Why do people play slots?
September 10th, 2012 at 11:19:48 PM
permalink
Penny slots are cheaper than any table game if you play them a cent at a time, and if I hit one of the larger values, what the hell, I'll play a real game. If not, it's a good way to sober up, get off tilt, maybe wait for the list to shorten, or some open seats to fill. On more expensive slots, every spin has a chance of a huge payout - the expected value is proportionately steeper, but that's the price you pay. From a certain perspective, a better question might be why play even money games, which tend to be those with the best edge? In terms of expected value, you're losing more slowly, but just as surely, and the best you'll do is a few more bets more than you started out with, unless you press your wins, creating a worse longshot for yourself than many of those on the craps and sic bo tables. I suppose VP offers the best of both worlds if you can find a good paytable... even if you can't, the <4% edge of 7/5 JoB (or the 3.5% edge of Let-It-Ride) is better than a lot of slot machines, and you know what you're getting. Or if you can spare $15 or $30 a pop, Let-It-Ride, which has a house edge (from a certain point of view) of 1.2%, and TCP, with one of 2% (from the same point of view), offer similar middle grounds.
Bottom line: if you're really so concerned about EV, you shouldn't be playing the table games any more than the slots.
Bottom line: if you're really so concerned about EV, you shouldn't be playing the table games any more than the slots.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
September 11th, 2012 at 6:10:15 AM
permalink
Slots have gone thru a change in the past few years, from offering jackpots to offering secondary bonus games. If you look at a video slot pay table you probably won't see anything with a "jackpot" designation. There will be a highest-paying symbol that pays more per line than the other symbols, but no special payout for it the way you would have seen with a Double Diamond or Wild Cherry 3-reel machine where lining up 3 of them with max coin would pay you 10 times more than without max coin.
These days you can sometimes win more in a bonus round than on a regular spin, and that's what players wait for. What makes this exciting is that bonus rounds come up a lot more often than lining up 3 Double Diamonds ever did, giving you more chances at having that jackpot feeling.
These days you can sometimes win more in a bonus round than on a regular spin, and that's what players wait for. What makes this exciting is that bonus rounds come up a lot more often than lining up 3 Double Diamonds ever did, giving you more chances at having that jackpot feeling.
September 11th, 2012 at 7:10:48 AM
permalink
Well, I know one eighty year old woman who plays slot machines because she doesn't know how to play table games and the slot machines are "cheaper". I don't know if she quite gets the "loss per hour" or "loss per minute" concept, but she is put off by the requirement of a large, minimum bet at Blackjack or Baccarat. Her friends/enemies all play slot machines too. So its slots, the free buffet, the free room and the free ride... but its slots or nothing.
September 11th, 2012 at 8:33:46 AM
permalink
Quote: MalcomDI played like 20$ on various machines and decided I would haverather bought 20 1$ scratch off tickets. So please enlighten me why you play.
When you say you played $20 (and pardon me for being pedantic, but the dollar sign goes before the number), what level of machine did you play - Dollars? Quarters? Nickels? I am under the impression that, with the exception of Megabucks machines, the higher the coin in, the higher (in percent) the EV. For a machine to take in $1 for every 100 credits, the EV would need to be 99% for a dollar machine, 96% for a quarter machine, and 80% for a nickel machine.
I think that pretty much every state with scratch-off lottery tickets sets the EV on those at 50%. It needs to be low because a large chunk of the money is supposed to go to public education or some other specific government area. (I say "supposed to" because California is notorious for moving non-lottery public school spending to its "general fund" under the impression that the lottery money will more than make up the difference, so, for all intents and purposes, some, if not all, of the lottery money goes into the state's general fund.)
As for why I play, I play for two different reasons; I play dollar machines to try and make money (and I am one of these "I am ahead over my lifetime in slot play" people, mainly because I don't play that much and had a $125 win once), and nickel machines for enjoyment value, although I get almost as much from the free slots on Facebook (e.g. the Pink Panther slot at the Caesar's Palace app - which supposedly gives you Total Rewards points, although I don't see how you get them if you play for free; perhaps you can get points if you buy chips).
