Why would a casino eliminate a slot brand?

I just got back from a Thanksgiving trip to the Tunica, MS casinos. I don't know what made me think the casinos would be deserted for the holiday -- it was a frickin' madhouse -- but that's another story for another day.

Anyway, I stayed at the Fitz, where I usually stay, but I noticed that since the last time I was there in September that they have virtually eliminated all the WMS slots. All the new slots they were touting were mostly Bally games and a bunch from a company called Konami. I could count on one hand the WMS games they still had, while 3 months ago it seemed like they were adding the new ones on a regular basis. All of the other casinos seem to be adding the newer WMS games as quickly as they're released, especially their very popular G+ series, and here the Fitz is dumping them.

So why would a casino do something like this, get rid of 99% of the games from one company in favor of another? Do they have a lease agreement that runs out and they don't renew it? Did Bally or Konami give them some kind of gigantic rebate to install so many of their machines?

I understand that there's just so much floor space available, but I would think that a casino should include the widest variety of brands whenever possible, to accommodate all of their patrons' tastes. The Fitz has now lost at least one valuable customer -- me -- because I don't think I'll be staying there any more since I don't like what they're offering any more.

Our local N. WI casino has also been removing many machines and replacing them with these Konami's.

This has been an on-going replacement all year long and I have noticed that both mine and my wifes losses per casino trip have almost doubled ever since they started the machine replacement. (I been keeping won/loss records of each trip for the past 5 years)

I also just noticed a lot of them now at a Mn. casino we visit several times year.

I've played some of these Konami's and they seem to be very poor payers. Just recently I had close to 300 free spins on China Shore machine and was lucky to cash out with $92. A friend, playing another Konami machine, had over 500 free spins and got just over $200.

The first time I ever played one I got into a bonus and got 90 free spins and I did not win a single cent until over 30 free spins had been spun. I believe I netted only $32 on that bonus.

My guess- casinos are installing Komani's as they maybe have installed paybacks that are closer to the state minimums than what WMS or IGT will furnish.

I was under the impression that a slot's payback is determined by local Gaming Commission rules, not the manufacturer, that any slot machine's return can be set to anything that complies with the jurisdiction's requirements (or, in the case of Indian casinos, their tribe's requirements).

I like to watch the videos on youtube where people upload videos of their bonus rounds and I've noticed the Konami machines are really tight compared to some of the others, plus, I don't think I could stand to sit there and just watch, waiting for 400 free spins to finish. The WMS G+ line is known for its volatility, but at least you get a few small wins here and there; it seems like there are a LOT of dead spins on the Konamis.

I'm going back to Tunica for Christmas Eve, staying at Bally's casino this time because they have a lot more of the new WMS games that I like. Their buffet stinks compared to other casinos and I've heard their hotel rooms are comparable to a Motel 6, but hey, as long as I get a bed and a bathroom and a TV in my room and I get a piece of fried chicken, some mashed potatoes, and a slice of apple pie, I'm good. I'm going there to play, not sit in my room and eat; I can do that at home. :)

Quote: tsmith

Anyway, I stayed at the Fitz, where I usually stay, but I noticed that since the last time I was there in September that they have virtually eliminated all the WMS slots. All the new slots they were touting were mostly Bally games and a bunch from a company called Konami.

WMS sells most of their slots as a revenue sharing arrangement. The casino operator does not purchase the machine, they give up floor space and the casino and the slot owner split revenue. Slot manufacturers have quickly realized that they can make a lot more machines as part of the gaming operation, than strictly as a supplier of hardware.

The average sales price per new unit by WMS is $16,033 last quarter which is considerably more expensive than the "generic" no brand slot machine. But the WMS machines are very popular, so the casino operator is usually glad to share profit.

At one point the "Wheel of Fortune" slot machine (not a real wheel) was the most popular slot machine. It was only sold as a revenue sharing slot by IGT. Ceasars Inc at one point had them all taken out and replaced with generic spinning wheel slots. Many people were very upset.


WMS does make a line of generic mechanical machines. Maybe the Fitz was using these machines, they just weren't spending the money for the brand names or the revenue share machines.

So, pacomartin, maybe the Konami and Bally machines are cheaper than the WMS machines, which would prompt the changeover? Maybe Fitz could get 2 or 3 of the other machines for the same price as one WMS machine? Or maybe the Konami company doesn't demand as high a split on the revenue?

A financially sound decision up front perhaps, but one that might get them a bunch of unhappy customers, which can lead to decreased revenues in the long run.

I'll keep an eye on the machines at the Fitz and see how long it takes, if at all, for them to make another big changeover on the gaming floor. Until then, I'll use my free play there for as long as they give it to me but doubt that I'll add anything to it out of my own pocket.

Quote: tsmith

I was under the impression that a slot's payback is determined by local Gaming Commission rules, not the manufacturer, that any slot machine's return can be set to anything that complies with the jurisdiction's requirements (or, in the case of Indian casinos, their tribe's requirements).

No. Mississippi only dictates minimum and maximum theoretical payouts. The minimum payout is 80%, and the maximum payout is 100% (stupid rule, imo). Each slot manufacturer usually includes a certain number of settings for each unit that a casino's slot director can choose to implement. The state doesn't care what individual slot paybacks are just as long as they fall between 80 and 100%. It's possible that Konami has lower settings available than WMS. I wouldn't be surprised if many WMS machines have settings that are only 85% or higher, and Fitz would have to switch brands if they further wanted to lower their return. Typically speaking in Mississippi, it's unlikely that many machines are set as low as 80%. A more typical penny slot return is 87-88%.

