Mission146
Mission146
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November 20th, 2013 at 7:02:16 AM permalink
Greetings!

Out of the goodness of my otherwise black heart, (j/k) I'd like to share an advantage slot play I just discovered today.

Manufacturer: Bally

Machines: Persian Nights & Money Vault (Possibly Others, Only Ones at WI, though)***

***Money Vault might not actually be called that, didn't have my pen on me...

How the Game Works:

1.) Non-Progressive
2.) Free Games, but I never hit any.
3.) Semi-Locking Wilds. Wilds come in groups of three, when you see Wilds, the next spin will see the Wilds drop one space on the reel.*

Remember, slots are free to watch, I'm always looking for something.

I was standing a few paces behind a lady playing one of these games when I noticed the way that the Wilds dropped. For some reason, she didn't get how that worked (apparently) and ticketed out leaving the machine. So, you might think I am suggesting just to look for the Wilds...

No. It gets better.

I noticed that she had only been betting $0.60/spin, so I switched that to a Max Bet of $3.00/spin, and the reel assignments changed completely! However, when I went back to $0.60/spin, the Wilds re-appeared where they were before I changed denominations!

After playing that $0.60 spin, I switched denominations on the machine looking for other Wilds left behind, I then repeated that process with the other two similar machines. Out of fifteen possible plays, seven of them saw some Wilds left behind on the appropriate denomination, and $20 turned into $50 in a real hurry!

Could you make a career out of it? No. Are you likely to get a huge hit? No. But, as a +ER play, this thing is rock solid.

TIPS:

1.) You can change denominations without paying for a spin, there will be a notice that the reel assignments are switching based on the credits bet. Therefore, anytime you see one of these machines, pop in a $20 and check all of the assignments for free. If there's nothing there, simply ticket your $20 back out.

2.) Remember that every Wild drops a level on the next play, so if you see a Wild only in the bottom position of the reel, that's no good, because it's going to disappear when you make the spin.

3.) If you see a Wild in the top position of a reel (which I did, twice) that is going to drop and turn into two Wilds (Top/Middle) on the next spin, then three Wilds (All) the spin after that, then two Wilds (Middle, Bottom) and finally just a Wild on the bottom.

4.) If you find a machine with Wilds left on multiple reels, (I did, once, unfortunately, the fourth reel Wilds were already on the middle/bottom setting, so I only got a Free Wild on the bottom) that's obviously huge.

5.) Happy hunting! I wish there were more of these, but there were only three total machines of this nature, I scoured the building looking!

I'm looking for these with my Free Play when I go to Vegas, though, I'll tell you that right now.

EDIT: I can't say for sure that fifth reel Wilds would really be worth that much, absent other Wilds, because you'd still have to string four in a row symbols together. I'm probably still going to play last reel Wilds only, though, (as well as all others) for the time being.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizard
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November 20th, 2013 at 9:32:35 AM permalink
Good stuff! I will look for these games my next casino visit, which will probably be on Friday or Saturday, and report back.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MrRalph
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November 20th, 2013 at 9:34:05 AM permalink
I will be there this Friday through Monday. I will look and let you know what I find. I also can tell you I never find any of the quick hits there anywhere close to a + EV
1arrowheaddr
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November 20th, 2013 at 9:41:03 AM permalink
You should delete this!!! You gave too much information.
randomperson
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November 20th, 2013 at 1:37:42 PM permalink
Quote: 1arrowheaddr

You should delete this!!! You gave too much information.



I hope this is a joke since this machine is a joke.
Ibeatyouraces
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November 20th, 2013 at 1:43:16 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
teddys
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November 20th, 2013 at 2:27:30 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I was finally able to get on a Quick Strike machine today with a minor jackpot at $49.12. Bought in for $5 and used free play on it and hit a couple of bonus rounds with free spins. Nailed it at $49.56 and cashed out $104.96.

You meat Quick Hits? I hit two today for $96 each and still lost $80.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Ibeatyouraces
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November 20th, 2013 at 2:38:05 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
AxelWolf
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November 20th, 2013 at 2:53:45 PM permalink
What did you start them at?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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November 20th, 2013 at 3:08:42 PM permalink
Quote: 1arrowheaddr

You should delete this!!! You gave too much information.



The information will have a greater cumulative effect in helping people on this board than will hurt me by picking off the machines at WI at the times I just happen to also be there!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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November 20th, 2013 at 3:10:50 PM permalink
Quote: randomperson

I hope this is a joke since this machine is a joke.



What's wrong with it? There aren't very many different symbols, I also noticed, base hit rate around 50%, if not in excess of 50%. Like I said, this is a solid play.

You look at how much time goes into Video Poker played at an advantage and the hourly earnings, I wanted to study the way these machines behave in order to report. From now on, I could knock all three machines out in under two minutes, every trip, I imagine the hourly on that is probably pretty darn good.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
mickeycrimm
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November 20th, 2013 at 3:22:10 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

What's wrong with it? There aren't very many different symbols, I also noticed, base hit rate around 50%, if not in excess of 50%. Like I said, this is a solid play.

