Krispy519
Krispy519
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January 5th, 2024 at 10:54:14 AM permalink
EDIT: I screwed up linking the pics below so i added the direct link.

In my ever expanding search for the best EV, I found a site that has a Modified version of Joker Poker. It has several differences to what I see as common: The paytable heavily modifies the top half of the big payouts. Also, if the first 5 cards qualify for the paytable you can take the cash without drawing more. If you don't have a qualifying hand you have to pay your original bet again to draw. So from what I gather the pay table is structured to pay as if you had to double your bet.

In the example picture below the Bet is $5, draw for another $5, get 2 pair get paid $10. This the same as i have found on other Jokers Wild. Two pair is basically a Push.



This is a picture from Beating Bonuses website, lots of great tools, showing the EV.



Play the Demo for free here:

https://betonred.com/game/wazdan-joker-poker?demo=true

So, where did I go wrong? Or did I truly find a +EV video poker? I also the assume the take the cash on a qualifying first hand improves the EV?
Dieter
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Dieter
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January 5th, 2024 at 10:57:12 AM permalink
Please PM me with the images and links.

https://wizardofvegas.com/new/message/to/Dieter/


edit: blanking, spam filter probation elapsed
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxelWolf
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January 5th, 2024 at 1:55:06 PM permalink
Quote: Krispy519

EDIT: I screwed up linking the pics below so i added the direct link.

In my ever expanding search for the best EV, I found a site that has a Modified version of Joker Poker. It has several differences to what I see as common: The paytable heavily modifies the top half of the big payouts. Also, if the first 5 cards qualify for the paytable you can take the cash without drawing more. If you don't have a qualifying hand you have to pay your original bet again to draw. So from what I gather the pay table is structured to pay as if you had to double your bet.

In the example picture below the Bet is $5, draw for another $5, get 2 pair get paid $10. This the same as i have found on other Jokers Wild. Two pair is basically a Push.



This is a picture from Beating Bonuses website, lots of great tools, showing the EV.



Play the Demo for free here:

https://betonred.com/game/wazdan-joker-poker?demo=true

So, where did I go wrong? Or did I truly find a +EV video poker? I also the assume the take the cash on a qualifying first hand improves the EV?
link to original post

I do not believe this software provider deals a fair video poker RNG.

With that being said, you need to make your own judgment call, because I don't have enough experience or data to back that statement up.

What evidence do I have that makes me believe their video poker is gafed? I have run across their other video poker games online with pay tables that were too good to be true. The average video poker player would beat the pay tables I've seen silly. I'm talking about a 9/6 Jacks or better where they're throwing in a joker, or something like that.
I suggest you do your own investigation and testing, as I would hate to steer someone in the wrong direction only to find out they have given up an Advantage Play situation.

It's possible that only games with specific juiced up paytables are gaffed, while others are not. Possibly this is a newer version of their software and they no longer use gaffed software.

If you wanted to test the software, I would reach out to The Wizard to see what he suggests. If He suggests testing in fun mode, I would disregard his suggestion.

I noticed that you found that game on BetOnRed casino, this casino started in 2022(not available in the USA) so far they have a pretty good reputation.

Seems like they even have a casino rep at LCB.

https://lcb.org/casinos/betonred-casino

They have 150% up to £200 (I don't know if that means you can deposit £200 and get an extra £300 or if the max bonus is £200)

If I recall correctly, that software provider allows you to play as low as 20 cents per hand, however, I'm not sure if VP is allowed at that particular casino while taking a bonus. If you are allowed to use a bonus and they have as low as 20 cents a hand, you can certainly get in a decent sample size for testing.

When testing, I highly suggest three things. Screen record, screen record, screen record.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Jan 5, 2024
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
heatmap
heatmap
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January 5th, 2024 at 4:20:39 PM permalink
Axel I have a paradox for you

Every unfair random number generator also produces the same permutations combinations as a fair one but at a different times
AxelWolf
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January 5th, 2024 at 5:19:41 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Axel I have a paradox for you

Every unfair random number generator also produces the same permutations combinations as a fair one but at a different times
link to original post

I believe what you're saying to me is that the overall results will be the same but the path getting there doesn't necessarily use a traditional RNG.

If that's what you're saying, I can't disagree, I feel the same way about class II. I don't care if it's random or not, I only care what the overall payback is. Assuming I'm not trying to vulture something based on class 3, or playing a promotion that's dependent on certain line hits.

