Supersietsie
Supersietsie
Joined: Jan 19, 2010
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August 22nd, 2012 at 2:16:48 PM permalink
Hello, i have recently developed an interest in slots and have a question about betting on machines with different kinds of wilds.
I noticed that on machines that have expanding wilds I tend to win with more lines, I'd say this is pretty logical since the entire reel becomes wild.
So basically I would like to know if lowering my bet per line and increasing lines played, keeping total bet the same, will increase my odds on these machines, or if it doesnt matter what i do.
I'm guessing its the latter, and if so, is that because the expanding wild are more rare than normal wilds?
JB
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JB
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August 22nd, 2012 at 2:53:43 PM permalink
In a game with expanding wilds, it depends on how the slot was designed. In some cases, it could be slightly better to play a specific number of paylines, but only if the slot was designed with different symbols surrounding the expanding wild.

You'll probably find that slots offering an expanding wild have the same symbols surrounding it, no matter what position the unexpanded wild symbol lands on.

Example 1:

ace - WILD - queen - jack - ten
king - queen -jack - ten - ace
queen - jack - ace - king - ten

ace - jack - queen - jack - ten
king - WILD -jack - ten - ace
queen - queen - ace - king - ten

ace - queen - queen - jack - ten
king - jack -jack - ten - ace
queen - WILD - ace - king - ten

In this case, the same two symbols (a jack and a queen) are always replaced by the expanded wild. In setups like this, the long-term return is the same no matter how many lines you play (as long as there is no progressive jackpot or something similar).


Example 2:

ace - WILD - queen - jack - ten
king - queen -jack - ten - ace
queen - jack - ace - king - ten

ace - ten - queen - jack - ten
king - WILD -jack - ten - ace
queen - queen - ace - king - ten

ace - ace - queen - jack - ten
king - ten -jack - ten - ace
queen - WILD - ace - king - ten

In this case, it DOES matter what paylines you play. You would need to know the rules, paytable, and payline configurations (which the help screen should show) as well as the reel strips (which you're unlikely to obtain from the game's manufacturer, but might be able to piece together), and then analyze the game when playing 1 to n lines, and determine which number of paylines returns the most.
Wizard
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Wizard
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August 22nd, 2012 at 3:49:08 PM permalink
I've designed hundreds of slots, several of which had expanding wilds. I always did it the "example 1" way, where the two symbols above and below the wild were always the same, so the same two symbols are always replaced, regardless where the wild falls on the reel. For example:

bacon
cheese
wild
bacon
cheese

Any respectable slot designer would do it the same way.

A bit off topic is one game where the return may vary according to number of lines bet is a game with cascading reels, like Davinci Diamonds. I know how I equalize the return, but would be interested in how the big slot makers do it.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
CrystalMath
CrystalMath
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August 22nd, 2012 at 3:59:27 PM permalink
I agree with JB. I've seen many, many, games with expanding wilds. Of those, I have only seen one that follows example 2. On that game, the difference was very small - not enough for any player to notice a difference.

As a mathematician desigining slot machines, I would never design a game following example 2.

Another method which I have seen is to pay for the winning combination both before and after the wild expands. In this case, the pay is the same regardless of the number of lines chosen.
I heart Crystal Math.
CrystalMath
CrystalMath
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August 22nd, 2012 at 4:02:27 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

A bit off topic is one game where the return may vary according to number of lines bet is a game with cascading reels, like Davinci Diamonds. I know how I equalize the return, but would be interested in how the big slot makers do it.



I'd be interested in knowing how anyone does this. I haven't designed a game like this, so I haven't put much thought into it. Many times, they take the easy way out and lock the player into playing all lines.
I heart Crystal Math.
Wizard
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Wizard
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August 22nd, 2012 at 4:56:32 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

I'd be interested in knowing how anyone does this. I haven't designed a game like this, so I haven't put much thought into it. Many times, they take the easy way out and lock the player into playing all lines.



I simply add mystery bonuses to the game. They pop up at seemingly random times and amounts to the player. However, I carefully balance the wins and probabilities to supplement to base game so that all number of coins bet add up to the same return, within 0.1% or so.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Supersietsie
Supersietsie
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August 23rd, 2012 at 2:12:28 AM permalink
Thanks for your reactions, what i dont understand however is why it matters what the wild replaces.
Since payout is left to right, shouldnt the focus be on the symbols to the left and right of it?
What i understand from your replies is that usually the reel on which the wild apears is the same.
Arent the surrounding reels different each spin though?
isabelg
isabelg
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October 9th, 2016 at 11:38:16 PM permalink
Just came across this thread. I realize it's super old.

Was just wondering why you would never design a game using example 2.
What's the significance of always having the same symbols be replaced?
Mobcasinos
Mobcasinos
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November 4th, 2016 at 9:46:58 PM permalink
When you play with more line it increase your chances of winning. Having more lines also increase you loses and can take a lot of your money. More line means higher bet.
JB
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JB
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November 4th, 2016 at 10:34:02 PM permalink
Quote: isabelg

What's the significance of always having the same symbols be replaced?


As mentioned above, it makes the math simple. Consider the following chunk of a reel strip:

1. BACON
2. CHEESE
3. WILD
4. BACON
5. CHEESE

Initially, the counts for this section are 2 BACON, 2 CHEESE, and 1 WILD.

If stops 1, 2, and 3 are in view, this section of the reel becomes:

WILD
WILD
WILD
BACON
CHEESE

If stops 2, 3, and 4 are in view, this section becomes:

BACON
WILD
WILD
WILD
CHEESE

If stops 3, 4, and 5 are in view, the section becomes:

BACON
CHEESE
WILD
WILD
WILD

So no matter where the actual wild symbol occurs (top, middle, or bottom), after it expands, it always replaces 1 BACON and 1 CHEESE. So you can simply subtract 1 BACON and 1 CHEESE and add those 2 subtracted symbols to the number of WILDs instead, then analyze the game as if it were a normal slot without expanding wilds.

If the replaced symbols differ based on where the actual WILD symbol occurs, then you need to make a different RTP calculation for each possible quantity of paylines, and the math quickly becomes a nightmare. By always replacing the same symbols, the number of paylines need not be taken into consideration; the return is the same whether playing 1 or 20 or 100 paylines.

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