You look at how much time goes into Video Poker played at an advantage and the hourly earnings, I wanted to study the way these machines behave in order to report. From now on, I could knock all three machines out in under two minutes, every trip, I imagine the hourly on that is probably pretty darn good.



A video poker play or a live poker game may be where I'm spending the bulk of my time in a casino. But if there is anything else to pick on in the place I'll be picking on it. I don't care how small it is. I have to walk right by it going to or from whatever my main play is in the joint. A play like Mission described, I'm going to check it going to and from the restroom, going to and from the buffet, going to and from the hotel room. I don't care if it's only worth $5 or $10 a day. It's extra cashback to me.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
randomperson
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November 20th, 2013 at 4:24:49 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

What's wrong with it? There aren't very many different symbols, I also noticed, base hit rate around 50%, if not in excess of 50%. Like I said, this is a solid play.

You look at how much time goes into Video Poker played at an advantage and the hourly earnings, I wanted to study the way these machines behave in order to report. From now on, I could knock all three machines out in under two minutes, every trip, I imagine the hourly on that is probably pretty darn good.




I asked a friend recently that's checks these every day religiously whether he makes money on them and his guess was yes but he couldn't say for sure. The problem is that you can't do any math to prove you have an edge and you can't know you have an edge except in the perfect scenario when everything lines up. If the base game returns 85%, you don't even know whether certain locked wild combinations return greater than 85% saying nothing of whether they return above 100%. Why? Because locked wilds reduce the chances of getting a bonus and that may lower the ev of the game more than the wild increases it. Of course if you get a bunch of wilds in the first three columns, you always make money, but you might find that once a year if you check everyday.
Mission146
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November 20th, 2013 at 4:34:33 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

A video poker play or a live poker game may be where I'm spending the bulk of my time in a casino. But if there is anything else to pick on in the place I'll be picking on it. I don't care how small it is. I have to walk right by it going to or from whatever my main play is in the joint. A play like Mission described, I'm going to check it going to and from the restroom, going to and from the buffet, going to and from the hotel room. I don't care if it's only worth $5 or $10 a day. It's extra cashback to me.



That's the attitude that makes you a professional at machine play, and quite frankly, one of the best I've ever read who have posted on the subject. If I were a professional at this, and not merely a glorified ploppy who likes looking for low-risk advantage plays, I'd model myself after you.

Basically what you described is what I am going to do with this and already do with Rock Around the Clock. It's not worth camping out all hours to wait for someone to leave these Wilds behind, but it's worth checking if you don't have to go too far out of your way. Many slot players simply aren't going to notice how these Wilds operate, to be honest, I was quite surprised by it as I watched the machine being played...why is the fourth reel not spinning? Because that is the case, I don't think it will be at all rare to see situations like this.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
tringlomane
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November 20th, 2013 at 4:50:33 PM permalink
Quote: randomperson

I asked a friend recently that's checks these every day religiously whether he makes money on them and his guess was yes but he couldn't say for sure. The problem is that you can't do any math to prove you have an edge and you can't know you have an edge except in the perfect scenario when everything lines up. If the base game returns 85%, you don't even know whether certain locked wild combinations return greater than 85% saying nothing of whether they return above 100%. Why? Because locked wilds reduce the chances of getting a bonus and that may lower the ev of the game more than the wild increases it. Of course if you get a bunch of wilds in the first three columns, you always make money, but you might find that once a year if you check everyday.



Depends on the complete reel set of course, but when I have messed around with slot math, just adding the possibility of another wild on the reel set can greatly affect the return, much more than any other symbol. So if it's guaranteed to be there, it's even more prominent. Unless these things come up a lot, I would think it's likely +EV long term in many cases. Definitely on reel 3 or further left.
randomperson
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November 20th, 2013 at 4:55:03 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Depends on the complete reel set of course, but when I have messed around with slot math, just adding the possibility of another wild on the reel set can greatly affect the return, much more than any other symbol. So if it's guaranteed to be there, it's even more prominent. Unless these things come up a lot, I would think it's likely +EV long term in many cases. Definitely on reel 3 or further left.



Did you do this assuming that there are no bonus symbols within three spaces of any wilds, with a very rare but very profitable bonus? If you eliminate one reel from contention and you need three your odds to hit the bonus drop dramatically.

It would be interesting to see what affect that would have for different parameters.
tringlomane
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November 20th, 2013 at 5:13:50 PM permalink
Quote: randomperson

Did you do this assuming that there are no bonus symbols within three spaces of any wilds, with a very rare but very profitable bonus? If you eliminate one reel from contention and you need three your odds to hit the bonus drop dramatically.

