine maker worth hundreds of millions. Such a case may not be decided on facts but in the jury selection. That is why I think whoever she sues will be nervous and settle.
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DJTeddyBear
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November 3rd, 2016 at 7:27:41 AM permalink
Mike -

Thanks for that 32 bit explanation. Makes a LOT of sense.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
darkoz
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November 3rd, 2016 at 7:29:39 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Wouldn't the argument be that it wasn't supposed to let her bet more than her balance though, in order to get the wrap around effect? Wouldn't that be the malfunction?



Point and counterpoint. Perhaps that particular game does allow it although i dont think so

There r some machines that allow a wager at the last amount bet when u cash out with less than that wager still in the machine. So lets say u bet $2 and after that win have $1 in the slot u get the option of wagering $1 at the $2 level or cashing out
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MrV
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November 3rd, 2016 at 8:10:15 AM permalink
In suing, she claims she is due what the machine said she won.

The most ANY player can EVER win on that machine is $6500.

Obviously then, as the $42M is well above the maximum possible win, the machine malfunctioned.

No way is she entitled to $42M.

The casino could, as a show of good will and to help staunch a flood of negative publicity, offer her $6500, a steak dinner, and some freeplay.
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RS
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November 3rd, 2016 at 9:34:00 AM permalink
AFAIK, the "maximum payout" on machines is NOT the maximum payout, although I could be mistaken. Look on a video reel slot, where it says something like "maximum payout of X credits". That refers to a single-line maximum pay, not the overall payout on a single wager. You could go into a bonus round, hit that maximum payout, and keep spinning in the bonus round, I believe. (DRich? Mike?)



If you really wanted to argue it, it could be argued that the machine did not malfunction and performed exactly as the code was written. If the machine was put back into the exact same circumstances as it was when the lady supposedly hit for $42M+, would it trigger the same payout? If so, it was not a malfunction. I'm not talking about the programmers' intention, but what the code is set to do.

If on the other hand, there was a power spike which fried one of the units in the machine (can that even happen?) or a drink spilled which broke a piece in the machine or something like that, and that caused the $42M+ payout, then that'd obviously be a malfunction.
Ibeatyouraces
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November 3rd, 2016 at 9:45:04 AM permalink
Maybe it's because of the old arcade glitch that caused malfunctions on level 256 like the kill screens on Pac-Man, Galaga, Donkey Kong and a few others...

http://errors.wikia.com/wiki/Kill_screen
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onenickelmiracle
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November 3rd, 2016 at 10:00:12 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Maybe it's because of the old arcade glitch that caused malfunctions on level 256 like the kill screens on Pac-Man, Galaga, Donkey Kong and a few others...

http://errors.wikia.com/wiki/Kill_screen


Watch the documentary King of Kong, Fistful of quarters. Very entertaining and humorous.
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Wizard
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November 3rd, 2016 at 10:11:00 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Maybe it's because of the old arcade glitch that caused malfunctions on level 256 like the kill screens on Pac-Man, Galaga, Donkey Kong and a few others...

http://errors.wikia.com/wiki/Kill_screen



The same bug except that bug was based on an 8-bit integer, whose range is 0 to 255. These day there isn't such a memory shortage so 64-bit integers are the norm.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
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November 3rd, 2016 at 10:11:33 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Watch the documentary King of Kong, Fistful of quarters. Very entertaining and humorous.


I have. That's where I learned about the kill screens.
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Wizard
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November 3rd, 2016 at 10:13:13 AM permalink
Quote: RS

If you really wanted to argue it, it could be argued that the machine did not malfunction and performed exactly as the code was written. If the machine was put back into the exact same circumstances as it was when the lady supposedly hit for $42M+, would it trigger the same payout? If so, it was not a malfunction. I'm not talking about the programmers' intention, but what the code is set to do.



If she finds a competent attorney, I'm sure he will argue exactly that. In other words, it was a human error, not the machine. The point has some merit too. I would still find in favor of the casino, as I think most here, but I doubt they would cull a jury from WoV members.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
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November 3rd, 2016 at 10:14:51 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The same bug except that bug was based on an 8-bit integer, whose range is 0 to 255. These day there isn't such a memory shortage so 64-bit integers are the norm.


I'm certain of that. These days, glitches can be found in any type of "video game." You guys should watch how speed runners and TAS (Tool Assisted Speed run) destroy them. Even brand new games. These guys are good!
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DRich
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November 3rd, 2016 at 10:21:47 AM permalink
Quote: RS

AFAIK, the "maximum payout" on machines is NOT the maximum payout, although I could be mistaken.


