Was this a fold? (Phil Helmuth pushing and exposing cards past the line)

This seems to be a big story (it is popping up on my news feed quite a bit, and I don't really follow poker news).

From what I can tell, this is a game hosted combining professional poker players with famous twitch video game streamers for some reason 100/200. In any case, I can't claim to have watched most of it except for this hand.

Preflop one raise to 700 (by Phil), three players call. It seems like there is some questionable pre-flop play, but that is not really relevant, so fast forward to the deal:
Slime checks in the dark, two players make top pair on the flop (Slime and Phil), Mr. Beast bets 5k, Phil calls, Alan folds, and then Slime shoves. Phil proceeds to seem confused and says "I have no clue what to do here" and somebody in the background says, "Well you may as well show the table", Phil flips his cards up and pushes them forward over the line. So then Slime quickly flips his hand over (presumably thinking Phil already folded). And, then when Slime flipped his cards it seemed to be agreed by the table that he "folded up".



Video with no commentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkqam2bgUu0


My thoughts are if you push your cards over the trench and release your hand (the cards sit there unattended) they should be dead, regardless of face up or face down. Flipping your cards face up and pushing them over, and then acting like you never folded once the other player "folds and shows" his cards seems bizarre. It seems like Phil is getting a lot of benefit here, because the second cards are released over the line (when it is your decision, not after a call), they should be dead.

I could also be wrong on this, but I think Phil is the only professional player in this hand (if Slime if a pro player, I have never heard the name).

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/05/poker-phil-hellmuth-fold-angle-shooting-controversy
It seems that Phil is adamant that he did nothing wrong.

I think its a clear fold, if your hands lose contact with the cards over the trench, dead.

I just finished watching Doug Polk's video on this (the relevant part starts at 13:50):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pZ9ru__bbo&t=1111s


I am honestly Doug Polk is as forgiving on him as he is, it seems that he accepts that he wants to show his hand to another player and that is perfectly acceptable when he is still to act.

first off this was like the crack of poker streams and im hooked, no longer can watch smaller streams and will never look at any other poker stream the same.

second this POS knew what he was doing... he acted as if he was sliding the cards... and the way the camera was on him i thought he had initially folded too...

but DWAN just so happened to be a part of this accidentally....

he even seemed as if he had given up the way he was speaking...

ive lost all respect for phil not that i had much to begin with but this was the last straw when it came to his dumb ass antics and im glad these streamers had the balls to call him washed up

I'm not an expert on the fine points of poker rules, but at the 1:03 point you can see Phil pushing his cards over the line. Just going on feel, that is a fold to me, but I can't quote any rulebook to back that up. I voted it's a fold.

Was this a tournament or a cash game? There MAY be different rules.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Was this a tournament or a cash game? There MAY be different rules.
link to original post

More details please.
I would ask the dealer to rule, then I will call in the floor. My judgement: FOLD

I watched the video a few more times. It appears to be a cash game therefore the players can make their own rules as opposed to a tournament where TDA rules would apply.

With that said, a floor man or at least the dealer should have had better control of the game.

Too much talk. It's hard to tell who folded and who was all in.

I cant decide anything except the table talk should be limited during live hands.

Take note, even the commentator said he folded. I think he intended to fold, well perhaps not, would he fold that hand normally? I'm thinking not, but who knows. I think someone needs to look at other examples of his play and see what him tossing cards forward like that means and if it's ever not been a fold.

The dealer should have scooped them up asap. I would have called the floor had this happened in a normal game. In this case, I like the deal since Phil would probably get preferential treatment on a floor call.

However, I don't think it's technically a fold until it hits the muck, or you say fold.

Let's pretend Phill didn't see the other guy's cards and he tosses the cards forward and quickly grabs them back. (I have seen this many times, and have even done it myself.) I have yet to see that called a fold.

I think it's possible(not sure) that Phil intended to fold until he saw the guy's hand and then realized he had an opportunity since his hand was technically still alive. I don't know what to say about him allegedly passing his cards to Dwan.

All*** of what was said in this video makes sense to me^^^ (so far),

***: I only got to about the 18 minute mark, and I will watch the rest later.
^^^: A casual observer

The better question in all this..........Who's the brunette ???

Hellmuth prides himself and is known for making very tough (and often incorrect) folds. It looked like a fold to me. And his reaction of telling the other guy to take back his stack or just throw in $5k is the reaction of a guilty person, in my view.