Thread Rating:

Poll

10 votes (47.61%)
7 votes (33.33%)
No votes (0%)
6 votes (28.57%)
No votes (0%)
1 vote (4.76%)
2 votes (9.52%)
1 vote (4.76%)
2 votes (9.52%)
1 vote (4.76%)

21 members have voted

Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 31st, 2016 at 1:21:04 PM permalink
I've been asked for 14 years to update my Las Vegas slot machine survey. Now the big boss is asking about it.

As you may know, I used par sheets to do the 2002 survey. The games I surveyed are very hard to find any longer. It would be almost out of the question to repeat the survey the way I did it before.

So, what I'm thinking of doing is taking a blend of video poker and video keno to gauge how loose the "slots" are at any given casino. For those not familiar with the terminology, in the business the word a "slot" refers to just about anything that plugs in. If you want to refer to things with spinning reels, you would say "reels."

I also feel very strongly in the correlation between how loose/tight a casino sets its video poker and video keno to its reels. In other words, I can say with a straight face that a survey based on video keno and video poker would be about as accurate as the 2002 survey.

My question is would you respect a survey like my 2002 one if it were based on video keno and video poker but presented as a ranking of machines in general? Keep in mind the survey is not meant for extremely skilled players but the recreational player who will plop down anywhere and play anything.

I welcome all questions and comments. Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
blackhole
blackhole
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 59
Joined: May 7, 2016
July 31st, 2016 at 1:34:35 PM permalink
If the survey is for the recreational player who will plop down anywhere and play anything; why would they need any survey about any game? Couldn't a concerned player about percentage holds just read the monthly listings in magazines like Casino Player?
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 31st, 2016 at 1:54:14 PM permalink
Quote: blackhole

If the survey is for the recreational player who will plop down anywhere and play anything; why would they need any survey about any game? Couldn't a concerned player about percentage holds just read the monthly listings in magazines like Casino Player?



Maybe such a player would at least appreciate a general list. For example, I don't shop around for cheap gas, but I would be interested to know any generalizations, like Shell tends to be cheaper than Exxon.

Casino Player publishes only groupings for Nevada, like the Strip, downtown, and "balance of county."
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
  • Threads: 264
  • Posts: 4032
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
July 31st, 2016 at 3:18:03 PM permalink
I think a smaller but very accurate survey of $ 1 slots on selected properties along the Strip would be very enlightening. As far as getting "par" sheets, I have no idea how you got them before and how you might be able to get them again.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 3540
Joined: Dec 28, 2014
July 31st, 2016 at 3:43:46 PM permalink
Generalizations like you mentioned sound good.

For example, I'd like to know how much tighter a brand new game like Game of Thrones compares to a generic 3-5 reel of the same denomination.
vegas
vegas
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 710
Joined: Apr 27, 2012
July 31st, 2016 at 8:03:09 PM permalink
How do you know a casino that offered good VP and keno pay tables would also offer good slots? Maybe they use slots to get the revenue lost by VP and Keno. It could be misleading to say the slots are loose just because the other games are loose.
50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability you'll get it wrong
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 31st, 2016 at 8:14:21 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

I'd like to know how much tighter a brand new game like Game of Thrones compares to a generic 3-5 reel of the same denomination.



Slots tied to a TV show or movie tend to pay around 85%, regardless of where the casino is. Generic slots tend to pay anywhere from 87% to 92%. So the difference will vary, but you're almost always better off to play a generic game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 31st, 2016 at 8:15:55 PM permalink
Quote: vegas

How do you know a casino that offered good VP and keno pay tables would also offer good slots? Maybe they use slots to get the revenue lost by VP and Keno. It could be misleading to say the slots are loose just because the other games are loose.



At the time I did the 2002 survey, the casinos at the top were the same ones with liberal video poker. Likewise those at the bottom were stingy with video poker. I didn't pay attention to video keno at the time. However, your point is well taken. I hate to make statements about correlation without hard proof.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
  • Threads: 212
  • Posts: 8277
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
July 31st, 2016 at 10:01:15 PM permalink
Could you find out which slots have the lowest maximum return, then find out who has the highest percentage of them?

Reality sucks where penny machines from ten or more years ago were set where hl dollar slots are now. Saw an advertisement at the Meadows where they stated having "the loosest slots. Period." Then as you stated, saw almost all of their VP job and ddb 6/5. Next shocker was seeing Three Kings, which Micky Crim vouched here could be 92% max, in their HL room in dime denomination with a min. bet $2.50 and max bet $12.50. I find this kind of sickening such high bets with not as good of odds as I would expect to be fair.

