When does the slot determine the win?
Is the outcome determined when the button is pressed to initiate the spin sequence, or
is the outcome determined at some later time after the reels have started spinning?
If I understand the new slots, the outcome is solely determined by the electronics. The reels are purely there for visuals for the player. However, when I am playing a slot machine, I can hit the button at any time to stop the reels sooner than they would have stopped.
When I use the button to stop the reels, am I getting a different outcome than I would have gotten had I let the reels stop on their own?
I am not asking if I am changing my chances of a win. I know that stopping the reels early has zero effect on that. I'm just curious if the outcome is determined at the initiation, which would mean the outcome is the exact same whether or not I stop the reels early, or if the outcome is determined at some later point, which might mean I get a different outcome depending on when I stop the reels.
Quote: RaleighCraps
When I use the button to stop the reels, am I getting a different outcome than I would have gotten had I let the reels stop on their own?
No. The moment you hit the button to start the game, the random numbers are chosen... the spinning of the wheels is just to build excitement.. you are not changing the final result by hitting the button a second time to stop the wheels.
Quote: rsactuaryNo. The moment you hit the button to start the game, the random numbers are chosen... the spinning of the wheels is just to build excitement.. you are not changing the final result by hitting the button a second time to stop the wheels.
Not to be argumentative but because I know slot machines don't always do this let me state:
Some slots are affected by the second hit that stops the reels spinning.
And some don't matter.
You can tell if the reels are a "slower" spin and when you stop the machine because something passes by if that symbol stays on the machine then you definitely had an effect by stopping the machine.
There are other machines where when you stop the reels at the symbol you see, either a) the symbol completely disappears mysteriously or b) the reels pick up speed on the second push so you miss the symbol anyway. These machines do not have any decision made when you push the button a second time.
I know a lot of people are going to jump on me for this but I am just annoyed at all the people who spout they know these machines when I have seen the evidence they are wrong. So go ahead, guys and beat me up on this.
Quote: darkoz
I know a lot of people are going to jump on me for this but I am just annoyed at all the people who spout they know these machines when I have seen the evidence they are wrong. So go ahead, guys and beat me up on this.
I am not going to jump on you but I will say that I have programmed games for many large slot machine manufacturers and that I haven't seen one in the last 15 years where stopping the reels early gives a different result.
Quote: darkozNot to be argumentative but because I know slot machines don't always do this let me state:
Some slots are affected by the second hit that stops the reels spinning.
And some don't matter.
You can tell if the reels are a "slower" spin and when you stop the machine because something passes by if that symbol stays on the machine then you definitely had an effect by stopping the machine.
There are other machines where when you stop the reels at the symbol you see, either a) the symbol completely disappears mysteriously or b) the reels pick up speed on the second push so you miss the symbol anyway. These machines do not have any decision made when you push the button a second time.
I know a lot of people are going to jump on me for this but I am just annoyed at all the people who spout they know these machines when I have seen the evidence they are wrong. So go ahead, guys and beat me up on this.
You're wrong. You thinking you see something doesn't make it true. Even when you stop the reels, it still goes to a predetermined outcome. You cannot cause it to win by stopping reels when it wasn't going to.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13You're wrong. You thinking you see something doesn't make it true. Even when you stop the reels, it still goes to a predetermined outcome. You cannot cause it to win by stopping reels when it wasn't going to.
ZCore13
So if I find a slot machine where I can provide video evidence this is true? I am so confident I can prove this I will go with a video phone (and hoping the casino doesn't stop me) show that I am not full of crap.
Then when everyone sees it what will you say? Just because everyone sees it does not make it true?
Also if you win free spins on a bonus, do you win a predetermined amount of money or is every spin a new random event?
Are the answers to these questions determined by the slot manufacture or the state gaming commission?
Are all those people who pull their slot card out of the machine when they hit a bonus, wasting their time trying to keep the casino from knowing about their winnings?
Quote: HunterhillPlease post the video as soon as you get it.You should be able to put the phone in your pocket and record with out any one noticing.
Certainly. I will be in AC near the end of the week.
Quote: zoobrewAre the amount of the bonus win also determined at the time the spin button is pressed? Lets says I have the choice of choosing A, B or C, will I win $10 no matter which letter I choose or does A=5, B=10, or C=20 and my choice determines the amount of the win.
Also if you win free spins on a bonus, do you win a predetermined amount of money or is every spin a new random event?
