What is the typical number of credits bet on video nickels, quarters, and dollars?
October 14th, 2013 at 2:29:03 PM
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I'm adding an Expected Loss calculator to my Easy Vegas site, and I need to know the typical number of credits bet on nickel, quarter, and dollar slots (as I'm not near a casino at the moment). I seem to remember from playing penny slots with my wife that for pennies it's 270 credits (30 lines x 9 credits per line). Of course, the calculator will let the user choose their own figure, but I'd like the default number to be realistic. I guess I also need to know the maximum number of credits as well. So, slot players, what can you tell me?
Last edited by: MichaelBluejay on Aug 18, 2019
I run Easy Vegas ( https://easy.vegas )
October 14th, 2013 at 6:19:23 PM
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Hard to say. But I'd say the typical number of credits bet is around $0.40-$0.75 for pennies, 9-45 for nickels,3-5 for quarters and 1-5 for dollars. That's a big range, I know.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
October 14th, 2013 at 6:40:48 PM
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Quote: MichaelBluejayI'm adding an Expected Loss calculator to my VegasClick.com site, and I need to know the typical number of credits bet on nickel, quarter, and dollar slots (as I'm not near a casino at the moment). I seem to remember from playing penny slots with my wife that for pennies it's 270 credits (30 lines x 9 credits per line). Of course, the calculator will let the user choose their own figure, but I'd like the default number to be realistic. I guess I also need to know the maximum number of credits as well. So, slot players, what can you tell me?
Pennies
For pennies, it's a really huge range. I've seen Max Bets anywhere from $1.00-$6.00. Machines such as Quick Hits Platinum often have a Max Bet of $1.50 in that denomination, but their flat-top counterparts (just called Quick Hits) often have a Max bet of $2.00. $3.00 is also a Max bet on some Quick Hits Platinum and Diamond machines.
I've seen $4.00 on some machines, which I'm guessing represents 20/Line with 20 Lines.
$3.00 is often the maximum on machines such as Blue Moon or Fire Island.
If I had to pick one and only one, I'd say $3.00.
Nickels
The most common one I have seen for Nickels is 9 Lines @ 5/line = $2.25. Very common. Most nickel Quick Hits machines are this way, as are machines such as Double-Diamond Run. I've seen others, up to $10.00, in fact, but I'd say $2.25 is the most common.
Quarters
Quarters seem to be most commonly single-line machines at Three Credits for $0.75, three line machines for $0.75, or five lines for $1.25. I have seen multi-line machines where you can bet extra credits per line, but not many, so I'd be inclined to go with $0.75.
Dollars
Most dollar machines I have seen are the same as quarters, so either $3.00 or $5.00.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
October 14th, 2013 at 7:12:21 PM
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Thanks, Mission, that's helpful!
I run Easy Vegas ( https://easy.vegas )
October 14th, 2013 at 7:58:52 PM
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You're welcome!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
October 14th, 2013 at 8:13:36 PM
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Now I'm wondering what the returns are like for various denominations, now that slots have shifted to multiline video. In the old days of electromechanical reels, you'd expect it to be around 91% / 94% / 96% for nickels / quarters / dollars. But these days even the penny machines try to get you play $2.70 a spin, about as much as $1 x 3 on an old electromechanical dollar reel. So is there really that much of a difference any more? The Wizard's slot machine page suggests there's barely any difference at those denominations, though of course video poker is mixed in, though that probably shouldn't skew the results very much. Hmm.
Last edited by: MichaelBluejay on Aug 18, 2019
I run Easy Vegas ( https://easy.vegas )
October 14th, 2013 at 8:30:13 PM
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A little high on pennies, Mission.
Recently it was .73 cents average bet in Colorado.
At Borgata, where nearly half of the casino's slot machines in January were in the penny denomination, the average bet per play is about $1. This was an article about AC slots.
Makes me think both are correct .
Recently it was .73 cents average bet in Colorado.
At Borgata, where nearly half of the casino's slot machines in January were in the penny denomination, the average bet per play is about $1. This was an article about AC slots.
Makes me think both are correct .
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
October 14th, 2013 at 8:35:13 PM
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Quote: MichaelBluejayNow I'm wondering what the returns are like for various denominations, now that slots have shifted to multiline video. In the old days of electromechanical reels, you'd expect it to be around 91% / 94% / 96% for nickels / quarters / dollars. But these days even the penny machines try to get you play $2.70 a spin, about as much as $1 x 3 on an old electromechanical dollar reel. So is there really that much of a difference any more? The Wizard's slot machine page suggests there's barely any difference at those denominations, though of course video poker is mixed in, though that probably shouldn't skew the results very much. Hmm.