More likely though, Fitz is annoyed with how much WMS is charging for their machines.

If you play quarter jacks or better there, you know what your payback is at least, and a reminder on how dirty money is...lol

I'm a penny slots player. Those things are like crack cocaine to me, I can't stay away from them. :)

I never play video poker. There's just something about it that I don't like. I think it's that the cards are just stuck out there next to each other like boxer shorts hung on a clothesline. Nobody holds cards like that, not even a 6-year-old playing Old Maid for the first time, it's just not natural. Nobody needs to see the entire card to know what it is, all you need is a corner.

You'd think by now, with all the advances in video graphic design and touch screen technology that somebody would be able to come up with a VP machine where the cards are fanned, as tho you're holding them in your hand, with an option for squeezing the last card. :)

Can't comment on an entire brand, which I suspect is based on the cost of licensing the machines. However, I have seen casinos remove an entire specific line of slot machines as a result of too many high payoffs. I found this to be both odd and frustrating as must have the casinos. A particular line was hitting jackpots virtually every day. I even came out ahead on most of the machines I had played. The machines didn't last a week before they were pulled.

Quote: tringlomane

More likely though, Fitz is annoyed with how much WMS is charging for their machines.

It is almost certainly the cost of the revenue share agreements.

Quote: asswhooper

Can't comment on an entire brand, which I suspect is based on the cost of licensing the machines. However, I have seen casinos remove an entire specific line of slot machines as a result of too many high payoffs. I found this to be both odd and frustrating as must have the casinos. A particular line was hitting jackpots virtually every day. I even came out ahead on most of the machines I had played. The machines didn't last a week before they were pulled.

Oh? What machines were these? =P

VP is usually the best game on the house floor if played properly. Given that the game deals out a fair deck of cards, it's easy to punch the pay table into the Wizard's calculator and to devise strategies and to practice at home. You can choose a VP game that has little variance (JoB) or a lot of variance (TDB). You can choose weird variations like Pick-em, multi-strike, Ultimate X, and a number of others. And I know the odds. Some casinos have the odds at greater than 100% with perfect play. And there are usually progressive advantages too (like last year when 4 Deuces paid 2,200 credits instead of 1,000).

When I sit at a slot machine, I don't know whether it pays 85% or 98%. I don't like that.

Quote: boymimbo

When I sit at a slot machine, I don't know whether it pays 85% or 98%. I don't like that.

Understandable, but looking at casino revenue reports, most people have no problem with that, and youre better off assuming 85% if youre playing pennies. :(

Konamis are usually programmed with higher minimum returns available, at least upon the release and WMS machines normally offer some of the lowest available returns hot out the gate. So, there goes the one poster's assumptions. I honestly believe Bally machines are some of the worst paying pathetic concepts out there and if I ever see a casino put a lot of Bally machines on the slot floor, it can only mean one thing. Bally Command Center(Bally SBG). They have to be part of the deal for installing it, because there can be no other reason to install machines players do not want with such a high rate of bunk. They have to be set to 80% state minimum at the local, they are just that bad.

Quote: tringlomane

Understandable, but looking at casino revenue reports, most people have no problem with that, and youre better off assuming 85% if youre playing pennies. :(

Personally, I think some slot manufacturer should release a machine where the player gets to select the payback percent. I even think there should be a 100% payback schedule (but it will be boring as possible, and a light will go on signalling that the player does not expect comps).

I think that roulette is OK as long as you are playing a single number bets. I feel like the house edge is a reasonable cost of paybacks as high as they are. But the line bets are sucker bets.

People should be free to set the payback in exchange for higher payouts. Furthermore, I don't think players will rebel against the concept. A lot of people play lottery tickets knowing full welll that the state keeps 40% to 50% of the money.

Quote: pacomartin

Personally, I think some slot manufacturer should release a machine where the player gets to select the payback percent. I even think there should be a 100% payback schedule (but it will be boring as possible, and a light will go on signalling that the player does not expect comps).

I disagree with this since slots take no skill while running these devices and paying licensing fees will cause the casino to take an obvious net loss if it truly pays 100% back. But I wouldn't mind video slots that pay well into the nineties though. :) I have also heard of slot machines that will let you adjust the variance of slot bonus rounds, and I think this is a good idea.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I honestly believe Bally machines are some of the worst paying pathetic concepts out there and if I ever see a casino put a lot of Bally machines on the slot floor, it can only mean one thing. Bally Command Center(Bally SBG). They have to be part of the deal for installing it, because there can be no other reason to install machines players do not want with such a high rate of bunk. They have to be set to 80% state minimum at the local, they are just that bad.

I respectfully disagree with this part, at least, in some cases.

If you will peruse this link for Quick Hits Platinum:

http://www.arcade-history.com/?n=black-and-white-sevens-quick-hit-platinum&page=detail&id=32113

You will see that the MINIMUM programmable Base Return is 88.05%. I say Base Return, because the minimum return programmable does not factor in increases to the Progressives on those specific units.

QHs is a possible exception. I'm talking about the new stuff from this year or last year.