Are the answers to these questions determined by the slot manufacture or the state gaming commission?
Are all those people who pull their slot card out of the machine when they hit a bonus, wasting their time trying to keep the casino from knowing about their winnings?
I *believe* the answers are as follows (but not 100% sure):
The amount of the bonus win is NOT determined at the time of the spin (but whether you line up the symbols to get a bonus round is). I saw a Wiz article where he believed that if you made a choice in the bonus game and then it showed you the results from the other options afterwards, that it is a fair game and that your choice makes a difference in how much you win. If it doesn't show you the options that you didn't pick.. then it very well might be pre-determined.
I think every spin is a new random event in the bonus rounds as well.. although the reels might be different than the regular game (WMS reels are definitely different)
I would say that the answers to these questions are determined by the slot manufacturer, however a game wouldn't be approved by state gaming commission if it didn't meet minimum standards for payback etc.
From reading on here, I believe it used to be that removing your card kept winnings from being recorded, but that has all changed now.
Quote: zoobrewAre the amount of the bonus win also determined at the time the spin button is pressed? Lets says I have the choice of choosing A, B or C, will I win $10 no matter which letter I choose or does A=5, B=10, or C=20 and my choice determines the amount of the win.
Also if you win free spins on a bonus, do you win a predetermined amount of money or is every spin a new random event?
Are the answers to these questions determined by the slot manufacture or the state gaming commission?
Are all those people who pull their slot card out of the machine when they hit a bonus, wasting their time trying to keep the casino from knowing about their winnings?
Bonus rounds can be a different story. Some are predetermined, some you actually do have choice in what happens and the long term payouts are just based on statistical chances.
There was once a dragon themed slot where you got to go down a road in the bonus. Each section had 4 choices. On the first section of 4, There were 3 spots that let you advance to the next section. I think 3 out of 4 were good again. Then 2 and then 1. Choice made a difference. I like those kind of bonuses.
ZCore13
Is it possible that you can change the outcome of the symbols but not the pay?Quote: DRichI am not going to jump on you but I will say that I have programmed games for many large slot machine manufacturers and that I haven't seen one in the last 15 years where stopping the reels early gives a different result.
Ok that sounds strange let me see if I can explain. Lest say it normally takes 2 seconds for all the reels to stop if you don't stop it yourself.
Let's assume the slot chooses the NUMBER OF CREDITS within a RANGE that you will recive right when you hit spin(range 300 to 400 but not an exact amount ). Is it possible that they allow many different combinations of the pre determined amounts to appear in that 2 seconds, so you are actually changing the symbols and pays slightly but it doesn't matter because no matter what you will land within that range because that's the only possible combinations?
This is how I would set it up make it so you have SOME control, but nothing significant, I would make it 80% to 97% allow for 17% worth of control /skill if you just let it spin out you automatically receive 85%.
Quote: AxelWolfIs it possible that you can change the outcome of the symbols but not the pay?
I don't think being able to control when the reels stop is allowed in a slot machine - at least, not in Nevada:
Quote: Nevada Gaming Control Board Regulation 14.040(2)(b)For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.
I don't see how the bold part is possible if the player has any true control over when the reels stop.
Next time you are in a casino look at some slots that have stacked symbols ( like wild symbols) that have nearly instant auto stop (not IGT). It's like a long movie reel filled with many pre arranged pictures of stacked blocks. Sometimes they are even a 6 to 12 inch character (like a goddess or god)Quote: ThatDonGuyI don't think being able to control when the reels stop is allowed in a slot machine - at least, not in Nevada:
Quote: Nevada Gaming Control Board Regulation 14.040(2)(b)For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.
I don't see how the bold part is possible if the player has any true control over when the reels stop.
I cant explain well, but if you see the bottom of of a stacked wild (or whatever) coming down and quickly hit stop, the top stacked wild seemingly lands on the bottom payline often . However if you just sit and let it pass then it's unlikely you could have trapped it because now its gone and that block isn't coming back around.
I'M not clamming the payout outcome changes but something is happening there. Obviously it's not going to let you time wilds landing.
Quote: AxelWolfIs it possible that you can change the outcome of the symbols but not the pay?
I am not familiar with any that do that. Generally when you start the game the reel stops are what is chosen by the RNG. When you press the button to stop the reels a mechanical slot will continue to spin until that reel position is visible. A video slot will just change the next three symbols above the screen to the selected outcome and then drop those three symbols into the visible portion of the screen.