Michael,
Not only are there different odds to be set in the denomination range, but there are a lot of multi-denominational games where the odds change based on your chosen denomination (generally get better the larger it is). Others don't have this feature, though they have multi-denominational offerings. I don't know how you can make any generalizations. Almost all the new 1cent games max bet at $3-4 now, and the 2cent games max bet at $3-6. There are a lot of nickels, too, that max bet at 15-20 lines at from 5 to 10 per line, max betting from 4.50 to 10.00, but now that they've proved pennies can pay, I would say 9 out of 10 new games are penny denom in that $3-4 range.
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Aug 18, 2019
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
October 14th, 2013 at 8:49:08 PM
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The place I was at had 90% "guaranteed" on all penny slots. The ones I saw were 30/60/90 credits on the quick hit platinums. The multi 7s went from 1 credit/1 line to 10 credits/20 lines (2.00 per play). Most penny slots were about 20-30 credits per play just to sit down. There may have been ones where you bet more, but didn't see them.
October 14th, 2013 at 10:39:35 PM
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Historically I have always figured 85%-88%-90%-92% for 1c-5c-25c/50c-$1 slots. Then Add 2% in each for Vegas.
Penny & Nickel 400 coins (20L*20C)
Quarter and Half 100 coins (20L*5C)
Dollar 60 coins (20L*3C)
High limit $5-$10 $25 slots usually 3 reel 5 line.
I would start there.
Penny & Nickel 400 coins (20L*20C)
Quarter and Half 100 coins (20L*5C)
Dollar 60 coins (20L*3C)
High limit $5-$10 $25 slots usually 3 reel 5 line.
I would start there.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
October 15th, 2013 at 2:20:42 AM
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Quote: BuzzardA little high on pennies, Mission.
Recently it was .73 cents average bet in Colorado.
At Borgata, where nearly half of the casino's slot machines in January were in the penny denomination, the average bet per play is about $1. This was an article about AC slots.
Makes me think both are correct .
Does he want average bet or average Max Bet?
Most people don't Max Bet, even though they usually should.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
October 15th, 2013 at 2:28:37 AM
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Quote: MichaelBluejayNow I'm wondering what the returns are like for various denominations, now that slots have shifted to multiline video. In the old days of electromechanical reels, you'd expect it to be around 91% / 94% / 96% for nickels / quarters / dollars. But these days even the penny machines try to get you play $2.70 a spin, about as much as $1 x 3 on an old electromechanical dollar reel. So is there really that much of a difference any more? The Wizard's Wizard's slot machine page suggests there's barely any difference at those denominations, though of course video poker is mixed in, though that probably shouldn't skew the results very much. Hmm.
If you click the link in this post by Boz:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/15409-september-atlantic-city-results-down-12-9/#post278049
Those are the Atlantic City revenues for the month of September, broken down by casino and game/slot type. You could probably just add all of them up and get an average for every denomination, in terms of 1.00 - (Hold Percentage) = x for each denomination including all casinos. I'd say that would be pretty good for all slots of $1.00, or less, maybe even $5.00. The other slots have so much volatility, (due to them not being played much) such as $100 slots, that it'd be tough to get anything useful out of that.
Although, I believe these slot numbers also include Video Poker, which may falsely inflate your $0.25 and $1.00 denom values a bit, maybe add an arbitrary one or two percent to the hold percentage?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
October 20th, 2013 at 7:19:26 PM
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Thanks everyone for the help. It occurred to me that I could design the calculator with a default denomination, and then I wouldn't need the default for every single denomination. Still, it was helpful to know common per-spin bets for the various denominations, so I could enter them as choices in the menu. So here's my Average Loss Calculator.
Last edited by: MichaelBluejay on Aug 18, 2019
I run Easy Vegas ( https://easy.vegas )
October 20th, 2013 at 7:51:39 PM
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Thank you. looks good.Quote: MichaelBluejaySo here's my Expected Loss Calculator.
I still prefer also to know the possible range of losses over N hours played.
flip a fair coin 100 times, we expect 50 Heads, but we also know that will not happen every time.
So what IS the plus and minus value?
That my problem.
flip a fair coin 100 times, we expect 50 Heads, but we also know that will not happen every time.
So what IS the plus and minus value?
That my problem.
