4 AND 5-card poker hands - survey

Table games like Caribbean Stud, Mississippi Stud, and Let it Ride, are 5-card stud variants with 5-card poker hands. Other games like 4-card Poker and Crazy 4 Poker use 5 cards to make the best 4-card poker hand. Why not both?

I'm an aspiring game inventor and this concept is one of my main innovations (don't worry this information doesn't give away my full idea). I've asked 2 people who have had over a decade in the gaming innovation industry. Each of them said the same thing, it just won't work. I have to either have just 5-card hands, or just 4-card hands. Neither of them gave me an in-depth answer but one gave some remarks about trouble with regulators and the integrity of poker. Assuming the latter is the largest obstacle, what do you think?

I know for certain these people are smart and don't think the same as the average Joe Gambler, so I want to know what the players think.

If YOU play poker and/or casino table games, I want YOUR opinion. I don't want to know what you think will or will not work. Sadly, I have no playable demo, but grab yourself a deck of cards, deal out 5 and let me know if it'd be fun to add 4-card hands as well.

The math of the game is of no concern. The hierarchy is as follows
5-card royal
5-card straight flush
4-card royal
Four of a Kind
4-card straight flush
Full House
5-card Flush
5-card Straight
Three of a Kind
4-card Flush
4-card Straight
Two Pair
Pair
High Card

I must confess it is actually easier to get a 4Flush than a 4Straight, but the difference is small enough to where I believe the consistency of a flush beating a straight is more important

Just to clarify, this would be for a 5 card game, correct? Because, if it is for a 7 card game like Texas hold-em the frequency of 4-card straights and flushes would be high enough that it would greatly alter the game.

I think its interesting.

Quote: richodude

Table games like Caribbean Stud, Mississippi Stud, and Let it Ride, are 5-card stud variants with 5-card poker hands. Other games like 4-card Poker and Crazy 4 Poker use 5 cards to make the best 4-card poker hand. Why not both?

I'm an aspiring game inventor and this concept is one of my main innovations (don't worry this information doesn't give away my full idea). I've asked 2 people who have had over a decade in the gaming innovation industry. Each of them said the same thing, it just won't work. I have to either have just 5-card hands, or just 4-card hands. Neither of them gave me an in-depth answer but one gave some remarks about trouble with regulators and the integrity of poker. Assuming the latter is the largest obstacle, what do you think?

I know for certain these people are smart and don't think the same as the average Joe Gambler, so I want to know what the players think.

If YOU play poker and/or casino table games, I want YOUR opinion. I don't want to know what you think will or will not work. Sadly, I have no playable demo, but grab yourself a deck of cards, deal out 5 and let me know if it'd be fun to add 4-card hands as well.

The math of the game is of no concern. The hierarchy is as follows
5-card royal
5-card straight flush
4-card royal
Four of a Kind
4-card straight flush
Full House
5-card Flush
5-card Straight
Three of a Kind
4-card Flush
4-card Straight
Two Pair
Pair
High Card

I must confess it is actually easier to get a 4Flush than a 4Straight, but the difference is small enough to where I believe the consistency of a flush beating a straight is more important
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4 of a kind between 4 card Royal and 4 card straight flush seems wrong. The rest is generally intuitive. You’ll have to tell us more to even guess as to if it would be of interest as a gambling game.

Quote: gordonm888

Just to clarify, this would be for a 5 card game, correct? Because, if it is for a 7 card game like Texas hold-em the frequency of 4-card straights and flushes would be high enough that it would greatly alter the game.

I think its interesting.
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right. The entire point is that a 5 card game makes it incredibly difficult to make premium exciting hands. The addition of 4-card hands gives in-between hands to keep the game exciting. If it was only 4-card hands, if you happen to make a full house or another 5 card hand, you'll be significantly downgraded and I can only imagine how disappointed I'd be.

Are the 4-card hands paid as an optional side bet?

Quote: SOOPOO

4 of a kind between 4 card Royal and 4 card straight flush seems wrong. The rest is generally intuitive. You’ll have to tell us more to even guess as to if it would be of interest as a gambling game.
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I can agree but here is the frequency table

royal flush	4
straight flush	36
4 card royal	188
quads	624
4 card straight flush	1844
full house	3744
flush	5108
straight	10200
trips	54912
4 card flush	134888
4 card straight	121536
two pair	123552
pair	1030656
high card	1111668
total	2598960

You can see why it is reasonable to swap 4flush and 4straight, but quads and 4sflush is tougher

You can apply this to any 5-stud game out there like Caribbean Stud. Paytables will be off, but that is fine for a demonstration. Any more details of my game are a secret

Quote: Dieter

Are the 4-card hands paid as an optional side bet?
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if your question is asking if my game has something similar to the Queens Up side bet on Crazy 4 Poker, I don't. The entire focus is both 4 and 5-card hands simultaneously. I have something like that integrated as an ante bonus though

BTW, in 4 Card Poker, the player was dealt 5 cards to make the best 4 card poker hand, and the dealer was dealt 6 cards to make the best 4 card poker hand. So those have already been done.