Quote: ThatDonGuyI don't think being able to control when the reels stop is allowed in a slot machine - at least, not in Nevada:
Quote: Nevada Gaming Control Board Regulation 14.040(2)(b)For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.
I don't see how the bold part is possible if the player has any true control over when the reels stop.
I'll agree that "not in Nevada". My understanding is that some jurisdictions allow (require?) a "skill stop" feature, which does affect the outcome.
... and Class II is completely different in other ways.
Quote: DieterQuote: ThatDonGuyI don't think being able to control when the reels stop is allowed in a slot machine - at least, not in Nevada:
Quote: Nevada Gaming Control Board Regulation 14.040(2)(b)For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.
I don't see how the bold part is possible if the player has any true control over when the reels stop.
I'll agree that "not in Nevada". My understanding is that some jurisdictions allow (require?) a "skill stop" feature, which does affect the outcome.
... and Class II is completely different in other ways.
Japanese casinos are "skill stop" machines, but trust me, they don't have any skill factor. You get to stop the reels, but everything is still pre-programmed at payout percentages and the stopping does not affect them. I imported, re-furbished and sold these machines. I could have made a killing if they were true skill stops. They are not. And there are none in the U.S. that allow skill to play.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I could have made a killing if they were true skill stops. They are not. And there are none in the U.S. that allow skill to play.
Then they're not skill stops, they're a manner of abbreviating the entertainment display of the game.
If it's a skill stop, you have a degree of control.
Quote: DieterThen they're not skill stops, they're a manner of abbreviating the entertainment display of the game.
If it's a skill stop, you have a degree of control.
Well you can say they are not skill stops, but that is their name. They are called skill stop slot machines. I guess the skill is pushing the 3 different buttons to stop the reels. There are some really fun games, but the skill is not in making winning combinations show up on the reels.
ZCore13
??? Save me/us from reading this thread again.Quote: rsactuaryWe never did get the video, did we?
False.Quote: WizardofnothingOp said he was going to post video evidence of this next time he went to Ac - for you axel- even though I he to retread the thread to find out
I went back and skimmed everything and I can't find where the OP said anything of the sort.
However, Darkoz promised to show video proof of something (Can't remember if it's his bonus predicting theory or being able to stop wilds on the screen) the next time he was in AC. IIRC he unknowingly passed you on the boardwalk in AC recently and has been there a number of times, however I can't find the video. Perhaps I missed the link or something.
Quote: darkozSo if I find a slot machine where I can provide video evidence this is true? I am so confident I can prove this I will go with a video phone (and hoping the casino doesn't stop me) show that I am not full of crap.
Then when everyone sees it what will you say? Just because everyone sees it does not make it true?
I think this is the post regarding the video. Later, darkoz mentions that he is going to AC in a few weeks.
Quote: stinkinrichStinkin rich
Do you even like stinkin rich?
I copied and pasted it below without all the other parts of the reply (hence the #3 tag).
As to question #3: I did indeed video tape my controlling the stops and upon a frame by frame analysis using a video editor determined I was wrong. (Yeah, I was conveniently remaining silent on that one but you got me, damn! My bad!)
You were looking for an angle .... that's what GOOD gamblers do , a way to reduce house edge . Keep on keepin on !
I would time the button depression after the first reel stopped on its own (of a five reel machine) so that the second and third reels may have been affected or stopped on its own (they stop so fast) but the fourth and fifth reels would clearly be seen to have been interrupted in their spin.
By showing the images of the 4th and 5th spin did not change as they were coming down, that would prove that the spin could be affected by the stop (that is the symbol if predetermined could not have been on-screen every single time I stopped early as the RNG would have no knowledge of when I was going to stop the spinning symbols and the first reel would have already landed upon its "predetermined outcome") thereby proving that the win or loss would be affected.
However upon a frame by frame analysis, I saw the symbols on the fourth and fifth reels actually morph. It was a damn good illusion. At regular speed it looks like I caught the symbols I was attempting to catch. Once I saw the symbols morph that made it clear they were changing to match the predetermined outcome of the RNG.
I'm certain I'm not the first scientist (and I use the term scientist loosely here) who has had his intended claims rebuffed by the evidence.
Perhaps I can get an article in Scientific American or something.
