Was this a fold? (Phil Helmuth pushing and exposing cards past the line)

This seems to be a big story (it is popping up on my news feed quite a bit, and I don't really follow poker news).

From what I can tell, this is a game hosted combining professional poker players with famous twitch video game streamers for some reason 100/200. In any case, I can't claim to have watched most of it except for this hand.

Preflop one raise to 700 (by Phil), three players call. It seems like there is some questionable pre-flop play, but that is not really relevant, so fast forward to the deal:
Slime checks in the dark, two players make top pair on the flop (Slime and Phil), Mr. Beast bets 5k, Phil calls, Alan folds, and then Slime shoves. Phil proceeds to seem confused and says "I have no clue what to do here" and somebody in the background says, "Well you may as well show the table", Phil flips his cards up and pushes them forward over the line. So then Slime quickly flips his hand over (presumably thinking Phil already folded). And, then when Slime flipped his cards it seemed to be agreed by the table that he "folded up".



Video with no commentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkqam2bgUu0


My thoughts are if you push your cards over the trench and release your hand (the cards sit there unattended) they should be dead, regardless of face up or face down. Flipping your cards face up and pushing them over, and then acting like you never folded once the other player "folds and shows" his cards seems bizarre. It seems like Phil is getting a lot of benefit here, because the second cards are released over the line (when it is your decision, not after a call), they should be dead.

I could also be wrong on this, but I think Phil is the only professional player in this hand (if Slime if a pro player, I have never heard the name).

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/05/poker-phil-hellmuth-fold-angle-shooting-controversy
It seems that Phil is adamant that he did nothing wrong.

I think its a clear fold, if your hands lose contact with the cards over the trench, dead.

I just finished watching Doug Polk's video on this (the relevant part starts at 13:50):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pZ9ru__bbo&t=1111s


I am honestly Doug Polk is as forgiving on him as he is, it seems that he accepts that he wants to show his hand to another player and that is perfectly acceptable when he is still to act.

first off this was like the crack of poker streams and im hooked, no longer can watch smaller streams and will never look at any other poker stream the same.

second this POS knew what he was doing... he acted as if he was sliding the cards... and the way the camera was on him i thought he had initially folded too...

but DWAN just so happened to be a part of this accidentally....

he even seemed as if he had given up the way he was speaking...

ive lost all respect for phil not that i had much to begin with but this was the last straw when it came to his dumb ass antics and im glad these streamers had the balls to call him washed up

I'm not an expert on the fine points of poker rules, but at the 1:03 point you can see Phil pushing his cards over the line. Just going on feel, that is a fold to me, but I can't quote any rulebook to back that up. I voted it's a fold.

Was this a tournament or a cash game? There MAY be different rules.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Was this a tournament or a cash game? There MAY be different rules.
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More details please.
I would ask the dealer to rule, then I will call in the floor. My judgement: FOLD

I watched the video a few more times. It appears to be a cash game therefore the players can make their own rules as opposed to a tournament where TDA rules would apply.

With that said, a floor man or at least the dealer should have had better control of the game.

Too much talk. It's hard to tell who folded and who was all in.

I cant decide anything except the table talk should be limited during live hands.

Take note, even the commentator said he folded. I think he intended to fold, well perhaps not, would he fold that hand normally? I'm thinking not, but who knows. I think someone needs to look at other examples of his play and see what him tossing cards forward like that means and if it's ever not been a fold.

The dealer should have scooped them up asap. I would have called the floor had this happened in a normal game. In this case, I like the deal since Phil would probably get preferential treatment on a floor call.

However, I don't think it's technically a fold until it hits the muck, or you say fold.

Let's pretend Phill didn't see the other guy's cards and he tosses the cards forward and quickly grabs them back. (I have seen this many times, and have even done it myself.) I have yet to see that called a fold.

I think it's possible(not sure) that Phil intended to fold until he saw the guy's hand and then realized he had an opportunity since his hand was technically still alive. I don't know what to say about him allegedly passing his cards to Dwan.

All*** of what was said in this video makes sense to me^^^ (so far),

***: I only got to about the 18 minute mark, and I will watch the rest later.
^^^: A casual observer

The better question in all this..........Who's the brunette ???

Hellmuth prides himself and is known for making very tough (and often incorrect) folds. It looked like a fold to me. And his reaction of telling the other guy to take back his stack or just throw in $5k is the reaction of a guilty person, in my view.

Quote: AxelWolf

The better question in all this..........Who's the brunette ???
link to original post

the chess queen... she won 500K and barely plays poker she def had a coach though

Initial opinion: Not a fold.