I still wouldn't take on faith alone that this provider is offering a +EV game off the top. It's not a new provider, they've been around for years. I have no clue how long that game has been out for.
I'm certain there's no way some of the video poker games I ran into from that software provider could be offering the EV that the paytable suggested as if it were a standard random Vegas-style video poker game.

However, I do think this particular game might be worth investigating because there are multiple online casinos that offer that game provider, so if it's legitimately paying back 100.9% there's huge potential if done correctly. I don't know what would happen if people if started crushing the game. I don't know if they have the ability to mass update for the software at all the casinos if they were to catch on.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Dieter
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Dieter
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January 6th, 2024 at 12:01:22 AM permalink
Is this a "video poker" where the discards are shuffled back into the stub?

(I'm not firing up a VPN to bypass their location blocker.)
May the cards fall in your favor.
Krispy519
Krispy519
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January 6th, 2024 at 3:59:06 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Is this a "video poker" where the discards are shuffled back into the stub?

(I'm not firing up a VPN to bypass their location blocker.)
link to original post



Sorry for the slow reply, was in Newbie posting jail. I'll edit this if needed to reply.

It has the odd feature of an ante bet and cashing out or folding on the flop. If you cash out before drawing cards you win with just your ante. If you discard 5 cards, you lose your ante. Keep/Hold any cards, to Click Draw you have to match your ante. I think the +EV comes in is knowing when its a -EV 5 card flop but still better than paying for a new hand with new choices. Ill look for other sites that have the exact same game.

I'll add Links here :

https://www.livebet.com/casino/table-games/wazdan/joker-poker
Last edited by: Krispy519 on Jan 6, 2024
AxelWolf
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January 6th, 2024 at 4:54:17 PM permalink
Quote: Krispy519

Quote: Dieter

Is this a "video poker" where the discards are shuffled back into the stub?

(I'm not firing up a VPN to bypass their location blocker.)
link to original post



Sorry for the slow reply, was in Newbie posting jail. I'll edit this if needed to reply.

It has the odd feature of an ante bet and cashing out or folding on the flop. If you cash out before drawing cards you win with just your ante. If you discard 5 cards, you lose your ante. Keep/Hold any cards, to Click Draw you have to match your ante. I think the +EV comes in is knowing when its a -EV 5 card flop but still better than paying for a new hand with new choices. Ill look for other sites that have the exact same game.

I'll add Links here :

https://www.livebet.com/casino/table-games/wazdan/joker-poker
link to original post

If you believe this game to be fair why not look into their other VP games that would yield a much higher percentage to the player? I didn't do the calculations but in thinking in the 115% range at least.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Krispy519
Krispy519
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January 6th, 2024 at 5:02:19 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Krispy519

Quote: Dieter

Is this a "video poker" where the discards are shuffled back into the stub?

(I'm not firing up a VPN to bypass their location blocker.)
link to original post



Sorry for the slow reply, was in Newbie posting jail. I'll edit this if needed to reply.

It has the odd feature of an ante bet and cashing out or folding on the flop. If you cash out before drawing cards you win with just your ante. If you discard 5 cards, you lose your ante. Keep/Hold any cards, to Click Draw you have to match your ante. I think the +EV comes in is knowing when its a -EV 5 card flop but still better than paying for a new hand with new choices. Ill look for other sites that have the exact same game.

I'll add Links here :

https://www.livebet.com/casino/table-games/wazdan/joker-poker
link to original post

If you believe this game to be fair why not look into their other VP games that would yield a much higher percentage to the player? I didn't do the calculations but in thinking in the 115% range at least.
link to original post



I have been looking, thats the first AP online machine i found
Dieter
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Dieter
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January 6th, 2024 at 5:26:25 PM permalink
Maybe it's just my browser, but I can't figure out how to hold/release cards.

In autoplay mode, it certainly feels like a 96% game, as they advertise.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Krispy519
Krispy519
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January 6th, 2024 at 6:07:35 PM permalink
DON"T autoplay. it makes bad choices..like higher -EV. and you can't cash out on the Ante wins
AxelWolf
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January 6th, 2024 at 6:40:39 PM permalink
Quote: Krispy519

DON"T autoplay. it makes bad choices..like higher -EV. and you can't cash out on the Antetheir
link to original post

I can confirm their outo play is horrible IF you are going by conventional math and strategy.

With that being said, the outo play suggestions might be tailored to their (Gaffed) game's.

Some may be thinking AxelWolf lost and is soured by his results. Well, I actually got lucky and hit some good jackpots (I do have screen shots)

Getting to those results is what matters and I know it wasn't random generated hands. It was impossible to have the hands I witnessed come up randomly.

I'm up over 4k on their VP and I still think it's Gaffed
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Krispy519
Krispy519
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January 6th, 2024 at 7:45:13 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Krispy519

DON"T autoplay. it makes bad choices..like higher -EV. and you can't cash out on the Antetheir
link to original post

I can confirm their outo play is horrible IF you are going by conventional math and strategy.

With that being said, the outo play suggestions might be tailored to their (Gaffed) game's.

Some may be thinking AxelWolf lost and is soured by his results. Well, I actually got lucky and hit some good jackpots (I do have screen shots)

Getting to those results is what matters and I know it wasn't random generated hands. It was impossible to have the hands I witnessed come up randomly.

I'm up over 4k on their VP and I still think it's Gaffed
link to original post



Excellent, gaffed profit still smells the same :) I am a size "Two Weeks in Aruba" if your looking at getting me a present :)

Are you playing for real dollars?
Dobrij
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January 7th, 2024 at 4:16:30 AM permalink
My browser does not open the game, apparently I need a VPN.

I entered the payout table into the Wizard's calculator and it shows +0.96%. And using the obtained probabilities, I made several simulations over a distance of 1 million games. With short distance breakdowns of 1000 and 100 games.

The probability of being in a positive result after 1000 games = 41%, after 100 games = 33%. Profit per million hands is approximately 1% of bets.


But to get this profit, you need to play without mistakes all the time. And you need to be sure that there is no adaptive algorithm.
Dobrij
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January 7th, 2024 at 4:24:19 AM permalink
And this is what the charts will look like for 10,000 hands. As you can see, such a distance does not guarantee profit, so such a game is not attractive to an advanced player

According to my calculations, the probability of having a positive result in 10 thousand hands is approximately 50%, in my opinion this is not enough for a positive game

Krispy519
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January 7th, 2024 at 8:52:19 AM permalink
Wow, even more resources found here, excellent. When I played alongside the strategy calculator for about an hour, it certainly felt like treading water with one water wing. I could see it maybe as a way to unlock a bonus deposit, but video poker has a poor ratio usually 0-10%. My current attempt at AP is in another game called Aviator. I started another thread in Online Gaming for it.

Thanks for the graph insights.
AxelWolf
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January 7th, 2024 at 8:58:27 AM permalink
Quote: Dobrij

And this is what the charts will look like for 10,000 hands. As you can see, such a distance does not guarantee profit, so such a game is not attractive to an advanced player

According to my calculations, the probability of having a positive result in 10 thousand hands is approximately 50%, in my opinion this is not enough for a positive game


link to original post

If it's legitimate then it's definitely of interest.
A program can be made to auto-play it. Some online casinos offer cash for points, loss rebates, and deposit bonuses as well.

I believe the bet levels are fairly high, so in theory, we are talking up to 1k per hour. Finding a trustworthy casino that will pay isn't impossible, but it's not easy.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Krispy519
Krispy519
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January 7th, 2024 at 9:43:57 AM permalink
Seems intriguing, but at such a low +EV manually playing this out seemed too tedious. The built in autoplay card selector is horrible so you'd have to build it from scratch.
AxelWolf
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January 7th, 2024 at 12:46:35 PM permalink
Quote: Krispy519

Seems intriguing, but at such a low +EV manually playing this out seemed too tedious. The built in autoplay card selector is horrible so you'd have to build it from scratch.
link to original post

I don't think it's low EV if you think beyond the game itself.

I saw a 200% deposit bonus of up to $2,000 that offers this game. That comes with a significant wagering requirement, but that's not a big deal since it's a +EV off the top and you can bet fairly high. Add in all the extras such as points to cash, points contests, rebates etc and it's no longer a low EV.

I'm sure there are all kinds of deals around.

I could probably have an autoplay program made in a short time but it's not necessary given the higher limits.

Again, this is assuming it's a fair game and casino, that's the biggest obstacle.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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January 7th, 2024 at 1:04:31 PM permalink
Quote: Krispy519

As suspected.

Game Info
Game type: Video Poker

RTP: 96.07%

Max Win: 1000x bet

Volatility: High

Theme: Casino

Release date: 2014-08-09
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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