September 11th, 2012 at 8:36:14 AM
permalink
Quote: MoscaI do believe kulin has a point, but I still also believe that slot players generally know what to expect. Having the odds available hasn't seemed to affected roulette, or the Big 6, or field bets.
Not being into slots or truly understanding the drive to play them I have no idea what the effect of displaying the true odds would be on slots, but on table games it would be an endless hassle of explaining, "No, I'm paying you 2 1/2 to 1 because that's what we pay when you hit it, please stop waving that sign in my face that says the odds are 4 to 1."
September 11th, 2012 at 9:20:50 AM
permalink
This question is for all those slot players who say they enjoy the 'free' drinks.
Do you tip the drink server?
Do you tip the drink server?
September 11th, 2012 at 9:27:26 AM
permalink
Quote: FatGeezusThis question is for all those slot players who say they enjoy the 'free' drinks.
Do you tip the drink server?
Oh, yeah! At least a dollar, even if it's just for one of the bottles of water they already have on the tray. And one server this weekend was so nice I spoke with her boss about the excellent service and friendly attitude. I appreciate things like that.
My sister and I once had trouble getting a server over at the slots since we were near a party pit and they all wanted to concentrate on the guys at the tables and not two women at the penny machines. Our server brought my sister a drink, she hit for $1000, and gave the waitress $20. Some women actually tip. I stick to soft drinks while playing, though.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
September 11th, 2012 at 9:32:55 AM
permalink
I'll usually only drink one, Max Two, when I am at the casino. Generally, if they decide to comp it, I simply tip what it would have otherwise cost. If they don't comp it, I tip one or two dollars on a QoP basis.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 11th, 2012 at 12:55:31 PM
permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuyWhen you say you played $20 (and pardon me for being pedantic, but the dollar sign goes before the number), what level of machine did you play - Dollars? Quarters? Nickels? I am under the impression that, with the exception of Megabucks machines, the higher the coin in, the higher (in percent) the EV. For a machine to take in $1 for every 100 credits, the EV would need to be 99% for a dollar machine, 96% for a quarter machine, and 80% for a nickel machine.
I think that pretty much every state with scratch-off lottery tickets sets the EV on those at 50%. It needs to be low because a large chunk of the money is supposed to go to public education or some other specific government area. (I say "supposed to" because California is notorious for moving non-lottery public school spending to its "general fund" under the impression that the lottery money will more than make up the difference, so, for all intents and purposes, some, if not all, of the lottery money goes into the state's general fund.)
As for why I play, I play for two different reasons; I play dollar machines to try and make money (and I am one of these "I am ahead over my lifetime in slot play" people, mainly because I don't play that much and had a $125 win once), and nickel machines for enjoyment value, although I get almost as much from the free slots on Facebook (e.g. the Pink Panther slot at the Caesar's Palace app - which supposedly gives you Total Rewards points, although I don't see how you get them if you play for free; perhaps you can get points if you buy chips).
I was playing on variously priced slots. A couple Penny ones, which in my opinion were the absolute stupidest game in the world. I won some type of jackpot and the thing lit up, made dumb noises, and lights flashed but since it was a penny slot I won like 5 dollars. I played nickle ones same thing and played a couple quarters, and a dollar slot.
September 11th, 2012 at 2:07:40 PM
permalink
FatGeezus, why would you think that slot players wouldn't tip for drinks? Just because we're not playing with chips doesn't mean we're cheap or don't understand how waitresses make their money. I don't drink alcohol but I always give the waitress a dollar for a glass of Coke.
At the casino I stay at most often there's a cocktail waiter, the only time I've ever seen a man doing that job, who works the second floor where there are only slot machines. On my last trip I ordered a Coke from him and then about 3 hours later I called him over to order another one and before I could say anything he said, "Coke no ice, right?" I was dumbfounded and said, "You remembered that from hours ago with all these people?" and he looked at me and said, "Of course." I gave him $2 when he brought back my soda.