I like the 4 card straight/flush concept, as it makes things interesting for a player since a 5 card straight/flush can be very difficult to achieve without more cards. However, the complexity of a 14 line hierarchy is going to be a challenging sell to dealers, potentially confusing for players, and a challenge to express on the layout. I don't know the mechanisms of your game but if you can separate the 4-card bet from the 5-card bet, or if it is a game strictly against a paytable it could work. If it is against a dealer's hand, that hierarchy is going to be a challenge.

I could see this working well for video poker

Quote: gordonm888

BTW, in 4 Card Poker, the player was dealt 5 cards to make the best 4 card poker hand, and the dealer was dealt 6 cards to make the best 4 card poker hand. So those have already been done.
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oops I misremembered then, I thought it was 4 and 5

Quote: zbrownson

I like the 4 card straight/flush concept, as it makes things interesting for a player since a 5 card straight/flush can be very difficult to achieve without more cards. However, the complexity of a 14 line hierarchy is going to be a challenging sell to dealers, potentially confusing for players, and a challenge to express on the layout. I don't know the mechanisms of your game but if you can separate the 4-card bet from the 5-card bet, or if it is a game strictly against a paytable it could work. If it is against a dealer's hand, that hierarchy is going to be a challenge.
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thanks! while this was originally intended for a physical table, the idea will be pitched to draft kings who work exclusively online. Online makes it much easier to present rules and payables. Even then, only the 4straight and 4flush are really added and once in a while you'll have to refer to the felt, so it's not much harder. The game will be against the dealer. I think separating the hands make it more confusing, but its hard to know what you mean when you are unsure of the mechanics (secrets!)

Quote: Hunterhill

I could see this working well for video poker
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you might think so at first, but in practice, you'd have to rip the standard paytable to shreds since you're using more than 5 cards almost every hand. 4straights and 4flushes will be far too common compared to the ~10% of hands with 5 cards only

When playing any poker (or similar) based game where, regardless of the number of cards involved, there's a few key design ideas (I'm sure there's more hiding out there somewhere!)
(i) For any given set of cards a simple-to-understand ranking into a (logical) list of hands (it could be poker hands, longest straight, biggest flush, highest total, gin rummy lowest total etc.)
(ii) A method to create some edge for the house - can be Ante/Raise, more cards for dealer, some wins don't full pay, dealer does not qualify, forced/manditory side bet. Additionally player can raise or multiple raise. Any combination of these features can work.

I'm sure there has been a poker ranking, like the one you mention, which adds 4-card near misses - I suspect the one I remember was any 4-card hand which fell between pair and 2-pairs. (Personally I feel this is simpler to understand and is what I would use if designing a game.)

I can see it does mean, if the dealer needed a pair, the dealer could qualify reasonably often and, without analysing it, the game might be less susceptible to cards seen in [other] player's hand before raising or folding (e.g. Q-high in 3CP, AK in 5-card poker). I'm also guessing if you knew one of the dealer upcards (either by design or flashing), the information wouldn't be so useful.

I don't know what happens if you have, say, both a pair and a 4-card hand. Probably not relevant but in lunar poker you could draw a 6th card and get paid on two different 5-card hands.

Best of luck with your new game.

Sous'em hands are sometimes a bit tricky. I would suggest adding a Paired 4-Flush to resolve the 4-Str and 4-Fl issue. You could also remove the 4-Str (bobtail), using the 4-Flush and the Paired 4-Flush. IIRC my math correctly, Paired 4-Flush beats a Triple. This is for 5-card stud.

History indicates 4-Flush beats a pair as an option (it just barely beats 2-Pair).

Quote: OrangePi5

Sous'em hands are sometimes a bit tricky. I would suggest adding a Paired 4-Flush to resolve the 4-Str and 4-Fl issue. You could also remove the 4-Str (bobtail), using the 4-Flush and the Paired 4-Flush. IIRC my math correctly, Paired 4-Flush beats a Triple. This is for 5-card stud.

History indicates 4-Flush beats a pair as an option (it just barely beats 2-Pair).
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Sous’em hands? I’m intrigued where that name comes from. A google advanced search gives no results for the term “sous’em”. Paired flush/straight seems interesting but occurs so infrequently it seems more confusing [for players] than what it’s worth IMO. Not sure what you mean by removing 4straights… does that mean 2-3-4-5-9 is now 9 high? And 2-3-4-5-3 counts?

Thanks for the reply!

search for brian alspach. then poker coputations sousem hands is #9

2345-9 is a 9-high, and 2345-3 is a pair under the modification.
EDIT:

5SF......40 (ROYAL = 4)
4oK.....624
4SF....2032 (ROYAL = 188)
F H....3744
5FL....4792
5ST....9960
P4F...33792 paired 4-flush
3oK...54912
4FL...75672 (3792 = 4ST)
2PR..123552
1PR.1063920
0pr.1225920

TOT.2598960 hands
regards