Which brings me to another problem. Rivers is not nearly as bad Meadows with quarter VP 8/5, except the bar worse, but they don't have many machines available, so what does that mean in such a survey?
I am a robot.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
August 1st, 2016 at 9:29:29 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Could you find out which slots have the lowest maximum return, then find out who has the highest percentage of them?



No. In Nevada casinos only need to stay about 75%. They have to report actual return percentages to Gaming, but that information gets averaged together with other casinos for reports to the public.

The more I think about this, I think I'm going to do separate surveys for video poker and video keno and call them as such.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Romes
Romes
  • Threads: 29
  • Posts: 5607
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
August 1st, 2016 at 9:47:51 AM permalink
I don't think that's too bad a "rule of thumb" for someone traveling from casino to casino... but as an actual survey hosted on your site I feel the information is just too unreliable. Unless you got a sampling size of casinos/VP/keno/slots to verify at least a couple times that it was fairly accurate, I probably wouldn't trust the information =/. I've just seen too many times in a casino if you move 3 VP/slot machines to the left it's an entirely different payback. How would you even go about selecting the VP/keno? Would it be a spot check? Would you check ALL of the VP/keno in the place and make an average of some sort?

When it comes to slots, it's sad they can get away with not letting you know what you're playing.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
August 1st, 2016 at 10:57:04 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

I don't think that's too bad a "rule of thumb" for someone traveling from casino to casino... but as an actual survey hosted on your site I feel the information is just too unreliable. Unless you got a sampling size of casinos/VP/keno/slots to verify at least a couple times that it was fairly accurate, I probably wouldn't trust the information =/. I've just seen too many times in a casino if you move 3 VP/slot machines to the left it's an entirely different payback. How would you even go about selecting the VP/keno? Would it be a spot check? Would you check ALL of the VP/keno in the place and make an average of some sort?



I would do random checks. For example, five machines in each casino. I would make no effort to sniff out the best machines.

Quote:

When it comes to slots, it's sad they can get away with not letting you know what you're playing.



I agree 100%. I applaud the UK law where the return percentage has to be disclosed on the machine itself or in the help screens.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
August 1st, 2016 at 11:59:41 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I would do random checks. For example, five machines in each casino. I would make no effort to sniff out the best machines.



The results would be more statistically reliable if the sample size were determined by the number of slots in each joint. Checking five in "The Cromwell" might be overkill while five in the Venetian could be way too few to produce reliable results.

The total number of machines in each joint is published somewhere, right?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
August 1st, 2016 at 12:04:05 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

The results would be more statistically reliable if the sample size were determined by the number of slots in each joint. Checking five in "The Cromwell" might be overkill while five in the Venetian could be way too few to produce reliable results.



This could make for a textbook statistics problem. Yes, I think the Gaming Control Board publishes the number of slots per casino. Maybe I could do something like 1 per 1,000, with a minimum of 5.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Romes
Romes
  • Threads: 29
  • Posts: 5607
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
August 1st, 2016 at 12:11:27 PM permalink
To me, for "reliable" information this would fall in to a divide and conquer strategy. I would break them down to The Strip, Downtown, then North, South, East, and West... possibly doing the other bigger city destinations if your survey were to reach that far. I think the numbers, much like their table games and VP will change pending these locations. Mid strip, tough to find 9/6 JoB... Drive 15 minutes to Boulder Highway.. tough not to find 9/6 JoB.

After that I would do a set percentage of total machines (as you're suggesting). The problem is it's such a beast of a feat to tackle... Without putting in a crazy amount of effort the data is unreliable, but the problem then becomes you need to put in a crazy amount of effort =P.

Just get Axel to pay his minions $50 per casino to do all the scouting for you =).
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
  • Threads: 37
  • Posts: 3616
Joined: May 22, 2013
August 1st, 2016 at 12:45:55 PM permalink
Yea, that's it.

Publish the Wolf of Vegas survey!

I likes it precious....
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
August 1st, 2016 at 3:16:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

This could make for a textbook statistics problem. Yes, I think the Gaming Control Board publishes the number of slots per casino. Maybe I could do something like 1 per 1,000, with a minimum of 5.



I don't think any casino in Nevada has more than 5000 machines so the 1 per 1000 seems superfluous..
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mooseton
Mooseton
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 620
Joined: Sep 6, 2010
August 1st, 2016 at 3:36:20 PM permalink
First off, I love this idea! Perhaps with pics and machine numbers sent the entire forum could help out with this? And lastly, I think it would probably need to be more like 1 sample per 300ish slots with a minimum of 5 samples with a note of preferring different slot banks for samples instead of 5 in a row. Just bouncing some ideas. Maybe some simple excel table could be used for sending samples if that idea takes off?
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
  • Jump to: