1-2 no limit

WOW, what a difference in fixed limit poker and no limit poker. People are flooding the casinos to play no limit because they watch no limit on television. If people would take time to learn no limit poker the correct way they would realize how much money there is to be had. So many players like me sit down at the table , and just let the good players take my money. I always played fixed limit in the past but had no idea that no limit is so difficult. It looks easy on television, but when you seat down to play, it becomes the hardest game in the world. For those people who take time to learn to play no limit, are making money like they never dreamed of making. I'll give you an example of what happened to me the first time I played no limit. There were three of us in the pot and after the flop I had a set of 7's. i was going last, so I was in the best position.There were three hearts on the flop. The first and second player checked and I check also. A dead card hit the turn and the first and second player checked into me again. Playing for the first time, I was confused what i should do. I'm in the last position and had no idea what to do. I knew I had to bet, but how much should I bet. I knew someone must have a heart in there hand and I didn't want to give them a free card to see the river. I decide to go all in. I figured if someone was looking for that fourth heart they would be forced to fold. Well, I went all in and one guy called. He already had the king high flush on the flop. I was totally amazed that he check the flop and the turn with a flush. After the hand I was still confused on the way I played the hand. I was told afterwards the correct way I should have played the hand. Can anyone tell me how they would have played the hand. I'm telling you that this game is harder than it looks and when you learn to play the game right, you can make a good buck playing people like me. There are a lot of people like me that sit down at the table and have no idea that they don't have a chance of winning. Maybe get lucky the first time. I went back to playing fixed limit. television has made 1-2 no limit poker a gold mine for many good no limit players. They can sit at a table for eight or ten hours and make $500 to $600 with no problem.

At worst you had 10 outs out of the 46 remaining cards, even if the player had his flush, to make 4 of a kind or a full house. If the player actually already had a flush, you had 10 outs out of 44 remaining cards. The way you played the hand is not inherently wrong, or right. Were those 2 players previously bluffing? How much was your all in? Were YOU previously playing tight? You obviously misread the flush holder, but perhaps if he had the ace of hearts and king of spades, pairing with the king of hearts on the board, he goes in with you and you win. So don't beat yourself up over this. Consider it the beginning of a long learning curve.

Where would Vegas be without the poker boom?

In worse shape?

No limit is crazy if you ask me, but here is my 2 cents.

It is weak to play with a 7 in your hand unless you had a pair. No limit is so harrowing you might consider not even staying in with a low pair. If two 7's are in the flop and that's how you got your trips, everybody has a pair now and somebody might have a hidden Aces over or even a boat. So, IMHO you never are surprised to lose with a low pair even when it improves. Also, you showed weakness when you first checked. This can make the guy with the flush convinced you were bluffing, especially when a weak card came out ; he would be doubting that it was the card you were looking for, and if it was, all you had was trips. On the other hand, with the flush and the King, he could probably remember even recently losing to the guy with the Ace. His check made sense.

There are no doubt tables on the internet showing what you open with vis a vis the stakes involved. I'd take a look at those.

Please add some empty lines in long posts, it's too hard to read.

Quote: duckston09

There were three of us in the pot and after the flop I had a set of 7's. i was going last, so I was in the best position.There were three hearts on the flop. The first and second player checked and I check also. A dead card hit the turn and the first and second player checked into me again. Playing for the first time, I was confused what i should do. I'm in the last position and had no idea what to do. I knew I had to bet, but how much should I bet. I knew someone must have a heart in there hand and I didn't want to give them a free card to see the river. I decide to go all in.

That could have been a good decision against tight, not very aggressive players. But otherwise:
- By checking before, none of you indicated having a pat flush;
- The turn didn't change your position;
With a scary flop, someone was bound to try a bluff or semi-bluff. Since there was one card left, a draw semi-bluff was expected.
If you weren't playing very aggressively before, an all-in just marked you perfectly. The player with the flush was intentionally waiting for a semi-bluffer to catch, with a flop like that.

Really you were closer to a cold bluff than a semi-bluff even, and that wasn't really worth doing. For a successful bluff, don't send mixed signals. Not that it would have helped here, but still. By raising on the flop, you could get players who missed it to fold, and you'd be aware that the calling player has a hand.

Quote: duckston09

Can anyone tell me how they would have played the hand.

It's too hard to tell. Depends on how loose or tight the table was. Without past information, I would probably just check and see what happens, play for value on the river. Making a small bet (less than half the pot) would do nothing, making a proper bet (pot or more) was inviting trouble. 7 is a low card. Any flush, any higher set would drown you.

A set of sevens is still a bluffcatcher, however, so... Well, once again depends on what I know about other players. If the player with king-flush was a strong one and raised on the river, I's give him credit for actually having a strong hand, likely not a flush, but say a high set. If he's been making bad moves before, a raise on the river could be seen as a bad bluff. Generally, it was a losing situation already, with a slowplayed nut hand in play. You risked too much without a sufficient chance at a payoff.

Quote: duckston09

I'm telling you that this game is harder than it looks and when you learn to play the game right, you can make a good buck playing people like me. There are a lot of people like me that sit down at the table and have no idea that they don't have a chance of winning. Maybe get lucky the first time. I went back to playing fixed limit. television has made 1-2 no limit poker a gold mine for many good no limit players. They can sit at a table for eight or ten hours and make $500 to $600 with no problem.

Well, not so easily... there are runs of luck going down, and there can be other strong players at the table.

But yes, NLH is a very different game from fixed limit. They have similar rules, but Fixed Limit is a game of probabilities, like blackjack, with an element of deception; No Limit is a game of outright intimidation. Basic probability understanding, as learned in FL, still plays a major role, but it's only one of the tools that need to be employed.

Quote: odiousgambit

It is weak to play with a 7 in your hand unless you had a pair. No limit is so harrowing you might consider not even staying in with a low pair. If two 7's are in the flop and that's how you got your trips, everybody has a pair now and somebody might have a hidden Aces over or even a boat.

"Flopping a set of 7s" means he had a pair already - even if not distinguishing between a set and trips, since the flop was all hearts, there could be just one 7 there.

77 was an acceptable hand to play, at least in position, but his out was a dry flop with a 7; when the flop came suited, the set became weaker than the middle pair was in the first place.

Here's my advice. Mind you, hind-sight is 20/20.

Going all-in sends a very specific message: You do NOT want any callers, because you either have a hand like what you have and are afraid of someone drawing a flush, or you have flush and are afraid of drawing a better flush, or you have the nuts and are afraid someone with a set will boat up. Either way, going all in on the turn, after checking the flop, usually rules out the nut flush. This tells the player with the king high flush that his hand is probably the best.

If you had the ace high flush, you'd make a reasonable bet, right on the flop, trying to get paid off. If you had the Ace high draw, you might bet just to build the pot hoping to get another heart. In your case, you should have been afraid of the flush, but bet a few bucks to get an idea of where you stand, as well as to build the pot so you're paid off if the board pairs.

Mind you, your hand is NOT great. a set of 7's is easily beaten not just by the flush, but by a higher set, or even a straight. Were there straight cards out there?


My advice: Find a poker league in your area. They generally play in bars and restaurants. They are free, but you're kinda expected to patronize the venue.

The key is, in the league, you're able to ask questions, and get honest answers. You can never be sure of the answers you get in a casino from the people that are trying to take your money.

I don't think there is much you could have done with that hand. Let's say the flop was 4, 7, J all hearts. Besides the flush, you have the 2nd best hand.

The guy with the King flush is pretty much committed to staying in the hand all in unless the board pairs or a fourth heart comes up.

If you bet $20 after the flop, he's probably calling.

The turn is a blank, you bet $20-$40 again, he's either calling you or raising you. If he raises you, do you think you're strong/smart enough to fold a set of 7's against his flush? I'm not, which is why I play limit.

Basically, I'm trying to say that maybe you weren't going to lose your whole stack that hand, but you'd have to be the smartest player ever not to lose any money that hand.

Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Where would Vegas be without the poker boom?

In worse shape?

Only marginally. Poker isn't a major moneymaker for casinos - they don't bank the action. Same for bingo, for what it's worth -- I've had operators tell me that bingo is basically break-even for them, and it's really just to get players in the casino to play slots between breaks. I wouldn't be surprised if drop on other table games went up as a result of poker players, and that generating more revenue than the poker room itself.

I play no-limit exclusively, mainly because limit is too slow paced for my style.

I am tight aggressive, passive pre-flop, aggressive post-flop.

Preflop if I have premium I am raising 3x the BB plus 1 for every caller. Speculative hands like 77, or suited connectors I am just calling in position.

Postflop I am always betting 75% of the pot if I still like my hand. I only check raise/call when I have a monster.

I think you could of avoiding going broke by not bgoing all-in. Think about what sort of hands are going to call an all-in. Your looking at a higher set, or a made hand. The expected value in going all-in there is very low. You might of got away if you had bet 50-75% of the pot, and the flush had raised.

Sometimes you are in a tough spot and can only recognize an error in judgement when play is over and you see everyone's cards. I do think a better way to play this hand would have been bet half the pot on the flop, even though it gives a flush draw theoretical proper odds to call. They might be getting 3 to 1 but the chances of the turn being a heart are at best a little over 4:1. When no heart hits the turn, bet the pot and price him out of a draw and take the pot down. Since in this case he already had the flush on the flop there is a good chance he would have check raised your flop bet and you would know what you are dealing with. If he would have checked called your flop and river bet he was just patient and outplayed you, not much you can do. A big mistake was making a bet only to scare people off, not intending to get called. The majority of the time the only call you get will beat you and the other times you won't get called, so a very -ev bet.

Quote: clarkacal

Sometimes you are in a tough spot and can only recognize an error in judgement when play is over and you see everyone's cards. I do think a better way to play this hand would have been bet half the pot on the flop, even though it gives a flush draw theoretical proper odds to call. They might be getting 3 to 1 but the chances of the turn being a heart are at best a little over 4:1. When no heart hits the turn, bet the pot and price him out of a draw and take the pot down. Since in this case he already had the flush on the flop there is a good chance he would have check raised your flop bet and you would know what you are dealing with. If he would have checked called your flop and river bet he was just patient and outplayed you, not much you can do. A big mistake was making a bet only to scare people off, not intending to get called. The majority of the time the only call you get will beat you and the other times you won't get called, so a very -ev bet.

I think a bet on the flop has value to. A raise would at least signal a big draw. It has to be an awful flop for 7's though. The king high flush should be looking to price out a potential nut flush draw for someone holding the ace of hearts. He might of thought you had the ace of hearts.

I was playing for about 20 minutes to a half hour when this hand occurred. I started with $200.00 and had about $170.00 or $180.00 in my stack. I had pocket 7's and made the bet $15.00. Three people behind me folded, putting me in last position. It was to early to know the tight players and loose players. What surprised me was, when it came my turn, I was really confused because I always play fix limit. Watching on television is a lot different than playing live. (i was playing in a casino).That's why I went a long with the check after the flop (whether I was right or wrong) because I needed time to think.

Clarkocal, I agree with you. I should have felt him out a little bit, in terms of a smaller bet. There was no reason to lose all my money in that pot. Remember, he dosen't want to lose me, so he would have made maybe $60.00 to $100.00 of me.

Quote: duckston09

....because I needed time to think.

Then you should have taken the time to think.

There's no time limit. After a while, the dealer may remind you that it's your turn, because it does happen occasionally where the person doesn't realize the action is on him. Other than that, you can take however long you want, until another player calls for the clock. At that point, you have, usually, 60 seconds.