Now this statement
"As you might suspect,
as you play more and more rounds,
your actual loss will approach the average loss."
The part in bold is fallacious.
I thought this said something different before.
Ah, found it here
"The longer you play, the closer your losses will approach the house edge."
https://easy.vegas/gambling/house-edge
for those who do not agree
To quote BruceZ
"Your total winnings do not converge to your EV as the sample becomes large.
That's a common misconception.
The difference between your actual winnings and your EV becomes infinitely large,
and it actually makes larger and larger fluctuations above and below your EV.
But if you divide that difference by your actual EV, that goes to zero.
If you divide your total winnings by the number of hands to get winnings per hand, that will converge to your EV per hand."
BruceZ link - good thread to read
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Aug 18, 2019
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
October 20th, 2013 at 9:31:03 PM
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You want to know the whole possible range? That's easy. 100% loss on one end and (for even-money bets) 100% gain on the other. Of course, over any appreciable number of rounds, that's exceptionally unlikely. What would be more useful is to see the range for, say, 1, 2, and 3 standard deviations from average. But that's a lot harder to calculate, for various reasons, and as such I'm not going to do it any time soon.
Actual losses *do* tend to converge on the EL as the sample size becomes larger. You can see this in action with my House Edge Calculator. Now, your actual losses might be closer to EL at 10 rounds and then farther away at 20 rounds, so you could fault me for not saying that "actual loss will tend to approach average loss", but really, that's splitting hairs.
Actual losses *do* tend to converge on the EL as the sample size becomes larger. You can see this in action with my House Edge Calculator. Now, your actual losses might be closer to EL at 10 rounds and then farther away at 20 rounds, so you could fault me for not saying that "actual loss will tend to approach average loss", but really, that's splitting hairs.
Last edited by: MichaelBluejay on Aug 18, 2019
I run Easy Vegas ( https://easy.vegas )
October 21st, 2013 at 1:30:22 AM
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Yes, much more useful knowing the 'mean' and the 'standard deviation'Quote: MichaelBluejayWhat would be more useful is to see the range for,
say, 1, 2, and 3 standard deviations from average.
Problem is, the vast majority will only understand the average
and not take the same effort to understand variance in gambling.
No it is not.Quote: MichaelBluejayBut that's a lot
harder
to
calculate,
for various reasons,
and as such I'm not going to do it
any time soon.
Why scare the masses?
The standard deviation for 1 bet or many bets
is as difficult to calculate as
the expected value of one or many bets once one knows the house edge of the bet.
The Wizard has shown how this is done.
House edge and expected value only
is what really matters to most casino gaming writers for a
simple reason to compare different casino games and their bets.
I challenge you to step away from that pack (most casino gaming writers)
that limits the knowledge that can be
gained by the average gaming reader.
You up to it?
IMO, I think not.
Why?
Ellen is on!
what follows is for those who want more understanding
Good Luck
here is a link showing how to calculate the house edge and standard deviation for simple
casino wagers and how to use that information.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/1213-variance-in-craps/
Example:
MB's new calculator shows the expected value (average loss) to be -$30 for
Craps (yes, I pick on this one) - 43 rounds per hour - $5 bet - Pass Line - 10 hours
430 flat bet wagers (handle of $2,150) * -7/495 = -$30.40 expected value
looks good
The SD of 1 unit for the Pass Line is about 0.999900005
(please check my work using the formula I linked to)
Now we take that value * $Bet ($5) and we have the value for a $5 wager (almost $5)
we take the square root of 430 and multiply that by the $5 SD value
I get (using Excel) 103.6718391
What does this mean?
for 430 bets playing just $5 pass line bets
the center of the distribution being -$30.40 (this is a normal distribution)
the 2SD range would be -30 +/- 208 (94.7% probability)
-237.7477186 to 176.9396378
Now many think they are more likely to be around that magical EV (expected value) of -$30
Well,
the interval of -$30 +/- $30 (0 to -$60)
is a probability (using the central limit theorem) of about 22.8%
(26.4% calculated)
around 1 in 4
One is more likely to be ahead after 430 flat bet wagers than in that expected interval.
I show that probability being 38.5% (36.63096% calculated)
(about 1.5 times more likely than the 0 to -$60 interval)
here is another interval
-$110 or more
22.10% (23.59590% calculated)
about the SAME as the -$30 +/- $30 interval.
Hey, I just lost $120 playing that stupid pass line when I should have just lost
$30 by this cool calculator.
Blame it on the Chinese dice.