At the casino I stay at most often there's a cocktail waiter, the only time I've ever seen a man doing that job, who works the second floor where there are only slot machines. On my last trip I ordered a Coke from him and then about 3 hours later I called him over to order another one and before I could say anything he said, "Coke no ice, right?" I was dumbfounded and said, "You remembered that from hours ago with all these people?" and he looked at me and said, "Of course." I gave him $2 when he brought back my soda.
September 11th, 2012 at 2:43:16 PM
permalink
I don't think that FatGeezus was implying that slot players don't tip; I think he was implying that the drinks are not really free when you tip. I still consider a drink to be free if I tip $1.
I heart Crystal Math.
September 11th, 2012 at 2:45:10 PM
permalink
" I don't drink alcohol but I always give the waitress a dollar for a glass of Coke. "
I tip $1 for a diet coke with marachino cherries. A complete meal.
I tip $1 for a diet coke with marachino cherries. A complete meal.
September 11th, 2012 at 3:51:33 PM
permalink
Quote: MalcomDSo basically what I'm hearing is that the free drink and ease of play. Most slot players don't except to win big. I only go to okay blackjack that is it. Sometimes just to relax after winning the big six wheel. One of these days I'm going to play baccarat but that's it.thanks for enlightening me. I still think slots are exploitative.
How are slots more exploitative than the big six wheel? The edge on the big six wheel ranges from 11% to 24%, far worse than the typical slot game.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 11th, 2012 at 6:10:37 PM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremistHow are slots more exploitative than the big six wheel? The edge on the big six wheel ranges from 11% to 24%, far worse than the typical slot game.
I met a young couple that I enjoyed talking too. The guy was a young military man and his wife was from Ghana. I showed him how to make line bets in craps, and tried to explain to him that the house edge was aout the smallest of any game of chance in the casino. His wife had this look of terror on her face. His bankroll went up and down, and at one point when he hit even, she grabbed the money. We went to the big six wheel, and she had this look of absolute rapture on her face as the wheel spun. She said she could easily do this for hours.
I didn't push it, as she seemed so happy. I think you are correct, that many people could care less about house edge.
September 11th, 2012 at 6:53:09 PM
permalink
When Mrs Gump told Forrest you have to do the best with what God gave you
I think Forrest summed it up pretty well..stupid is as stupid does....
I think Forrest summed it up pretty well..stupid is as stupid does....
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 11th, 2012 at 7:07:56 PM
permalink
Quote: buzzpaffI tip $1 for a diet coke with marachino cherries. A complete meal.
A cup of olives seems to be almost a common order for people who are hungry but don't want to stop playing...
The number of people with a lifetime slot win just shows that ultimately, it's not really edge that matters, but edge in relation to standard deviation. There's a reason so many "good bets" are even money.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
September 12th, 2012 at 10:06:38 AM
permalink
Quote: tsmithFatGeezus, why would you think that slot players wouldn't tip for drinks?
tsmith, what makes you THINK ......... that I THINK slot players wouldn't tip?
September 12th, 2012 at 11:21:15 AM
permalink
I tip a dollar for each drink brought to me or my wife, whether I'm playing a double diamond, VP or Bonus Texas Holdem. It's the right thing to do. You want the free drink, the house gives it to you and the girl that serves it is trying to make a living, so she deserves a tip every time. Anytime I can have a mixed cocktail for a buck I'm saving $4 or $5 or more, so I do consider the drinks free, and a comp and a reduction of the house edge. I say more than $5 because in Tampa, the Hard Rock charges $7.50 for each and every drink, no matter what you are playing. What a rip off. Needless to say I don't drink when I'm there, which is very rare. At two drinks an hour, I'm saving $15 in Vegas or AC (I'd tip if I were paying too) an hour. You comp and house edge guru's can tell me how that works out. Probably equal to a quarter player at blackjack, even though I'm playing nickel or quarter slots or $5 tables. Other than the free rooms it's the comp I like best.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
September 12th, 2012 at 4:18:07 PM
permalink
Quote: WongBoWhen Mrs Gump told Forrest you have to do the best with what God gave you
I think Forrest summed it up pretty well..stupid is as stupid does....