It would be interesting to see what affect that would have for different parameters.



More like I assumed having a wild jacked up the line pays high enough to make it 100%+ without the possibility of a bonus. However, that might be too ambitious with only one wild since 2/3rds of the lines will pay some garbage like 50% (rough estimate of pays without a bonus chance). I'm making big guessimates on these numbers...well except the 50% one, that's somewhat standard with penny slots.
MathExtremist
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November 20th, 2013 at 5:45:25 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Good stuff! I will look for these games my next casino visit, which will probably be on Friday or Saturday, and report back.


I think he's referring to "Venice Nights" and "Money Works" -- both use the "Rolling Wilds" mechanic that fits the description. See it here:
http://ballytech.com/games/play-mechanics
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
tringlomane
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November 20th, 2013 at 5:53:12 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I think he's referring to "Venice Nights" and "Money Works" -- both use the "Rolling Wilds" mechanic that fits the description. See it here:
http://ballytech.com/games/play-mechanics



I remember Money Works being advertised here in St. Louis on TV...it's already gone though... :(
mickeycrimm
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November 20th, 2013 at 5:58:27 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

That's the attitude that makes you a professional at machine play, and quite frankly, one of the best I've ever read who have posted on the subject. If I were a professional at this, and not merely a glorified ploppy who likes looking for low-risk advantage plays, I'd model myself after you.

Basically what you described is what I am going to do with this and already do with Rock Around the Clock. It's not worth camping out all hours to wait for someone to leave these Wilds behind, but it's worth checking if you don't have to go too far out of your way. Many slot players simply aren't going to notice how these Wilds operate, to be honest, I was quite surprised by it as I watched the machine being played...why is the fourth reel not spinning? Because that is the case, I don't think it will be at all rare to see situations like this.



Thanks for the complement, Mission. We have some doubters as to the viability of your play. It won't take much of an empirical study to tell the tale.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
Mission146
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November 20th, 2013 at 6:13:33 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I think he's referring to "Venice Nights" and "Money Works" -- both use the "Rolling Wilds" mechanic that fits the description. See it here:
http://ballytech.com/games/play-mechanics



That's the one, got both names wrong...lol

Note to self: Always remember to carry a pen.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
tringlomane
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November 20th, 2013 at 7:16:34 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

Thanks for the complement, Mission. We have some doubters as to the viability of your play. It won't take much of an empirical study to tell the tale.



I doubt a little, but not very much. Mostly in the worst positions. And youre right, a smallish sample will point you in the right direction.

Quote: Mission146

That's the one, got both names wrong...lol

Note to self: Always remember to carry a pen.



I'm an amateur AP finder too. I've asked my g/f for a pen and pad a couple of times...oops
mickeycrimm
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November 21st, 2013 at 1:27:53 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

I doubt a little, but not very much. Mostly in the worst positions. And youre right, a smallish sample will point you in the right direction.
I'm an amateur AP finder too. I've asked my g/f for a pen and pad a couple of times...oops



AP equipment:

1 pen
1 3" X 5" pocket notebook
1 pocket calculator.

This is the dinosaur's way of doing it. I never leave home without them. The pen and notebook are in my upper right hand shirt pocket. The calculator is in my back right pants pocket. I buy it all at Wal-Mart for cheap. If you see a crazed looking man running down the street, that's me on my way to get a new pocket calculator because my last one quit working.

There's a lot of things I have to figure up right on the spot, especially with a progressive/banking type game. Wonging these games, whether I have a play or not is a combination of where the meter is, and how far along the banking phase is. I have to do the math right on the spot for some of these games. On some of the games I have an indice in the back of the pocket notebook that tells me where I'm at.

I also carry video poker strategies in the back of the notebook. I'm not too thrilled with using the manufactured strategy cards anymore. Even though I tried to keep them out of sight I've been asked by both gamblers and casino personnel what they are. Among other things in the notebook I always have a Wal-Mart shopping list working. I hate to shop Wal-Mart then get home and discover I've forgotten something. So I put it all on a list as I remember things I need. If I'm in a casino and get questioned about looking at something, or writing something down, in the notebook, I'll close it up, then open it back up to the Wal-Mart shopping list and say something like "I'm putting shaving cream on my Wal-Mart shopping list."

The front of the notebook is used for recording plays and what I won or lost on them. And I may be collecting empirical stats or some other data. The downside to this is I eventually use up all of the notebook and have to start over with a new one. Which means I have to write in again the video poker strategies and strategy indices in the back. But I recently put one of my indices in an email and g-mailed it to myself on the Android. It worked like a champ. It looks like that's the way I'm gonna go from now on.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
AxelWolf
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November 21st, 2013 at 3:30:18 AM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

AP equipment:

1 pen
1 3" X 5" pocket notebook
1 pocket calculator.