FYI: I deal poker in a pub league in NJ. I'm known in the league as the Rules Guru.

While I have not had a chance to watch the video, I've seen the type of situation described often enough to give you a summary of the relevant rules.


First, I assume that this is a cash game. Tournaments tend to have stricter rules.

Second, some rules that rarely come into play (but are a big part of this hand) tend to be governed by 'House Rules'. I.E. They're not consistent from place to place.


Now, on to the 'Rules'.

The 'Line' is often meaningless. When placing a bet, the chips need to be placed forward of the cards, not necessarily forward of the line. (The line is actually there to give the maintenance person who changes the felt something to use to measure / center the felt on the table.)

When a player folds, the dealer is supposed to gather the cards into the muck making them impossible to retrieve.

Did Phil actually say "fold"? I'm guessing not.

Cards that are accidentally pushed into the muck so that they are unidentifiable are dead. Cards that are accidentally pushed near the muck, but are still identifiable, CAN be retrieved and remain live.

In cash games (but never in a tournament), when only two players are left in the hand, the player facing a decision can expose his cards in an effort to get a reaction from the other player. As such, the dealer was correct to not pull the cards into the muck.

Other than the when trying to get that reaction, experienced players know enough never to expose their hand until the showdown, and never put their card into the muck until the winner of the hand has been declared by the dealer. And even then make sure the dealer's decision is correct.

Note: There are cases where players have revived their hands, even AFTER saying 'fold'. That's another reason to not only wait for the decision, but also wait for folded hands to be mucked.

If Slime is playing at a level where he's in a game with Phil Hellmuth, Tom Dwan, etc., he should be experienced enough to have known better. He should have waited until Phil’s hand was in the muck or his chips were moved forward to make the call.


Bottom line, it may have been Phil's intent to fold. But it was also his option to play his cards once he realized he had the winning hand.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Initial opinion: Not a fold.


FYI: I deal poker in a pub league in NJ. I'm known in the league as the Rules Guru.

While I have not had a chance to watch the video, I've seen the type of situation described often enough to give you a summary of the relevant rules.


First, I assume that this is a cash game. Tournaments tend to have stricter rules.

Second, some rules that rarely come into play (but are a big part of this hand) tend to be governed by 'House Rules'. I.E. They're not consistent from place to place.


Now, on to the 'Rules'.

The 'Line' is often meaningless. When placing a bet, the chips need to be placed forward of the cards, not necessarily forward of the line. (The line is actually there to give the maintenance person who changes the felt something to use to measure / center the felt on the table.)

When a player folds, the dealer is supposed to gather the cards into the muck making them impossible to retrieve.

Did Phil actually say "fold"? I'm guessing not.

Cards that are accidentally pushed into the muck so that they are unidentifiable are dead. Cards that are accidentally pushed near the muck, but are still identifiable, CAN be retrieved and remain live.

In cash games (but never in a tournament), when only two players are left in the hand, the player facing a decision can expose his cards in an effort to get a reaction from the other player. As such, the dealer was correct to not pull the cards into the muck.

Other than the when trying to get that reaction, experienced players know enough never to expose their hand until the showdown, and never put their card into the muck until the winner of the hand has been declared by the dealer. And even then make sure the dealer's decision is correct.

Note: There are cases where players have revived their hands, even AFTER saying 'fold'. That's another reason to not only wait for the decision, but also wait for folded hands to be mucked.

If Slime is playing at a level where he's in a game with Phil Hellmuth, Tom Dwan, etc., he should be experienced enough to have known better. He should have waited until Phil’s hand was in the muck or his chips were moved forward to make the call.


Bottom line, it may have been Phil's intent to fold. But it was also his option to play his cards once he realized he had the winning hand.
link to original post

I appreciate your detailed response. I am not doubting your knowledge of the rules as both a dealer and a lawyer.

I always operate under the assumption that the line is the trench or bet line (or whatever different people call it), and that once pushed over chips are in play and cards are dead once contact with the chips or cards ends (assuming action is on you, or even if not in certain cases).

I agree that folding or mucking face up is never good (even more so if you are not 100% sure that the player acted), but this is a player that from what I have read has never played poker before (I think that was the whole premise of this show, that a handful of pro players and a handful of successful video game players with minimal knowledge of poker would play together, so the pro players should have a massive edge by design). It just seems like even if at this location his hand was not dead, and he did not intend to fold, he took advantage of a player who is not on his level and probably did not know the rules (and was probably showing to genuinely be nice). This is going slightly off topic, but this is one issue with inconsistent house rules.

I am not sure I think that stating "I fold" verbally is the definitive only way to fold and any other fold (or not fold) should be reversible, because virtually nobody states this, and this could be easily abused any time somebody bluff shows for fun.

I had no idea that the line was just invented for maintenance purposes that is interesting.

What are your thoughts on showing his hand to others for advice when you are at a final decision (last player to act, and everyone before you is all in)? Say for example, he clearly did not fold, but people at the table (as they did) said, "well show us what you have" in response to "what should I do", if he kept his cards in his hands (in a way that was clearly not a fold) and showed the table and let people chime in on what to do is this allowed? Because even if his intent was to not fold, this would have been his other intent, which is fishy at best, but some people do it (if for no other reason to see the reaction of the all in players). Trying to get a reaction from a player is part of the game (maybe questionable in some cases), but showing and conferring with other players who are not in the hand seems like it should never be allowed, especially if they proceed to state what they folded.

I thought I heard the dealer call it a fold when Phil took action. That prompted other person to flip cards. Did I mishear?

Quote: unJon

I thought I heard the dealer call it a fold when Phil took action. That prompted other person to flip cards. Did I mishear?
link to original post

That is a good observation it seems around 1:11 in the top video I hear that too now.

However, the dealer is a lady, and it sounds like a man saying this, so I would guess it was another player. The commentators (and whoever does the graphics) seemed to think he folded initially as well right after this.

link

The above link, should be the "complete stream of the event", and the relevant hand starts at around 1:46-1:47 (hour : minute).

Also, I voted "Not a Fold", but I was tossing up whether to vote "other^^^ " instead.

^^^: The main reason I was going pick "other" was because I think the "fold / not a fold" was not as important as "what he did afterwards*** ".

***: Even though he should have done something like this on the stream, in Phil's defense### he has given (or plans to give?) "slime_machine " - " $5,000 + 1/2 of the pot".

###: If the game was played under the exact same rules ("non-tournament rules") but all of his opponents were pro's, then I think he did "nothing wrong" (whether I like what he did or not, is besides the point).

----
Extra / Other Info:

From the small sample of videos I have seen so far of Phil, his "schtick" to me seem to be "that he plays a heel-like character" and / or "one of the most annoying players at the table" (no matter what level of player the opponents are).

Now that I’ve watched the videos, I stand by my original opinion of not a fold.

I’ll give them more detailed analysis tomorrow, when I’m at a keyboard.

As I mentioned, I stand by my 'not a fold' comment above, but for different reasons.

OK. Here's my longer analysis.

Ignore everything I said about exposing cards in an attempt to get a reaction. While what I said was accurate, it's not what was going on in this hand.

At about 1:05 Phil slides his cards with a pretty good amount of velocity, and let go of them. Under ordinary circumstances, that certainly looks like a fold, which is why the commentators said he folded. (Except the direction he sent them was odd as it wasn't towards the dealer or muck pile.)

Folding is just how it appears based on that camera angle. Later in the video we realize that he slid them to Tom Dwan so Tom can take a look and "sweat the action." Obviously, the dealer and other players knew that.

Note that this sort of thing is frowned upon. Yes, there IS a rule about "One person to a hand." While a second player might influence the action, most players, including Tom, would refrain from doing so.

Anyway, once Tom looks, other players can request that the cards be shown after the hand is complete. It's the "Show one, show all" rule. Therefore, since the only remaining action was whether Phil would call or fold, saying "you might as well turn them over now," is a reasonable comment from anyone at the table.

All while this is going on, Phil states that he doesn't know what to do, and he does look truly confused.

So Phil turns the cards over.

Some poker rooms have a rule that if you turn your cards over in that manner (i.e. in an attempt to get a reaction), your hand is dead. But that rule usually only applies to tournaments. And certainly the dealer would then take the cards.

Since the dealer made no attempt to take the cards, Slime was incorrect to assume the hand was over. If anything, he should have waited till the dealer was pushing the chips, etc.

At that point, whatever Phil offered (it wasn't clear enough to me) was very gracious of him. Again, in a tournament, a floor person would make a ruling. But in cash games, rules can be ignored if players agree. Often, deals when there's all-ins are not allowed because they could be construed as collusion and/or chip dumping.

FYI: The reason cash games have somewhat more relaxed rules is simple. Players can get up any time they want. Therefore, each hand is independent of the others. Not so in tournaments.