I just had a chance to read all the responses and I thank you all. Another thing that confused me was , when I went all in, he hesitated. There was no way he was going to fold the hand, but after he hesitated I thought the hand was mine. In fact his exact words were "O.K., I call, then he stood up. After seeing my three sevens he was repeatedly saying , NO PAIR, NO PAIR. . i was just so baffled on the whole concept of the way the hand played out compared to fix limit.

Quote: duckston09

I just had a chance to read all the responses and I thank you all. Another thing that confused me was , when I went all in, he hesitated. There was no way he was going to fold the hand, but after he hesitated I thought the hand was mine.

I can't count all the times I stayed in with a full house - and lost. Despite that, only folded a FH in a live cash game once. His flush was beatable by an ace-high one, so he was right to take a moment to think. And then, again, right to decide to call.

DJTeddyBear, what happened was, when it came my turn after the flop, I did sit there and think a little bit. But it seemed the more I thought, the more confused I became (in fact, I was getting a little nervous). That's the reason I check on the flop. I forget who said it, but I suggest never getting in a no limit game unless you practice somewhere to get the full understanding of the game.

He hestitated as he was trying to think if you hand the ace-high flush, a draw to an ace high flush or a set/two-pair.

Raising the 7's in middle position is probably a bit loose... you'll be called by a lot of better hands, and you really need a 7 on the flop to continue with it. Any ace or face on the flop and your raise is called pre-flop and your making a hard decision if you don't make the set

A bet on the flop would have done wonders... if he smooth calls you can continue the bet on the river. There your semi-bluffing... you can be bluffing you have a flush, and drawing to the house. Course if he smooth calls the flop, he might have the nut flush already, and hoping you get a card that gets you in trouble (hence his check on the flop), so a continuation bet on the turn might also get called, but I would expect the ace-high flush to be raising at this point on the flop once he's seen action in front to make a weaker flush pay him off and to give the wrong price to anyone drawing to a full house.

If you get raised on the flop, you can get away from the hand. Same on the turn, a half to 3/4 pot bet you can fold to anything aggressive coming back at you.

Basically, a middle set on the flop wants to win the hand as soon as possible. A middle set on a 3 flush flop REALLY wants to win it as soon as possible. Try to win it there and if not walk away for much less than your stack.

Quote: duckston09

DJTeddyBear, what happened was, when it came my turn after the flop, I did sit there and think a little bit. But it seemed the more I thought, the more confused I became (in fact, I was getting a little nervous).

Understood.

Quote: duckston09

I forget who said it, but I suggest never getting in a no limit game unless you practice somewhere to get the full understanding of the game.

Well, I kinda said something similar.

Join a poker pub league.

but I suggest never getting in a no limit game unless you practice somewhere to get the full understanding of the game.

Now you got it!

Hi Thecesspit, What really made me mad was, when I go to a casino with friends, I play 2-4 fixed limit, and win or lose, I enjoy myself. Losing $200.00 in a game I had no business getting into, was really frustrating. Obviously you have a great deal of experience in no limit poker. I can tell from your response, that your a good no limit player. Nice hearing from you again.

>WizardofEngland

I think the line you are looking for is "tis better to keep thy mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."

but i suppose there are variations. Thanks for the refresher

Grunch:

Quote: duckston09

There were three of us in the pot and after the flop I had a set of 7's. i was going last, so I was in the best position.There were three hearts on the flop. The first and second player checked and I check also.

You should be betting here much of the time. A set is a strong hand. Even if you're facing a flopped flush, you have a one in three chance to beat it. If someone flopped a flush draw, you don't want to give them a free chance to catch that flush. Half pot or so should deny proper pot odds to draws, and shouldn't commit you if villain decides to push back. If everyone folds, there likely wasn't any money to be made here.

Quote: duckston09

A dead card hit the turn and the first and second player checked into me again. Playing for the first time, I was confused what i should do. I'm in the last position and had no idea what to do. I knew I had to bet, but how much should I bet. I knew someone must have a heart in there hand and I didn't want to give them a free card to see the river.