This is the dinosaur's way of doing it. I never leave home without them. The pen and notebook are in my upper right hand shirt pocket. The calculator is in my back right pants pocket. I buy it all at Wal-Mart for cheap. If you see a crazed looking man running down the street, that's me on my way to get a new pocket calculator because my last one quit working.

There's a lot of things I have to figure up right on the spot, especially with a progressive/banking type game. Wonging these games, whether I have a play or not is a combination of where the meter is, and how far along the banking phase is. I have to do the math right on the spot for some of these games. On some of the games I have an indice in the back of the pocket notebook that tells me where I'm at.

I also carry video poker strategies in the back of the notebook. I'm not too thrilled with using the manufactured strategy cards anymore. Even though I tried to keep them out of sight I've been asked by both gamblers and casino personnel what they are. Among other things in the notebook I always have a Wal-Mart shopping list working. I hate to shop Wal-Mart then get home and discover I've forgotten something. So I put it all on a list as I remember things I need. If I'm in a casino and get questioned about looking at something, or writing something down, in the notebook, I'll close it up, then open it back up to the Wal-Mart shopping list and say something like "I'm putting shaving cream on my Wal-Mart shopping list."

The front of the notebook is used for recording plays and what I won or lost on them. And I may be collecting empirical stats or some other data. The downside to this is I eventually use up all of the notebook and have to start over with a new one. Which means I have to write in again the video poker strategies and strategy indices in the back. But I recently put one of my indices in an email and g-mailed it to myself on the Android. It worked like a champ. It looks like that's the way I'm gonna go from now on.

Interesting ...Personaly I just wing it, I'm rarely wrong.

I don't have a need to remember exact names of things since rarely I post up about current AP's. I may tell partners however the exact name is not needed.

I agree about NOT cracking out strategy cards in the casino. Any mistakes I may make can't possibly cost me as much as a tap on the shoulder. If someone is making them kinds of mistakes they shouldn't be playing untill they are confident they know the strategy or have a big enough advantage it's not worth the time to look.

Nowadays my phone dose evrything but the dishes.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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November 25th, 2013 at 8:28:20 AM permalink
Just for a little update, I hit this yesterday and turned $20 into $30.

I started out with all Wilds on the fourth reel, which meant I was going to get the middle and bottom followed by bottom only at $0.30/spin. The person who had played prior actually had a nice little hit, so they must have left after that not realizing how the Wilds worked.

There was also the Wild on Middle/Bottom which meant I'd get bottom only at the $0.90/spin level. I had a winning spin, but it actually had nothing to do with that Wild symbol.

All things considered, about $4.00 out of the $10.00 was actually derived from the advantage portion of the play.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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December 3rd, 2013 at 6:37:12 AM permalink
Starting out with Wilds Top/Middle on the second reel, $1.50/bet, +$7.00.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
ChampagneFireball
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December 5th, 2013 at 10:48:43 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I agree about NOT cracking out strategy cards in the casino. Any mistakes I may make can't possibly cost me as much as a tap on the shoulder.



Not an AP, but I use strategy cards all time for video poker and never had a problem. Too many different games, too many different strategies for corner cases. I've even had print outs from WoO out when playing a new VP game. I think they make you look like an amateur. Would they really throw you out for using them?
GBV
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December 5th, 2013 at 12:10:11 PM permalink
Quote: ChampagneFireball

Not an AP, but I use strategy cards all time for video poker and never had a problem. Too many different games, too many different strategies for corner cases. I've even had print outs from WoO out when playing a new VP game. I think they make you look like an amateur. Would they really throw you out for using them?



Draw a picture of a sheep and some fish around the useful information. Look slightly mad. Murmur stuff about the zodiac and the alignments of the planets. I defy even the most paranoid pit critter to take further interest in your card.
darthxaos
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December 24th, 2013 at 3:34:02 AM permalink
Any other titles in this series "Rolling Wilds" besides those 2? I noticed that the "rolling wilds" name is not found on the machine itself (except in the help screen) but they both use the promotional line "Stacked Wilds On All 5 Reels"
darthxaos
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December 24th, 2013 at 3:37:27 AM permalink
Any other titles in this series besides Venice Nights and Money Works?

I noticed the "Rolling Wilds" logo doesn't appear on the attract screen but they both have the promo line "Stacked Wilds on All 5 Reels", there is also on the help screen a description of the mechanic
darthxaos
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December 24th, 2013 at 3:37:48 AM permalink
Any other titles in this series besides Venice Nights and Money Works?

I noticed the "Rolling Wilds" logo doesn't appear on the attract screen but they both have the promo line "Stacked Wilds on All 5 Reels", there is also on the help screen a description of the mechanic
AxelWolf
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December 24th, 2013 at 8:59:19 AM permalink
Quote: ChampagneFireball

Not an AP, but I use strategy cards all time for video poker and never had a problem. Too many different games, too many different strategies for corner cases. I've even had print outs from WoO out when playing a new VP game. I think they make you look like an amateur. Would they really throw you out for using them?