Poker is generally governed by Robert's Rules of Poker. ("Robert" is Bob Ciaffone, a poker authority and columnist for Card Player magazine.) The Tournament Directors' Association has their own set of rules to augment and fill in the cracks left in Robert's Rules. One key concept in the TDA rules is what experienced players refer to as "Rule One": In some situations. the tournament director / floor person is free to make a ruling that violates some established rules, so long as it's in the best interest of the game.

Clearly, what happened here is relatively unprecedented, and not easily covered in the more relaxed rules of cash games. So, if anything, Rule 1 could be invoked to allow the deal to proceed.

Quote: Gandler

I appreciate your detailed response. I am not doubting your knowledge of the rules as both a dealer and a lawyer.

I had no idea that the line was just invented for maintenance purposes that is interesting.

What are your thoughts on showing his hand to others for advice…
link to original post

Thanks. Are you inferring that I'M a lawyer? I'm not - much to my mother's dismay. My middle name is LAWrence. She wanted me to be a lawyer right from the start.

The line may have been invented for the purpose you assumed. And it is still used that way in some poker rooms.

And, as I mentioned, I do NOT think Phil was looking for advice when he showed Tom the hand. He just wanted to have Tom share in his misery of not knowing what to do.



A couple more points I meant to mention.

Before Slime turned his hand over, he tapped the table three times. That's a poker player's way of saying "nice hand" or something. While it clearly indicates that he thought the hand was over, and maybe the dealer should have recognized the tap and indicated that the hand was NOT over (but might not have had enough reaction time to do so), the tap is something only an experienced player would know about.

Yeah, Phil has a reputation as a sore loser. If this hand had played differently, like if Phil had gone all in and Slime called with the lesser hand only to win, you would have seen one of Phil's trademark verbal explosions.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: Gandler

I appreciate your detailed response. I am not doubting your knowledge of the rules as both a dealer and a lawyer.

I had no idea that the line was just invented for maintenance purposes that is interesting.

What are your thoughts on showing his hand to others for advice…
link to original post

Thanks. Are you inferring that I'M a lawyer? I'm not - much to my mother's dismay. My middle name is LAWrence. She wanted me to be a lawyer right from the start.

The line may have been invented for the purpose you assumed. And it is still used that way in some poker rooms.

And, as I mentioned, I do NOT think Phil was looking for advice when he showed Tom the hand. He just wanted to have Tom share in his misery of not knowing what to do.



A couple more points I meant to mention.

Before Slime turned his hand over, he tapped the table three times. That's a poker player's way of saying "nice hand" or something. While it clearly indicates that he thought the hand was over, and maybe the dealer should have recognized the tap and indicated that the hand was NOT over (but might not have had enough reaction time to do so), the tap is something only an experienced player would know about.

Yeah, Phil has a reputation as a sore loser. If this hand had played differently, like if Phil had gone all in and Slime called with the lesser hand only to win, you would have seen one of Phil's trademark verbal explosions.
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I thought you were a lawyer for some reason, I am sorry (I must have got you mixed up in my head, there are several lawyers here).

Even if we give him the total benefit of the doubt as far as intention and action, I don't think its right (even if legal) to show other players your cards while still in the hand. Even if he just wanted one specific player to sweat his action, by revealing his hand to the while table he opens up comments to everyone to say "Oh I folded two nines", etc.... in addition to seeing the all-ins reaction... And while such comments may be far-fetched at a professional table or even a normal recreational table, when the majority of the table is professional video game players and YouTube influencers (who presumably love to make comments) and who do not play poker occasionally (or at all before this), this is not far-fetched.

It just seems that even presuming his intentions in the best possible light, he was making the most of a situation that was questionable to begin with.

Quote: Gandler

Even if we give him the total benefit of the doubt as far as intention and action, I don't think its right (even if legal) to show other players your cards while still in the hand.

I think at most casinos in cash games it is widely accepted to show your hand to try and get a read on the player.

Quote: DRich

Quote: Gandler

Even if we give him the total benefit of the doubt as far as intention and action, I don't think its right (even if legal) to show other players your cards while still in the hand.

I think at most casinos in cash games it is widely accepted to show your hand to try and get a read on the player.
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I agree (I don't love it), but it is what it is.
In this scenario it was more the totality of the circumstance, flipping his cards (to his friend) in an odd manner, when it was assumed he folded the opponent flipped his cards and got talked into "folding up" and paying a penalty (it seemed like he did not really understand the deal that was being offered).