Case closed on that one.Quote: darkozSince there seems to be the interest, I videotaped (is that even correct since we use digital files today) 3 games I was certain the images stopped precisely when I hit the button.
I would time the button depression after the first reel stopped on its own (of a five reel machine) so that the second and third reels may have been affected or stopped on its own (they stop so fast) but the fourth and fifth reels would clearly be seen to have been interrupted in their spin.
By showing the images of the 4th and 5th spin did not change as they were coming down, that would prove that the spin could be affected by the stop (that is the symbol if predetermined could not have been on-screen every single time I stopped early as the RNG would have no knowledge of when I was going to stop the spinning symbols and the first reel would have already landed upon its "predetermined outcome") thereby proving that the win or loss would be affected.
However upon a frame by frame analysis, I saw the symbols on the fourth and fifth reels actually morph. It was a damn good illusion. At regular speed it looks like I caught the symbols I was attempting to catch. Once I saw the symbols morph that made it clear they were changing to match the predetermined outcome of the RNG.
I'm certain I'm not the first scientist (and I use the term scientist loosely here) who has had his intended claims rebuffed by the evidence.
Perhaps I can get an article in Scientific American or something.
Let's move on to the other slot you mentioned where the bonus round is predictable but can't be taken advantage of. I have a feeling "his (your)intended claims will be rebuffed by the evidence." on that as well.
My theory is.... either they are not predictable, or they can, and there's a way to exploit the situation.
There's certain machines that the bonus round CAN be predictable but I assure you they can be beaten.
BTW Did you ever get to the bottom of that slot machine freezing glitch situation?
Quote: AxelWolfCase closed on that one.
Let's move on to the other slot you mentioned where the bonus round is predictable but can't be taken advantage of. I have a feeling "his (your)intended claims will be rebuffed by the evidence." on that as well.
My theory is.... either they are not predictable, or they can, and there's a way to exploit the situation.
There's certain machines that the bonus round CAN be predictable but I assure you they can be beaten.
BTW Did you ever get to the bottom of that slot machine freezing glitch situation?
To answer the first, I am not sure how I could go about proving or disproving the bonus round predictions without thousands of man-hours. The other issue was a simple method of video'ing ten minutes of spins.
As for the second issue, I took your explanation about the glitch as the most sensible. That a central server was causing the glitch and it would hit different machines, if I understood your hypothesis correctly. But I haven't done any further research into it.
if it takes thousands of man hours how the hell did you figure it out in the first place? That seems extreme.Quote: darkozTo answer the first, I am not sure how I could go about proving or disproving the bonus round predictions without thousands of man-hours. The other issue was a simple method of video'ing ten minutes of spins.
As for the second issue, I took your explanation about the glitch as the most sensible. That a central server was causing the glitch and it would hit different machines, if I understood your hypothesis correctly. But I haven't done any further research into it.
If it's not AP'able then just post up the name of the machine or send a PM and I'll look at it. There could be a simple explanation as to why It seems predictable as there has been in the other 2 cases. I'm trying to think of a situation that would have a predictable Bonus round and it wouldn't be exploitable. I can't really think of one without coming up with some wild stuff that they probably don't even have.
As for my theory about the machine that freezes, you would have to figure out if they even have a central server.
Quote: AxelWolfif it takes thousands of man hours how the hell did you figure it out in the first place? That seems extreme.
If it's not AP'able then just post up the name of the machine or send a PM and I'll look at it. There could be a simple explanation as to why It seems predictable as there has been in the other 2 cases. I'm trying to think of a situation that would have a predictable Bonus round and it wouldn't be exploitable. I can't really think of one without coming up with some wild stuff that they probably don't even have.
As for my theory about the machine that freezes, you would have to figure out if they even have a central server.
I have played the machine for thousands of man hours but the original intention was not to exploit the game. I was playing for extended periods of time, months, and it became more and more obvious to me. Any attempt to prove it would require a large data set as simply predicting a bonus round was coming a few times could be explained as getting lucky. I would have to do it repeatedly over thousands of spins. It isn't an exact science as I mentioned previously.
Aside from curiosity, I am not that interested in following up on the central server issue. I have a busy schedule (even my off time is busy, got to keep up with family and the latest movies). Your explanation makes more sense than switching chips from one machine to the other.
Quote: RogerKintThis sounds like the 6 reel G deluxe machines like Dean Martin's Vegas Shindig. They'll hesitate, as the spin button is pressed, if there's a bonus round/scare or big win coming.