Probably not you. Depending on how often and high profile you are, they may be looking for any reason to give you the boot. I doubt they would tell you the reason. I just don't want to take that chance. If the game is something new and very difficult, and I don't have a choice other then to look at a card. I would have to think about the risk vs reward. A few places down town LV I would be comfortable in looking at one.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mickeycrimm
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December 24th, 2013 at 9:56:39 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Probably not you. Depending on how often and high profile you are, they may be looking for any reason to give you the boot. I doubt they would tell you the reason. I just don't want to take that chance. If the game is something new and very difficult, and I don't have a choice other then to look at a card. I would have to think about the risk vs reward. A few places down town LV I would be comfortable in looking at one.



You don't want to stick out like a sore thumb. I've seen people with 8 1/2 by 11 color coded sheets laying on the machine in front of them. This ain't to bright. I play so many different games I have to have reference material on me. But I put the strategies in my pocket notebook. Anybody asks I'm looking at my Walmart shopping list.

On the spin poker joker play in Ely I took Dancer's FPJW strategy card and cut the beginner's and intermediate strategy off. Then I folded the expert strategy in half, with non-joker hands on one side and joker hands on the other side. It fit very neatly in the palm of my hand so all I had to do was roll my palm up for a second to take a look.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
onenickelmiracle
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December 24th, 2013 at 6:37:38 PM permalink
I'll look out for these. Worst case, cheap entertainment, but I gamble anyways, so no harm.
I am a robot.
seattledice
seattledice
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December 29th, 2013 at 9:06:11 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146


How the Game Works:

1.) Non-Progressive
2.) Free Games, but I never hit any.
3.) Semi-Locking Wilds. Wilds come in groups of three, when you see Wilds, the next spin will see the Wilds drop one space on the reel.*

...


1.) You can change denominations without paying for a spin, there will be a notice that the reel assignments are switching based on the credits bet. Therefore, anytime you see one of these machines, pop in a $20 and check all of the assignments for free. If there's nothing there, simply ticket your $20 back out.

...


3.) If you see a Wild in the top position of a reel (which I did, twice) that is going to drop and turn into two Wilds (Top/Middle) on the next spin, then three Wilds (All) the spin after that, then two Wilds (Middle, Bottom) and finally just a Wild on the bottom.



I found Venice Nights at Tulalip (Indian casino in Washington) but it did not work the way you described. The machines here are penny slots, not multi-denom, with a 400 credit max bet. The wilds dropped automatically so the entire play happens on one "spin." There was no way anyone could leave the machine with wilds available for the next player. I'm fairly certain that I saw just a single wild drop down the reel, so it looks like you couldn't count on seeing three in a row either.

Maybe I'm missing something here, or maybe this is another "feature" of Washington's goofy gambling laws.
Mission146
Mission146
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December 29th, 2013 at 9:14:43 AM permalink
Quote: seattledice

I found Venice Nights at Tulalip (Indian casino in Washington) but it did not work the way you described. The machines here are penny slots, not multi-denom, with a 400 credit max bet. The wilds dropped automatically so the entire play happens on one "spin." There was no way anyone could leave the machine with wilds available for the next player. I'm fairly certain that I saw just a single wild drop down the reel, so it looks like you couldn't count on seeing three in a row either.

Maybe I'm missing something here, or maybe this is another "feature" of Washington's goofy gambling laws.



There could be different versions of the game, besides, doesn't Washington have Class II VLT's?

The machines here are not multi-denoms, they're pennies, just you can bet 30/60/90/150/300, but when you press the bet size, it switches the reel setting and only spins if it is on that bet size already. That was a $3.00 screw-up for me one day, except I won the spin. Since then, I start with the $0.30 ones, that way if I screw up and it is already set for 30 credits, I only spin for thirty cents.

Anyhow, I'm sorry it didn't work that way, but I can take pictures of the one I am talking about next time I see it at an advantage. I actually found one of the three total machines the other day with Two Wilds left, at the $0.30 bet, so two plays, but I lost $0.10. First reel, too, that was odd.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
seattledice
seattledice
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December 29th, 2013 at 9:47:26 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

There could be different versions of the game, besides, doesn't Washington have Class II VLT's?

The machines here are not multi-denoms, they're pennies, just you can bet 30/60/90/150/300, but when you press the bet size, it switches the reel setting and only spins if it is on that bet size already. That was a $3.00 screw-up for me one day, except I won the spin. Since then, I start with the $0.30 ones, that way if I screw up and it is already set for 30 credits, I only spin for thirty cents.

Anyhow, I'm sorry it didn't work that way, but I can take pictures of the one I am talking about next time I see it at an advantage. I actually found one of the three total machines the other day with Two Wilds left, at the $0.30 bet, so two plays, but I lost $0.10. First reel, too, that was odd.