Time to see the movie again?
When Forrest says "Stupid is as stupid does" he is quoting what his mother said, not coming to his own conclusion.
And, when the exchange you seem to be referring to happened, he didn't say it at all. The scene occurs near the end of the movie when Mrs. Gump is dying of cancer...
Mrs. Gump: Well, I happen to believe you make your own destiny. You have to do the best with what God gave you.
Forrest Gump: What's my destiny, Mama?
Mrs. Gump: You're gonna have to figure that out for yourself. Life is a box of chocolates, Forrest. You never know what you're gonna to get.
September 12th, 2012 at 5:39:53 PM
permalink
I guess I should have just quoted Forrest...sums up my opinion well enough.
Thanks for the line edit...
:)
Why do people play slots?
Because they have heard of people winning a jackpot,
And they don't realize they are, by far, more likely to be funding the next one than winning it...
Thanks for the line edit...
:)
Why do people play slots?
Because they have heard of people winning a jackpot,
And they don't realize they are, by far, more likely to be funding the next one than winning it...
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:06:16 PM
permalink
Quote: WongBoI guess I should have just quoted Forrest...sums up my opinion well enough.
Thanks for the line edit...
:)
Why do people play slots?
Because they have heard of people winning a jackpot,
And they don't realize they are, by far, more likely to be funding the next one than winning it...
Those who don't play slots just don't understand.
People play slots because they like them. Slot players know that they are not standing in front of an ATM. Anyone who isn't there for the first time knows what to expect.
Why do you have such a hard time understanding that people are different, and that some will freely choose a lesser monetary return in exchange for a more pleasurable experience? The TRUE waste of a slot player's money would be to make her play a low risk game that she didn't enjoy. The advantage means nothing if it isn't something you like.
A falling knife has no handle.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:26:27 PM
permalink
Why play?
Because every time I push the "play" button, I know that "this could be the big one."
And you know what?
Sometimes it is.
Greed Gone Wild ...
Because every time I push the "play" button, I know that "this could be the big one."
And you know what?
Sometimes it is.
Greed Gone Wild ...
"What, me worry?"
September 12th, 2012 at 9:12:13 PM
permalink
Quote: MrVWhy play? Because every time I push the "play" button, I know that "this could be the big one."
Precisely... and merely rolling the bones at 0.6 house edge may be mathematically appealing but not emotionally appealing because your "win", if it takes place, is rather paltry.
Its the same reason people choose not to buy a lottery ticket because the prize that week is only ten million dollars... and they won't be getting the full bang for their buck.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:22:50 PM
permalink
i almost exclusively play craps, occasionally BJ, and sometimes hold'em if it's super fishy. i understand math and, yet, i have been known to play slots with a minor part of my bankroll.
why?
usually my friends and are gambling together, so we each put in $20 per machine, same denomination (usually 2 coin max, quarters), same kind of machine, in same bank. then we slooooooooooowly bet in order, once the $20 has run through each machine, the person with the most credits left, gets all of the credits. the result is usually 45 minutes of fun, 1-2 free drinks per person with $1 tip each, and someone leaves up $60-$80, possibly more, but we do agree to split jackpots over $500 evenly. it's something that we all together because not everyone plays craps.
it is just entertainment, relatively affordable entertainment depending on where you live and the cost of substitutes.
the last time we were in vegas, six of us racked up a $1200 bar tab (with tax and tip) at tao beach in roughly 4 hours. obviously, there is a premium to be paid for eye-candy and ridiculously hot waitresses, but that hourly cost is about $50/hour.
slots cost about half of that.
why?
usually my friends and are gambling together, so we each put in $20 per machine, same denomination (usually 2 coin max, quarters), same kind of machine, in same bank. then we slooooooooooowly bet in order, once the $20 has run through each machine, the person with the most credits left, gets all of the credits. the result is usually 45 minutes of fun, 1-2 free drinks per person with $1 tip each, and someone leaves up $60-$80, possibly more, but we do agree to split jackpots over $500 evenly. it's something that we all together because not everyone plays craps.
it is just entertainment, relatively affordable entertainment depending on where you live and the cost of substitutes.
the last time we were in vegas, six of us racked up a $1200 bar tab (with tax and tip) at tao beach in roughly 4 hours. obviously, there is a premium to be paid for eye-candy and ridiculously hot waitresses, but that hourly cost is about $50/hour.
slots cost about half of that.