If you really wanted to argue it, it could be argued that the machine did not malfunction and performed exactly as the code was written.



Yes, many machines can pay more than the topline jackpot on a particular game because of bonus rounds.

I have very mixed opinions on this subject. What is a malfunction? As RS said, is it a malfunction if the machines does exactly what is was instructed to? I think in this case it was just a software bug and the player did not hit anything that qualify's her for a big payout.

Had the computer showed winning jackpots symbols, even if that was not the intention, I would argue to pay her for whatever the symbols paid based on the paytable because that was how it was programmed.

I would love to be in the position of having the three Megabucks symbols line up even if they claimed it to be a malfunction. I believe I could convince a jury that computer software is "instructions", and the machine followed the instructions that it was given and therefore it is not a malfunction. It may be an unintended consequence, but not a malfunction.

I disagree with Mike on this particular lady's case. I don't think she will get a big settlement. I think they will end up settling on the top prize of the machine which I think was around $6500.
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DJTeddyBear
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November 3rd, 2016 at 10:33:42 AM permalink
I doubt that it matters much, but the machine was a VLT - video lottery terminal. Looks like an ordinary slot machine, but it ain't.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
rxwine
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November 3rd, 2016 at 1:15:30 PM permalink
Concerning malfunctions, suppose somehow the machine underpaid you a legal win.

Since a malfunction voids a win even a win below what you should have gotten, couldn't they just take back the whole win because it's a malfunction?

My point is, in such a case, the casino would probably give the player the legal amount even with such a malfunction. But the casino being able to decide which malfunction they are going to act on seems bogus.

In other words, if you won $500 but only got a $100, they probably would make up the difference. But of course, they don't want to honor every malfunction. But that makes it arbitrary to me, not law.
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Greasyjohn
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November 3rd, 2016 at 1:45:13 PM permalink
If there were a glitch at your bank and you deposited $10 and the bank accidently printed out that you made a $10,000 deposit, would you be entitled to the extra $9,990? Of course not.

The story of this woman's experience is poorly written. What symbols were on the pay line and what would the correct payoff be? That is the salient question. Everything else is just trying to get something for nothing. And the fact that the lady was unemployed is also irrelevant. But to be unemployed and playing slots machines in a casino?
Ibeatyouraces
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November 3rd, 2016 at 1:55:46 PM permalink
It was just featured on Inside Edition.
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darrellg
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November 3rd, 2016 at 2:37:03 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

What will likely happen, if she is smart, is she will get an attorney to argue the machine didn't "malfunction" but did exactly what the programmers told it to do. It will get settled out of court for something more than a steak dinner. Around a million would be my guess.


If that were the case, the liability would be on the manufacturer of the machine or the regulator that approved it, both of which represented the max payout as $6500 to the casino when the machine was sold.
lilredrooster
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November 3rd, 2016 at 2:58:17 PM permalink
The machine had a disclaimer posted on it that says "Malfunction Voids All Pays and Plays." And so they think that protects them fully against an incident such as this. But I don't think so. Before going into surgery your Doctor will insist that you sign a long document that he basically hopes will protect him against legal action if something goes wrong in surgery. But will it protect him if he makes a mistake that causes a patient's death, suffering or infection or illness? No way Jose.
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someone
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November 3rd, 2016 at 6:03:58 PM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

If there were a glitch at your bank and you deposited $10 and the bank accidently printed out that you made a $10,000 deposit, would you be entitled to the extra $9,990? Of course not.



If someone make a deposit at a bank and walk away with a receipt from the bank that says they deposited $10,000, it really should take extraordinary evidence for the bank to be able to drop the deposited amount down to $10.

Whilst most people here look at the figure of $42M and acknowledge it was almost certainly a glitch/bug, the burden really should be on the casino to prove it was a malfunction.

The burden of trying to prove anything technical to an audience of disinterested laymen is always difficult so I am guessing the casino will end up trying to settle.

That said IANAL so who knows what will happen.
MrV
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November 3rd, 2016 at 6:40:56 PM permalink
IAAL.

No way in hell will the aggrieved slot player get a fourty-two million dollar award via trial or abitration.

As for your bank example: aren't all of the moves of tellers recorded on video and preserved for awhile by the bank?