The Ace Invaders game on the IGT platform has a noticeable delay after hitting the draw button if you are going to get a bunch of Aces. The longer the pause the more Aces coming. It is very noticeable if you play it a lot and actually add somes excitement and anticipation.
Quote: darkozSince there seems to be the interest, I videotaped (is that even correct since we use digital files today) 3 games I was certain the images stopped precisely when I hit the button.
I would time the button depression after the first reel stopped on its own (of a five reel machine) so that the second and third reels may have been affected or stopped on its own (they stop so fast) but the fourth and fifth reels would clearly be seen to have been interrupted in their spin.
By showing the images of the 4th and 5th spin did not change as they were coming down, that would prove that the spin could be affected by the stop (that is the symbol if predetermined could not have been on-screen every single time I stopped early as the RNG would have no knowledge of when I was going to stop the spinning symbols and the first reel would have already landed upon its "predetermined outcome") thereby proving that the win or loss would be affected.
However upon a frame by frame analysis, I saw the symbols on the fourth and fifth reels actually morph. It was a damn good illusion. At regular speed it looks like I caught the symbols I was attempting to catch. Once I saw the symbols morph that made it clear they were changing to match the predetermined outcome of the RNG.
I'm certain I'm not the first scientist (and I use the term scientist loosely here) who has had his intended claims rebuffed by the evidence.
Perhaps I can get an article in Scientific American or something.
Props to you on admitting you were wrong. That doesn't happen much on the internet.
In the "rules" section of the Walking Dead game it even states that stopping the wheels have no effect on the game. There's also a CDC Bonus where you have 3 choices for the amount of free spins. When you pick one ,it shows what's behind the other two. The rules also state that player participation has no effect on the number of spins won and it's strictly random, yet people refuse to believe they don't have a say. I've even had people tell me they have a system for determining where the higher spins are.
At Caesars in Canada they have signs on the machines that say "Stopping of the wheels has no effect on the outcome of the spin"
It's easy to believe until you see it in black and white. I don't know how they believe it with low returns. When I had the sickness, machines paid twice as good as now, so twice as easy to believe. It's so powerful, the time I believed I could stop the film, or the dragons, I still kind of think back to when I had believed and wonder. Casinos were so different then. But today, they're crazy and I'm just stupid sometimes. That's one thing I used to like about Aristocrats, couldn't stop reels, and now they attract the nutcases.Quote: GarytI get into this with people all the time. I play the Walking Dead game a lot and I always stop the wheels when I get two bonus wheels. Three are needed to get the bonus. If I hit the bonus, people will say "Nice stop" or "Nice catch". When I tell them it doesn't change anything they don't believe it. I just do it cause I don't want to wait to see if I'll hit a bonus.
In the "rules" section of the Walking Dead game it even states that stopping the wheels have no effect on the game. There's also a CDC Bonus where you have 3 choices for the amount of free spins. When you pick one ,it shows what's behind the other two. The rules also state that player participation has no effect on the number of spins won and it's strictly random, yet people refuse to believe they don't have a say. I've even had people tell me they have a system for determining where the higher spins are.
At Caesars in Canada they have signs on the machines that say "Stopping of the wheels has no effect on the outcome of the spin"
Quote: onenickelmiracleThe reels stops are programmed to make it look like stopping helps. Usually the WMS G+ games are the ones people have convinced themselves they can make themselves win. I even think the animation jiggles sometimes to make it seem like the stop worked. Many wouldn't play this brand of slots if they knew for sure you can't beat the game.
I get a kick out of watching people play WMS G+ games. Some of this people will start wacking their screens so hard I think for sure they're going to break there finger. Not only do they believe they are altering the results of the game but the harder they hit the screen the bigger the payout will be. Then when they do get the bonus you can see them sit back in their seat and say to themselves "yeah I did that. I'm really good at these slot machines."
Quote: GarytAnother thing I tell people is, what about the machines that signal you'll get the bonus before they even spin? I'm thinking of Red Phoenix, Tiki something, and an Oriental themed game where the bird, etc moves ,winks etc telling you a bonus is coming before the wheels even spin. The oriental game even says "Good luck is coming your way", then spins and you get the bonus. How could that happen if the outcome isn't decided the minute you hit the button?
Good point, Gary. That is some good food for thought. I have read a rumor that on Walking Dead, a bonus is coming when the Zombies all turn to look at you.