Yeah - we have VLTs, and that's probably why the game plays differently here.
pew
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January 3rd, 2014 at 5:47:28 PM permalink
Yeah - we have VLTs, and that's probably why the game plays differently here.
I don't mean any disrespect but why would anyone who is savvy play class 2 machines?
AxelWolf
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January 3rd, 2014 at 6:08:04 PM permalink
Quote: pew

Yeah - we have VLTs, and that's probably why the game plays differently here.
I don't mean any disrespect but why would anyone who is savvy play class 2 machines?

Is it possible that there may be an advantage even tho its a class II?
Some bonus banking situation? Possibly a promo that overcomes the crappy % they yield?

This leads me to a different question. I have not played much in Indian casinos and places that have class II. Do places like this often run good promotions other then drawings? Since they have such bad percentages for the players, you would think they would have a bigger promotional fund to work with. Have you heard of places doing anything crazy? Or are they just totally greedy?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
seattledice
seattledice
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January 3rd, 2014 at 6:48:15 PM permalink
Quote: pew

Yeah - we have VLTs, and that's probably why the game plays differently here.
I don't mean any disrespect but why would anyone who is savvy play class 2 machines?



No disrespect taken. I usually don't play slots - exceptions when I'm there with someone else and having no luck at craps and need to do SOMETHING with my time (which is one good reason to gamble alone.) I was curious whether this advantage would ever be possible here. I had actually forgotten that we only have VLTs here and even knowing that I wouldn't have guessed that the game mechanics would be adjusted like this. In hindsight it's kind of obvious. And it's not as much fun as playing VP and freaking people out by throwing away good hands.
GBV
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January 4th, 2014 at 2:52:36 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

There could be different versions of the game, besides, doesn't Washington have Class II VLT's?

The machines here are not multi-denoms, they're pennies, just you can bet 30/60/90/150/300, but when you press the bet size, it switches the reel setting and only spins if it is on that bet size already. That was a $3.00 screw-up for me one day, except I won the spin. Since then, I start with the $0.30 ones, that way if I screw up and it is already set for 30 credits, I only spin for thirty cents.

Anyhow, I'm sorry it didn't work that way, but I can take pictures of the one I am talking about next time I see it at an advantage. I actually found one of the three total machines the other day with Two Wilds left, at the $0.30 bet, so two plays, but I lost $0.10. First reel, too, that was odd.



It would really be better to leave this play to people who live in storm drains and have some practical use for the very small amounts of money this and silver mining generate.
AxelWolf
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January 4th, 2014 at 2:54:59 AM permalink
Quote: GBV

It would really be better to leave this play to people who live in storm drains and have some practical use for the very small amounts of money this and silver mining generate.

OUCH!
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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January 4th, 2014 at 7:46:26 AM permalink
Quote: GBV

It would really be better to leave this play to people who live in storm drains and have some practical use for the very small amounts of money this and silver mining generate.



GBV for Green Baize Vampire? John May? The one and only? Aren't you all about counting the Tie Bet on Baccarat?

http://apheat.net/2013/05/25/baccarat-tie-bet-flimflam/#more-3275

Quote: apheat

With a cut-card placement at 14 cards, if the AP places $1000 on the Tie bet whenever he has the edge, and at no other time, then the AP will earn, on average, $3.01 per 100 hands over the long run. The AP will earn $8.15 per 100 hands with the cut card placed at 12 cards.

It would be quite a sight for casino management to observe a player sitting patiently at a baccarat table 8 hours per day for over a month, then suddenly place a $1000 wager on the Tie bet. Yet, this appears to be what May’s is recommending for the AP. His equivocation is similar to someone winning the lottery reconciling their win into an hourly wage.



$8.15 per hundred hands with a $1,000 bet!?

I probably earn about $10 on average, per play, when I find this. The only difference is I don't have to sit around and backcount for, "Eight hours per day for over a month," to get my opportunity.

Ever walk through a casino? I expend barely more time on this play than it takes to walk through a casino. I pop a $20 into each machine, now, so that I can check all three of them at once. I would say that I find a play on one out of three machines on average and my average win is $10.00 (There's a bit of a range, depends how many Wilds are left behind, how many reels have them and at what bet amount), but my average is probably about $10 on this play.

Let's see, it takes me a minute to check the machines AND ticket out if they are not any good as well as less than a minute to actually make the play if it is good. Out of the three machines I check, on average, I find this play on one...so on average...this takes two minutes.

60/2 * 10 = $300/hour on this play.

See, so I get an average of $10 without expending any time and it translates to $300/hour. You get an average of $8.15 per hundred Baccarat hands, what does that translate to per hour?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxiomOfChoice
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January 4th, 2014 at 11:40:57 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

GBV for Green Baize Vampire? John May? The one and only? Aren't you all about counting the Tie Bet on Baccarat?