Now to me, (and who really cares who I am)
it looks like MB is really trying to pass along some really misleading information.
Only an average of a $30 loss for 10 hours of play.
But in reality one SHOULD expect to be any where between
-237.7477186 to 176.9396378 or even worse or better.
Hmmm...
So if one lost $100 the first 10 hours, does that mean the more we play the closer
our actual losses will get to the expected value of many wagers?
Just like flipping a coin and seeing, no - knowing - the actual number of heads
WILL get closer and closer to their expected value the more coin flips we make.
the last two sentences are flat out wrong... totally wrong period
but public perception is hard to change, even when the truth
is thought to be false information.
casino wagers and how to use that information.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/1213-variance-in-craps/
Example:
MB's new calculator shows the expected value (average loss) to be -$30 for
Craps (yes, I pick on this one) - 43 rounds per hour - $5 bet - Pass Line - 10 hours
430 flat bet wagers (handle of $2,150) * -7/495 = -$30.40 expected value
looks good
The SD of 1 unit for the Pass Line is about 0.999900005
(please check my work using the formula I linked to)
Now we take that value * $Bet ($5) and we have the value for a $5 wager (almost $5)
we take the square root of 430 and multiply that by the $5 SD value
I get (using Excel) 103.6718391
What does this mean?
for 430 bets playing just $5 pass line bets
the center of the distribution being -$30.40 (this is a normal distribution)
the 2SD range would be -30 +/- 208 (94.7% probability)
-237.7477186 to 176.9396378
Now many think they are more likely to be around that magical EV (expected value) of -$30
Well,
the interval of -$30 +/- $30 (0 to -$60)
is a probability (using the central limit theorem) of about 22.8%
(26.4% calculated)
around 1 in 4
One is more likely to be ahead after 430 flat bet wagers than in that expected interval.
I show that probability being 38.5% (36.63096% calculated)
(about 1.5 times more likely than the 0 to -$60 interval)
here is another interval
-$110 or more
22.10% (23.59590% calculated)
about the SAME as the -$30 +/- $30 interval.
Hey, I just lost $120 playing that stupid pass line when I should have just lost
$30 by this cool calculator.
Blame it on the Chinese dice.
Now to me, (and who really cares who I am)
it looks like MB is really trying to pass along some really misleading information.
Only an average of a $30 loss for 10 hours of play.
But in reality one SHOULD expect to be any where between
-237.7477186 to 176.9396378 or even worse or better.
Hmmm...
So if one lost $100 the first 10 hours, does that mean the more we play the closer
our actual losses will get to the expected value of many wagers?
Just like flipping a coin and seeing, no - knowing - the actual number of heads
WILL get closer and closer to their expected value the more coin flips we make.
the last two sentences are flat out wrong... totally wrong period
but public perception is hard to change, even when the truth
is thought to be false information.
continue
Here you go MB
easy money (added on 10/23/2013)
The Wizard has a page of house edge and standard deviation
https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/
not really that good of one to learn how to use them values, but better
than nothing!
But hey!
Play 10 hours with $5 bets at Craps and only lose about $30
is exactly what every reader of your site will come away with.
And you MB make Blackjack look to be the best game to play
(only losing on average $17
and we will not talk about that default game either)
for any 10 hour period. (game of skill vs. a game of chance)
But in reality, over the SAME # of hours played,
a Blackjack player loses MORE than a basic Craps player
with the SAME amount of BAD Luck (-1SD)
- do you see why? -
and about the SAME or slightly MORE than the Baccarat player betting only Banker.
- do you see why? -
well,
Losing say $230 in a 10 hour playing period
would not be expected by ANY player reading your calculator
but the MATH says to expect it.
Why?
Just as you say
one does not play forever
so we now need standard deviation to show all
a better picture of any session play end result.
too bad you do not want to stand out
from the rest of all the gaming writers
(not including BruceZ and Alan Krigman, RIP Alan)
Yes, from reading many of your articles,
I thought you were different.
but not. no one is.
except Elvis Presley
https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/
not really that good of one to learn how to use them values, but better
than nothing!
But hey!
Play 10 hours with $5 bets at Craps and only lose about $30
is exactly what every reader of your site will come away with.
And you MB make Blackjack look to be the best game to play
(only losing on average $17
and we will not talk about that default game either)
for any 10 hour period. (game of skill vs. a game of chance)
But in reality, over the SAME # of hours played,
a Blackjack player loses MORE than a basic Craps player
with the SAME amount of BAD Luck (-1SD)
- do you see why? -
and about the SAME or slightly MORE than the Baccarat player betting only Banker.