Charging a draw is a reasonable reason to bet (like I said on the flop)...

Quote: duckston09

I decide to go all in.

...but shoving here is the worst possible move...

Quote: duckston09

I figured if someone was looking for that fourth heart they would be forced to fold.

...and that is the reason.

Here's the thing: if villain is on a flush draw, you don't want him to fold. You want him to stick around. putting money in the pot, while he hopes that he can catch his flush. You need to bet enough to deny him pot odds, but not so much that you chase him off. You're better than four to one to win the hand, so you don't need to bet a whole lot to deny him odds, either; one-third pot will do the trick. Conversely, a huge bet here can really only be called by a flush.

There's basically a couple reasons to bet:

1. You think a worse hand will call.
2. You think you can get a better hand to fold.

In this case, you're probably not getting a better hand to fold. A flush isn't folding here, especially at $1-2, and a higher set probably isn't, either. So you're left with betting for value vs. a flush draw (or two pair, or TPTK, but you have those pretty well dominated).

Now we talk about bet sizing. All your huge bet accomplishes here is to chase the worse hands away. The only hands that can look you up here are flopped flushes, and probably most flushes at this level (not just the high ones). $1-$2 players tend to think in terms of "LOL I has a flush," so they're not likely to care that you might have a better flush, they'll just look you up. So that huge bet negates the first reason to bet, because you're not going to get any value from it (a worse hand won't give you any more money, and better hand will take your money). Therefore, there's no reason to make a huge bet.

A smaller bet (one-third to one-half pot) stands a much better chance of getting called by a draw.

Now, if you get called here, I'd be in favor of shutting it down on the river if you don't improve your hand:

• If the fourth heart comes and villain bets, I'm tossing my hand; if checked to, I'm checking behind because there's no real value to be had by betting (only a flush can sanely call a bet, and even at $1-$2, I don't think insanity is prevalent enough to make betting here a good play).
• If it's another blank and villain bets, I'm probably calling, crying all the way (dependent upon villain, of course). If checked to, I'd still lean towards checking behind, because again, there's not much value to be had here (although more than with four hearts on board).

Of course, all of this assumes that you don't improve your set. If you do, your job now becomes coaxing villain into putting all his chips in the middle.

Quote: duckston09

Well, I went all in and one guy called. He already had the king high flush on the flop. I was totally amazed that he check the flop and the turn with a flush.

LOL $1-$2

Seriously, flopping a king-high flush, he's probably slowplaying it. It's probably am OK strategy here. Slowplaying is usually not good unless you're so far ahead of everyone else that they need a chance to catch up (but not pass, of course) before they'll commit more money to the pot.

Quote: WizardofEngland

I play no-limit exclusively, mainly because limit is too slow paced for my style.

I am tight aggressive, passive pre-flop, aggressive post-flop.

Preflop if I have premium I am raising 3x the BB plus 1 for every caller. Speculative hands like 77, or suited connectors I am just calling in position.

Postflop I am always betting 75% of the pot if I still like my hand. I only check raise/call when I have a monster.

I think you could of avoiding going broke by not bgoing all-in. Think about what sort of hands are going to call an all-in. Your looking at a higher set, or a made hand. The expected value in going all-in there is very low. You might of got away if you had bet 50-75% of the pot, and the flush had raised.

This is a nice recipe, it's called "profiting as a nit", and it's nothing to be ashamed of, and highly effective at good comp rooms globally.

Many thanks to wildqat and jimmyfocker. All the responses have been very helpful. In fact , after reading everybodys views gives me more incentive to learn this game. I was content on just playing fixed limit. But there are so many different strategies in no limit that I am determined to learn this game. Thanks again

Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

This is a nice recipe, it's called "profiting as a nit", and it's nothing to be ashamed of, and highly effective at good comp rooms globally.

Total profit since Januray = £4,304.23
Total last year = £22,812

You can always look me up on topsharkpro if you doubt it.....

Nothing nitty about ANY profit