If so, that would provide clear and convincing proof: either it shows a customer depositing that amount, or it doesn't.
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Wizardofnothing
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November 3rd, 2016 at 7:44:14 PM permalink
I'd lay 10-1 its not anywhere even remotely close too e million-if bet max is100k and that's a stretch
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darkoz
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November 3rd, 2016 at 8:38:24 PM permalink
I would think the casino just has to show the given value of all the symbol wins for that spin at that bet amount (id lay money she wasnt betting max) and then show that the winning amount doesnt add up to 42 million. And bang u have an obvious argument for a jury why its a malfunction
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Ibeatyouraces
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November 3rd, 2016 at 8:41:08 PM permalink
They did say she win $2.25 on the actual spin. So to get that AND a steak dinner is above expectation.
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billryan
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November 3rd, 2016 at 10:54:47 PM permalink
But she is unemployed. Someone start a GoFundMe for the poor dear.
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darkoz
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November 4th, 2016 at 1:40:46 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

But she is unemployed. Someone start a GoFundMe for the poor dear.



Unemployed does not necessarily mean without funds. She Could b getting unemployment or child support.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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November 4th, 2016 at 1:46:10 AM permalink
I will say if her attorneys argument is the machine takes ur money wen u lose u should recieve money wen u win as he is quoted in the article this woman will not win even a steak dinner. Perhaps only a legal bill
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GWAE
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November 4th, 2016 at 5:45:18 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Unemployed does not necessarily mean without funds. She Could b getting unemployment or child support.



or have 19 million in the bank and chooses to not work. I love how people just jump to conclusions.
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darkoz
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November 4th, 2016 at 6:25:06 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

or have 19 million in the bank and chooses to not work. I love how people just jump to conclusions.



Exactly. Although no one who patronizes resorts world casino has millions lol
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Wizard
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November 4th, 2016 at 6:34:21 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I disagree with Mike on this particular lady's case. I don't think she will get a big settlement. I think they will end up settling on the top prize of the machine which I think was around $6500.



Another poster said that was all she was asking for, in which case I agree she will get that. I think she would get a lot more if her attorneys were more aggressive.
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Greasyjohn
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November 4th, 2016 at 6:51:55 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

or have 19 million in the bank and chooses to not work. I love how people just jump to conclusions.



If people are rich and do not have to work they are never referred to as "unemployed."
Greasyjohn
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November 4th, 2016 at 6:52:13 AM permalink
Regarding system glitches let me recount this little story: I had just come back from a vacation to Vegas and had $7000 in cash. I went to Chase bank to deposit the funds. There was a fairly long line so I decided to use the ATM machine. I put in the $7000 and the machine spit it back out to me with a message that said only 40 bills at a time could be deposited. I canceled the deposit and went through the procedure to get a new deposit started and ran into a couple of touchscreen problems. Then I separated the money into two approximately even stacks and submitted the two stacks into the machine. But when I got my receipt it stated that I had only made a $3500 deposit. I went to the bank manager and explained to him what happened and he started the procedure for an audit. I had to wait about four or five days, as I recall, until the issue was resolved. I made at least one call during the waiting period, and to be honest I was a little nervous about the outcome. (It wouldn't take much imagination for a scam artist to say that he made a $7000 deposit when he only deposited $3500.) But they found all my money. As I recall, the bank mentioned that when they check the ATM machine for funds in circumstances like this there are two employees present. Perhaps there are other safeguards like internal receipts and computer entries that verify accuracy.
Last edited by: Greasyjohn on Nov 4, 2016
MrV
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November 4th, 2016 at 7:39:42 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Another poster said that was all she was asking for, in which case I agree she will get that. I think she would get a lot more if her attorneys were more aggressive.



Under what legal theory?

Clearly there is no contractual breach: the machine clearly stated that a malfunction voids all pays, and the stated pay table shows the highest possible payout: 6500.

Nor is there a tort claim; inter alia I see no damages to her caused by the malfunction.

This is unlike the situation in, let's say, a 737 where the flight computer malfunctions, shows false readings, the pilot reasonably relies upon it and then crashes because of it.
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RS
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November 4th, 2016 at 9:26:42 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Under what legal theory?

Clearly there is no contractual breach: the machine clearly stated that a malfunction voids all pays, and the stated pay table shows the highest possible payout: 6500.

Nor is there a tort claim; inter alia I see no damages to her caused by the malfunction.

This is unlike the situation in, let's say, a 737 where the flight computer malfunctions, shows false readings, the pilot reasonably relies upon it and then crashes because of it.



Read earlier in the thread. It can be argued it was not a malfunction, but acted exactly how the code was programmed to run the game. Certainly the $42M was not an intended outcome from the programmers or game developer, but that's not necessary. A programming error is a human error, not a malfunction. (Although, I'm not sure how malfunction is defined.)