$8.15 per hundred hands with a $1,000 bet!?



Double ouch. :)
GBV
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January 8th, 2014 at 7:03:45 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

GBV for Green Baize Vampire? John May? The one and only? Aren't you all about counting the Tie Bet on Baccarat?

http://apheat.net/2013/05/25/baccarat-tie-bet-flimflam/#more-3275



$8.15 per hundred hands with a $1,000 bet!?

I probably earn about $10 on average, per play, when I find this. The only difference is I don't have to sit around and backcount for, "Eight hours per day for over a month," to get my opportunity.

Ever walk through a casino? I expend barely more time on this play than it takes to walk through a casino. I pop a $20 into each machine, now, so that I can check all three of them at once. I would say that I find a play on one out of three machines on average and my average win is $10.00 (There's a bit of a range, depends how many Wilds are left behind, how many reels have them and at what bet amount), but my average is probably about $10 on this play.

Let's see, it takes me a minute to check the machines AND ticket out if they are not any good as well as less than a minute to actually make the play if it is good. Out of the three machines I check, on average, I find this play on one...so on average...this takes two minutes.

60/2 * 10 = $300/hour on this play.

See, so I get an average of $10 without expending any time and it translates to $300/hour. You get an average of $8.15 per hundred Baccarat hands, what does that translate to per hour?



First, stop quoting Eliot f***ing Jacobson as a source. Your only source. You want to actually visit an advantage play site some time and see what people actually think of him.

Understand that at baccarat, $1000 is chump change. You can stick down to $100,000 in a positive expectation situation without any one batting an eyelid. That is kind of the point of baccarat. You get a low ROI for most advantage plays but a huge absolute return. Not to mention the fact that lowering the negative expectation from baccarat, let alone playing with an edge, allows a competent high-roller to make seven figures a year in comps, rebates and other kickbacks.

Also understand that your baccarat hourly earnings estimates are way out for the simple reason that you can leave the table any time an excess of whatever cards are dealt out, noticeably increasing your overall probability of encountering a favourable subset. I've tried to explain this patiently and politely to you previously but you just don't seem intellectually capable of understanding it. Read the above before very carefully before commenting on this issue again, or please stick to something you actually have direct experience of. And read something on the subject other than a free article from google, such as some of the primary sources in question, before shooting your mouth off again.

Now, following your logic on the slots play, essentially what you are saying is that if someone leaves 50 cents in a slot machine, and it takes you 10 seconds to use that credit up, you can make $180 an hour. No, you can't. You made 50 cents (minus vig). The play isn't scalable or repeatable without an additional time cost. If you really could make $300 an hour on a tiny bank using your angle you wouldn't be telling us about it. Almost nothing truly offers that type of return on zero investment.

Credits are often left in machines and some types of machines offer marginal positive expectation opportunities, this is very well known and has been since the birth of digitized slots. Homeless people really need that money. I can't see any intellectual reason for going over this old ground and no financial utility.
Mission146
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January 8th, 2014 at 8:39:03 AM permalink
Quote: GBV



Now, following your logic on the slots play, essentially what you are saying is that if someone leaves 50 cents in a slot machine, and it takes you 10 seconds to use that credit up, you can make $180 an hour. No, you can't. You made 50 cents (minus vig). The play isn't scalable or repeatable without an additional time cost. If you really could make $300 an hour on a tiny bank using your angle you wouldn't be telling us about it. Almost nothing truly offers that type of return on zero investment.

Credits are often left in machines and some types of machines offer marginal positive expectation opportunities, this is very well known and has been since the birth of digitized slots. Homeless people really need that money. I can't see any intellectual reason for going over this old ground and no financial utility.



Here's a deal: I'll read the information you proscribed before shooting my mouth off again if you read my OP before commenting on this play again.

Either that, or you're just making in inapt comparison.

This play has exactly nothing to do with someone leaving credits behind, I don't care if people are leaving credits behind or not, and I don't Buffalo-Hunt, unless there happens to be a few credits on the machine exactly beside where I am already sitting, anyway.

This play has to do with people leaving Wild symbols behind, kind of similar to leaving multipliers behind at Ultimate X. The way the machine works is that it has Stacked Wilds such that a Wild on the top line on Reel 2, for example, will automatically drop down and there will be Wilds on the top and middle line on Reel 2 on the following spin. The spin after that will have Wilds on all three Lines for that reel. The next spin will have Wilds on the middle and bottom, and then the next spin will have Wilds on the bottom only. Meanwhile, the other Reels continue to spin randomly, which presents the opportunity to rack up other Wilds on other reels and play through those, as well as the potential to have Wilds guaranteed on multiple reels for multiple spins...though that's fairly uncommon.

It's not zero investment, again, because you could lose on the overall play, though it's not very likely.