September 13th, 2012 at 9:28:49 AM
permalink
Quote: MrVWhy play?
Because every time I push the "play" button, I know that "this could be the big one."
And you know what?
Sometimes it is.
Greed Gone Wild ...
You sound like my wife who plays slots. I'm strictly a table player.
After leaving the tables, I go looking for my wife.
When I find her at the slot machines, I tell her "You know a MONKEY can play the slots."
She always replies, "Yeah, but every once in a while, the MONKEY wins!"
September 13th, 2012 at 9:48:51 AM
permalink
Quote: MrVWhy play?
Because every time I push the "play" button, I know that "this could be the big one."
And you know what?
Sometimes it is.
Greed Gone Wild ...
I admit I enjoy them, although for the life of me- I can't understand the people who play two at time, side-by-side, furiously pushing The Button on each. Seems like it would detract from the enjoyment, at least it would for me...
Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.
September 13th, 2012 at 1:55:03 PM
permalink
Were they a linked Progressive?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 13th, 2012 at 1:58:11 PM
permalink
Quote: Mission146Were they a linked Progressive?
No! You see these people, just plugging away on two regular machines- no progressives- no rhyme or reason!
Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.
September 13th, 2012 at 2:03:40 PM
permalink
Better to just play one with a higher bet and better ER.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 13th, 2012 at 2:53:48 PM
permalink
Look, some of these people go from time to time surviving on those crackers that Dotty gives away free. Don't look for behavior guided by statistics or mathematical advantage or concepts of long term game expectations.Quote: Mission146Better to just play one with a higher bet and better ER.
September 17th, 2012 at 5:28:59 AM
permalink
When will I learn to play that 3rd coin. 
Friday night in Harrahs AC.
Friday night in Harrahs AC."They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
September 17th, 2012 at 7:04:02 AM
permalink
Decipher this for me: you played two quarters and won 1800 credits which is 450 dollars, but if you had in fact played that third quarter, what would you have won?
September 17th, 2012 at 7:07:05 AM
permalink
300 coins (3 red 7s) x triple = 900 coins x triple again = 2700 coins or $675. There was no extra bonus for 3rd coin, that is only on the top pay of 3 triple diamonds(double the jackpot for 3rd coin). But still would be nice if I collected the extra $225 for a quarter.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
September 17th, 2012 at 7:20:17 AM
permalink
Not being a slot machine player I don't know the answer to this, but is it possible that if you had the third coin in you wouldn't have hit that at all?
September 17th, 2012 at 7:39:08 AM
permalink
Quote: bwNot being a slot machine player I don't know the answer to this, but is it possible that if you had the third coin in you wouldn't have hit that at all?
Playing the third coin would make him no more or less likely to hit that. It's possible that he would not have hit the, "Spin," button when the RNG was at that point, but to suggest that makes the hit on the 3rd Coin less likely is simply a results-oriented assumption. In this case, he pressed the button at the right time, we know he pressed the button at the right time, but prior to the button being pressed (or even to him putting the money in the machine) you'd look at the hit as no more or less likely regardless of coins bet.
In this case, he didn't really get burned. Three Triple-Diamonds would have been a burn because you'd be looking at $1,000 vs. $500 for an extra coin in. In this case, Coin Bet did not have a negative effect relative to the win, he would have won the same percentage of his bet as he won in this case.
In the future, though, yes, your ER is better on this particular payout schedule if you Max Bet. Had you hit the Triple Triple Diamonds, you wouldn't be posting here right now about the money you lost by not Max Betting, you'd still be face-palming...no offense.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 17th, 2012 at 7:40:50 AM
permalink
Quote: bwNot being a slot machine player I don't know the answer to this, but is it possible that if you had the third coin in you wouldn't have hit that at all?