Like I said earlier, just because the highest payout listed may be $6500, that doesn't mean the max payout is necessarily $6500, due to bonus rounds. $6500 would represent a maximum payout on a single line, not a single wager. If it's a single line game without bonus rounds, like a double diamond mechanical reel, then that's different, since the top payout is the maximum payout for a single wager. But considering it says she won $2.25 or something, I'm thinking it's a video reel with multiple lines and bonus rounds.
Mission146
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November 4th, 2016 at 9:56:49 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Romes

Wouldn't the argument be that it wasn't supposed to let her bet more than her balance though, in order to get the wrap around effect? Wouldn't that be the malfunction?



Yes, of course. If I were on a jury I would easily take the casino's side. However, a jury might not be people like me. They might be people seeing a struggling single mom vs. a greedy casino or slot machine maker worth hundreds of millions. Such a case may not be decided on facts but in the jury selection. That is why I think whoever she sues will be nervous and settle.



Even more than that, it is going to cost a non-zero amount of money and time for the casino to defend the case, so they may settle for some amount less than they think they could end up paying in fees. You also mention the jury, so there is a bit of an unknown when it comes to what the jury pool would look like. Quite possible the casino settles for some amount more than a steak dinner...at least it's a known amount.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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November 4th, 2016 at 9:58:39 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Romes

Wouldn't the argument be that it wasn't supposed to let her bet more than her balance though, in order to get the wrap around effect? Wouldn't that be the malfunction?



Point and counterpoint. Perhaps that particular game does allow it although i dont think so

There r some machines that allow a wager at the last amount bet when u cash out with less than that wager still in the machine. So lets say u bet $2 and after that win have $1 in the slot u get the option of wagering $1 at the $2 level or cashing out



Are you talking about machines with the, 'Wager Saver,' feature? Those are totally different, there is some wheel that comes up with the green portion (play again) representative more-or-less (possibly exactly) of the amount of money you have relative to the desired bet. If it lands in the green, you get another spin at the original bet level, if it lands in the white, you have 0 credits.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Doc
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November 4th, 2016 at 11:18:08 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

If people are rich and do not have to work they are never referred to as "unemployed."


I am not "rich," but I do frequently refer to myself as being "delightfully unemployed," as a reference to being retired and not choosing to work for any income.
AxelWolf
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November 4th, 2016 at 3:44:48 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Under what legal theory?

Clearly there is no contractual breach: the machine clearly stated that a malfunction voids all pays, and the stated pay table shows the highest possible payout: 6500.

Nor is there a tort claim; inter alia I see no damages to her caused by the malfunction.

This is unlike the situation in, let's say, a 737 where the flight computer malfunctions, shows false readings, the pilot reasonably relies upon it and then crashes because of it.

Let's not compare gambling and casinos to anything else. It's not like anything else. They are designed to do nothing but take money from people, now under the guise of entertainment.

There's emotional damage IMO.

They should have to operate at a much higher standard. They should be punished for this to help insure it doesn't keep happening for whatever reason. IMO People unknowingly get cheated hundreds of thousands per year from underpaying machines. They originally claimed people were mistaking. A lady was getting cheated often enough that she filmed it. Others noticed the same thing. What happened when she showed them the video? They yelled at her saying, she can't do that. They claimed it wasn't anything to worry about.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Nathan
Nathan
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November 9th, 2016 at 5:43:12 AM permalink
They should just pay the woman the $6500. People are dropping $10,000 bets constantly. They will have gotten back that $6500 and more with a single $10,000 bet.
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
MrV
MrV
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November 9th, 2016 at 7:48:34 AM permalink
Ah, but it's "the principle of the thing."

Even rich guys will bend over to pick up a penny off the sidewalk.
"What, me worry?"
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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November 9th, 2016 at 8:16:21 AM permalink
All I can think of is that there is a single mother of four on public support putting money into a slot machine. I hope President Trump outlaws this!
billryan
billryan
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November 9th, 2016 at 11:53:34 AM permalink
Quote: Nathan

They should just pay the woman the $6500. People are dropping $10,000 bets constantly. They will have gotten back that $6500 and more with a single $10,000 bet.



Nobody is dropping $10,000 a bet at this place. It's a racing with fake table e games and video lottery machines.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
tringlomane
tringlomane
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November 9th, 2016 at 12:06:10 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Nobody is dropping $10,000 a bet at this place. It's a racing with fake table e games and video lottery machines.



Correct, but I think it's one the highest grossing casino/racinos in the country. The net win was $69.7M last month over 5548 machines. $6500 is 5 minutes of profit for them. They can afford it if they felt like it. It is probably worth more than $6500 in PR value. A steak dinner was a joke.
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