It's $300/hour for the time invested, on average, it's obviously not stand there and constantly make $300/hour. The only way it works is if someone leaves the Wilds behind, so obviously if nobody is playing (or if they play and don't leave Wilds behind), it's a worthless machine. But, I'm not going to stand behind someone and watch them because it is not worth that kind of time investment, but it's worth checking the machines when you are walking by them, anyway.

Finally, of course I would share this information because I cannot play every slot machine in the entire world, so there's a greater benefit in everyone knowing to keep an eye out for these machines to potentially make $10+ quick bucks than for me to keep it to myself.

Anyway, again, this play has nothing to do with buffalo-hunting. That's all. It's just a relatively harmless little slot play, which I described as, "Little," in the thread title, which you would think would indicate that I know it is little, so I really don't see why you felt the need to toss out insults in the first place.

MickeyCrimm says he'd stop and check them out on his way to and fro in a casino, and since he has been a career machines AP for many years, that's really all of the validation I need to know it's a decent enough play.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
randomperson
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January 8th, 2014 at 10:28:59 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Here's a deal: I'll read the information you proscribed before shooting my mouth off again if you read my OP before commenting on this play again.

Either that, or you're just making in inapt comparison.

This play has exactly nothing to do with someone leaving credits behind, I don't care if people are leaving credits behind or not, and I don't Buffalo-Hunt, unless there happens to be a few credits on the machine exactly beside where I am already sitting, anyway.

This play has to do with people leaving Wild symbols behind, kind of similar to leaving multipliers behind at Ultimate X. The way the machine works is that it has Stacked Wilds such that a Wild on the top line on Reel 2, for example, will automatically drop down and there will be Wilds on the top and middle line on Reel 2 on the following spin. The spin after that will have Wilds on all three Lines for that reel. The next spin will have Wilds on the middle and bottom, and then the next spin will have Wilds on the bottom only. Meanwhile, the other Reels continue to spin randomly, which presents the opportunity to rack up other Wilds on other reels and play through those, as well as the potential to have Wilds guaranteed on multiple reels for multiple spins...though that's fairly uncommon.

It's not zero investment, again, because you could lose on the overall play, though it's not very likely.

It's $300/hour for the time invested, on average, it's obviously not stand there and constantly make $300/hour. The only way it works is if someone leaves the Wilds behind, so obviously if nobody is playing (or if they play and don't leave Wilds behind), it's a worthless machine. But, I'm not going to stand behind someone and watch them because it is not worth that kind of time investment, but it's worth checking the machines when you are walking by them, anyway.

Finally, of course I would share this information because I cannot play every slot machine in the entire world, so there's a greater benefit in everyone knowing to keep an eye out for these machines to potentially make $10+ quick bucks than for me to keep it to myself.

Anyway, again, this play has nothing to do with buffalo-hunting. That's all. It's just a relatively harmless little slot play, which I described as, "Little," in the thread title, which you would think would indicate that I know it is little, so I really don't see why you felt the need to toss out insults in the first place.

MickeyCrimm says he'd stop and check them out on his way to and fro in a casino, and since he has been a career machines AP for many years, that's really all of the validation I need to know it's a decent enough play.



His argument was clearly an analogy. You took it literally.
mickeycrimm
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January 8th, 2014 at 12:04:13 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

MickeyCrimm says he'd stop and check them out on his way to and fro in a casino, and since he has been a career machines AP for many years, that's really all of the validation I need to know it's a decent enough play.



The smallest play I have I'm betting just one nickel. When I walk by the machine I have to stop and punch the game up to see what is banked. I might get a play 25% of the time. I have to stick a bill in the machine and spin it off, then cash out and get an attendant to cash the ticket. It's an average $7 win when I get a play. The whole process doesn't take more than a few minutes. Now, I'm in the casino looking for bigger plays. But I never pass this small play up. I'm there so why shouldn't I take the money even though it's a small earn. It's adds about $200 a month to my bottom line.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
Mission146
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January 8th, 2014 at 4:36:16 PM permalink
Quote: randomperson

His argument was clearly an analogy. You took it literally.



Quote: Mission146

Either that, or you're just making in inapt comparison.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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January 8th, 2014 at 4:41:47 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

The smallest play I have I'm betting just one nickel. When I walk by the machine I have to stop and punch the game up to see what is banked. I might get a play 25% of the time. I have to stick a bill in the machine and spin it off, then cash out and get an attendant to cash the ticket. It's an average $7 win when I get a play. The whole process doesn't take more than a few minutes. Now, I'm in the casino looking for bigger plays. But I never pass this small play up. I'm there so why shouldn't I take the money even though it's a small earn. It's adds about $200 a month to my bottom line.



Thanks, Mickey.

I tend to wonder if people who think plays like this are garbage wouldn't stop to pick up a $10 bill on the ground that had no apparent owner out of fear of wrenching their back. It's the same thing, except the machine has a somewhat comfortable chair, so wrenching your back is even less likely.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
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