I've been told that before, that I wouldn't have hit the jackpot if I had the 3rd coin. How true is that? I don't think it matters. The only thing that matters is what the RNG generates the moment you decide to hit that button.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
September 17th, 2012 at 7:43:42 AM
permalink
Quote: NickyDimThe only thing that matters is what the RNG generates the moment you decide to hit that button.
Got it in one.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 17th, 2012 at 7:44:22 AM
permalink
Quote: Mission146It's possible that he would not have hit the, "Spin," button when the RNG was at that point
Most definitely. When I bet 2 coins I have to select 'bet one' twice and a "spin" or three clicks on the button, with a max bet I just hit one button, "max bet". So the RNG would not have been in the same place. I don't think about the what ifs because there are no what ifs, only what is or what was.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
September 17th, 2012 at 7:44:48 AM
permalink
Quote: NickyDimI've been told that before, that I wouldn't have hit the jackpot if I had the 3rd coin. How true is that? I don't think it matters. The only thing that matters is what the RNG generates the moment you decide to hit that button.
You are correct, it doesn't matter.
I do wonder, on games where there is a bonus feature: is the RNG already locked in, or is it regenerated for the bonuses? In practice it wouldn't matter either way, to the player the future unfolds as unknown to known; but it would be a fun thing to know.
A falling knife has no handle.
September 17th, 2012 at 7:47:44 AM
permalink
Quote: MoscaYou are correct, it doesn't matter.
I do wonder, on games where there is a bonus feature: is the RNG already locked in, or is it regenerated for the bonuses? In practice it wouldn't matter either way, to the player the future unfolds as unknown to known; but it would be a fun thing to know.
I'd like to think that for every individual game, whether it's a bonus round or not, the RNG is tapped for a result, independent of the game instance before or the game instance to follow.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
September 17th, 2012 at 12:18:08 PM
permalink
Quote: NickyDimI'd like to think that for every individual game, whether it's a bonus round or not, the RNG is tapped for a result, independent of the game instance before or the game instance to follow.
The thing is that for most pseudo-RNG algorithms, if you know one result, you know the nth after. Most slot machines are constantly generating numbers, so this doesn't matter, since n then depends on player timing to a resolution of milliseconds. However, if the bonus follows directly from the result without any player input, it might be biased somewhat based on what RNG results trigger an appropriate reel configuration. (I think most bonuses force player input, though, don't they? "Press button to trigger bonus feature"?)
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
September 17th, 2012 at 1:33:15 PM
permalink
- Because it's simple. Hit a button
- Because you're purchasing greater variance (in *both* directions) with a greater house edge. I'll never* win $1,000 playing $10 BJ for a few hours, but I can win that much and more in the push of a single 2-credit bet on a $5 machine.
- Because slots have built-in conditioning agents. When you win, it stimulates you (lights, noises) and most live beings are conditioned to seek that positive stimulation.
- Because, despite the increased house edge by percentage, it can have a lower raw (expressed in $). it can be *much* cheaper than tables.**
- Because people don't care about the details. This is different than "It's simple." There's no 3:2/6:5 controversy or chart telling you what you should do in every specific situation like a nagging spouse. There's not 80 different bets with different rules and different payouts that are not well-explained on a craps tub. You don't have to know the rules, hand rankings or math associated with poker
- Because it's diverse. People of all ages, races, creeds, colors and socio-economic backgrounds play slots. It's an experience that is more universal across the breadth of the general gambling population.
- Because you can come and go as you please. Nobody looks at you for playing 2 spins and leaving. You don't pause the larger game to buy in and then color out. Nobody accuses you of cheating because you happen to need to use the restroom on the back third of a depleted shoe.
Luckily, I've trained my woman not to play slots. She's a poker, Pai Gow, Blackjack gal. She can't do basic arithmetic (seriously, 8-4-2 and she'll ask the dealer what she has. And she'll do it again when she draws a 6), but she can recite basic strategy cold. If only I could un-glue her from her seat before she gets so tired that she makes goofy errors. 12 hours straight gets to anyone.