- do you see why? -
well,
Losing say $230 in a 10 hour playing period
would not be expected by ANY player reading your calculator
but the MATH says to expect it.
Why?
Just as you say
one does not play forever
so we now need standard deviation to show all
a better picture of any session play end result.
too bad you do not want to stand out
from the rest of all the gaming writers
(not including BruceZ and Alan Krigman, RIP Alan)
Yes, from reading many of your articles,
I thought you were different.
but not. no one is.
except Elvis Presley
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
October 21st, 2013 at 8:29:54 AM
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Fine, if it's so simple, then you don't need me. You do it.
Wow, thanks for failing to notice that I cover lots of stuff not covered anywhere else, and that I give traditional topics a completely different treatment.
Anyway, yes, calculating SD when all the variables are known is trivial, but you clearly haven't given any thought into how to arrive at good variance figures that are compatible with the calculator table format, and given your insulting taunts, I'm not about to explain it to you.
P.S. I don't own a television.
Quote:I challenge you to step away from that pack (most casino gaming writers)
that limits the knowledge that can be
gained by the average gaming reader.
Wow, thanks for failing to notice that I cover lots of stuff not covered anywhere else, and that I give traditional topics a completely different treatment.
Anyway, yes, calculating SD when all the variables are known is trivial, but you clearly haven't given any thought into how to arrive at good variance figures that are compatible with the calculator table format, and given your insulting taunts, I'm not about to explain it to you.
P.S. I don't own a television.
I run Easy Vegas ( https://easy.vegas )
October 21st, 2013 at 8:32:50 AM
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7craps blocked.
I run Easy Vegas ( https://easy.vegas )
October 21st, 2013 at 9:15:32 AM
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Nowadays with all the penny machines being non progressive or not having a payable bump for max bet. they "usually should" may not be accurate anymore.Quote: Mission146Does he want average bet or average Max Bet?
Most people don't Max Bet, even though they usually should.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
October 21st, 2013 at 1:42:33 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfNowadays with all the penny machines being non progressive or not having a payable bump for max bet. they "usually should" may not be accurate anymore.
That's a good point, another thing that I have noticed is that many of the newer machines seem to allow one to qualify for the Progressive(s) even without Max Betting. It's a rarity to see anything in the help file indicating that there will be an increase in Scatter symbols by Max betting (though I have seen such help files) and in many of the help files it appears that max betting offers no advantages whatsoever.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
October 21st, 2013 at 2:01:09 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfNowadays with all the penny machines being non progressive or not having a payable bump for max bet. they "usually should" may not be accurate anymore.
Quote: Mission146That's a good point, another thing that I have noticed is that many of the newer machines seem to allow one to qualify for the Progressive(s) even without Max Betting. It's a rarity to see anything in the help file indicating that there will be an increase in Scatter symbols by Max betting (though I have seen such help files) and in many of the help files it appears that max betting offers no advantages whatsoever.
Yeah, many penny slots with progressives are also now designed to award the progressive with smaller bets as well, with the appropriate probability to hit the progressive weighted to keep the overall percentage return of the game to be the same among all bet levels. So betting more is just upping your hourly loss, unless the game is >100% of course after all factors of value are considered.
And I also thought michael was referring to an "average bet" for pennies as well. Which is much closer to what Buzzard wrote. I've read it's near 75c/spin in Missouri on average as well. But in Vegas, I wouldn't be surprised it was closer to $1/spin. This article discussing penny slots in AC suggests the average bet at Borgata is close to $1/spin.
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/penny-slots-are-popular-flexible-and-profitable-so-they-re/article_a161f006-82a4-11e2-9477-001a4bcf887a.html
October 22nd, 2013 at 6:55:10 PM
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And the average "pull" rate is 7 per minute.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 24th, 2013 at 7:14:18 PM
permalink
Sounds about right in order to not overpromise. The reported numbers are skewed greatly thanks to VP. Im not all too confident about the Vegas adjustment though.Quote: 98ClubsHistorically I have always figured 85%-88%-90%-92% for 1c-5c-25c/50c-$1 slots. Then Add 2% in each for Vegas.
Penny & Nickel 400 coins (20L*20C)
Quarter and Half 100 coins (20L*5C)
Dollar 60 coins (20L*3C)
High limit $5-$10 $25 slots usually 3 reel 5 line.
I would start there.
I am a robot.