* Never say never, but it's very unlikely.
** My favorite 'slot' is a nickel video-blackjack machine in Coushatta (Kinder, LA Indian reservation) that plays H17, hit on split aces allowed, D9-11 (including on split aces), split to 2 hands, infinite decks. It's a strange rule-set, but it's a freaking nickel. Even if it had a 2% house edge (terrible for a BJ game), it costs me $0.001 (one tenth of a penny) per hand to play. I use this machine to teach anyone who wants to play BJ with me what to do in a 'live' capacity. If they screw up.. Ah well, it's a nickel.
September 17th, 2012 at 2:40:45 PM
permalink
If the payout was based solely on the timing of when the button was pressed, relative to the slot's RNG, how would the casino know what the payout percentage of the slot machine would be?
I always assumed that the next spin of the slot machine is already known to be a winner, whether it happens in 1 minute or 1 hour from now. Whenever the next spin occurs. That is determined by the RNG in the slot program. Is that not the case?
I always assumed that the next spin of the slot machine is already known to be a winner, whether it happens in 1 minute or 1 hour from now. Whenever the next spin occurs. That is determined by the RNG in the slot program. Is that not the case?
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 17th, 2012 at 2:55:29 PM
permalink
Quote: RaleighCrapsIf the payout was based solely on the timing of when the button was pressed, relative to the slot's RNG, how would the casino know what the payout percentage of the slot machine would be?
I always assumed that the next spin of the slot machine is already known to be a winner, whether it happens in 1 minute or 1 hour from now. Whenever the next spin occurs. That is determined by the RNG in the slot program. Is that not the case?
This is not my area of expertise but I believe the RNG is in constant motion whether the machine is being played or not. When the button is pushed it stops.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
September 17th, 2012 at 2:55:53 PM
permalink
Quote: RaleighCrapsIf the payout was based solely on the timing of when the button was pressed, relative to the slot's RNG, how would the casino know what the payout percentage of the slot machine would be?
I always assumed that the next spin of the slot machine is already known to be a winner, whether it happens in 1 minute or 1 hour from now. Whenever the next spin occurs. That is determined by the RNG in the slot program. Is that not the case?
I believe that used to be the case, but may still be with a few machines. My understanding of most current slot machines is that the RNG is on a continuous cycle, that cycle only stops when you hit the, "Spin," button and has already started again well prior to the completion of the spin. The RNG, as you know, correlates to the numbers of given reel assignments, and when the RNG is stopped, the reel-assignment correlating to those numbers goes to the middle spot on the reel.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 17th, 2012 at 3:09:10 PM
permalink
Thats about it. The RNG calculates something like 12,000 or more numbers per minute and the exact micro-second that the Red Button completes a circuit selects which one of those 12,000 to use but no part of the system "knows" anything in advance.
September 17th, 2012 at 3:14:35 PM
permalink
When I was in college, I went to the casino (which I now work at) with a friend of mine. He kept pumping in twenties in a penny slot, and he kept losing. Granted, most of the time, it would take awhile, but I was just watching. I asked him why he played. His response, and I paraphrase: "I just wanna get to the bonus. Gotta get to the bonus. It's all for the bonus. Bonus, bonus, bonus!"
For him, there was a clear end goal, to get to the "winning" round. This was how he believed he could win. I told him, if he took 80 bucks to the blackjack table, not only would his money last longer, but he would also probably have a better chance of winning money. But he refused to listen.
Quite frankly, slots offer something that the good table games don't--the chance to "win big", ie 100:1 payout or bigger. Yes, you can have long winning streaks on the tables, but they're really rare.
For him, there was a clear end goal, to get to the "winning" round. This was how he believed he could win. I told him, if he took 80 bucks to the blackjack table, not only would his money last longer, but he would also probably have a better chance of winning money. But he refused to listen.
Quite frankly, slots offer something that the good table games don't--the chance to "win big", ie 100:1 payout or bigger. Yes, you can have long winning streaks on the tables, but they're really rare.
September 17th, 2012 at 3:24:39 PM
permalink
Quote: RaleighCrapsIf the payout was based solely on the timing of when the button was pressed, relative to the slot's RNG, how would the casino know what the payout percentage of the slot machine would be?
I always assumed that the next spin of the slot machine is already known to be a winner, whether it happens in 1 minute or 1 hour from now. Whenever the next spin occurs. That is determined by the RNG in the slot program. Is that not the case?
It's sometimes the case, but even then, it's determined by the timing of the previous spin.
Not sure what you mean by your question, though. Why would it matter when it's decided? The payout percentage is determined just like the payout percentage of any other game, by EV. Do you think the spins follow a pattern? What do you think would happen if they did that?
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
September 17th, 2012 at 3:51:41 PM
permalink
Quote: 1BBThis is not my area of expertise but I believe the RNG is in constant motion whether the machine is being played or not. When the button is pushed it stops.
You take the average sum of all the possible values of the function/equation that drives the slot machine. Let's take a very simple (and completely made up) example of a RNG that generates 2 decimal places of numbers*. The range of values potentially generated as inputs to this function would be [00-99]. For the sake of argument, the input numbers are independent and have no sequence**
| Random Input | Output |
|---|---|
| 00 | Lose - 0 |
| 01 | 1 Cherry - 2 |
| 02 | Lose - 0 |
| 03 | Double Bars - 20 |
| ... | ... |
| 52 | 777 - 50 |
| ... | ... |
| 98 | 2 Cherries - 4 |
| 99 | 1 Cherries - 2 |
Because each input is independent** and equally probable, each output has a 1/100 (1%) chance of being selected. The hold (or house edge) for this machine is 100 - the sum of the payouts. Like most slot machines, there will be a lot of "Lose - 0" rows to facilitate the row that pays 50 while still yielding an overall house edge to the casino.
An individual's variance ("luck") against the house edge is determined by actually selecting some fixed number of inputs and working through what they won or lost over those bets. If they hit one of the few big payouts, they have a chance. If not, they're probably goin to end up in the red.
A real slot machine will take many more digits of randomness and have a much more complicated matrix matching random input to output. This is just speculation, but (in purely computer-based slots) the outputs could further honed to come close to winning combinations but simply miss one key element every way. Additional hold can be yielded by the granting of free games (that follow the same logic as above) and bonuses that follow a similar logic - the selection of individual items among a set can be generated with RNG input data and at that point the results are completely deterministic on the user's selections.
Physical reel slots are a little different, given the number of possible presentations is limited by the physical construction of the reels, themselves. However, the overall point holds true. There is a fixed number of places by which these reels can come to a rest. Therefore, there are a fixed set of combinations of presentations that directly map to a fixed (if large) set of events. Running the numbers on the total # of events and their payout outputs against the total number of inputs required to generate each potential output (aka - calculating the hold or house edge) is a straightforward (if longwinded and time consuming) endeavor.
*Computers and circuits are binary things so doing this on a decimal scale is somewhat contrived, but it illustrates the point
**Computers can't just "make stuff up," so technically any RNG is algorithmic on very, very large patterns. For the sake of argument, let's ignore this and just call it random.
September 23rd, 2012 at 11:33:44 AM
permalink
Ah...Sabertooth. With SUPER NUDGING STACKED WILDS.Quote: MoscaI've hit dozens of jackpots. Lifetime I'm behind, but there have been many months where I've been ahead. I play them because I like the sounds and the colors.
MathExtremist, you are singing my song. I make far, far more at work than I could ever make playing games in a casino. My goal in the casino is to enjoy myself. As far as speed of loss, I've lost money at craps so fast I got dizzy. The dice didn't seem to know that the odds were close to even.
These are all $2 bets, and all occurred within an hour or so. They're not in any order. I cashed out $450 on $100 in.
Also, I love the fact that there is a Dodo in this game, which only existed on the island of Mauritius and certainly isn't an "ice age" creature. And what is that little rat thing in the bottom left corner?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
