Asia Poker

After playing Pai Gow tiles and then Pai gow poker I was up a little and felt I would donate some money back to the casino at Asia Poker, a Pai Gow variant. You get 7 cards, and like Pai Gow, make separate hands to compete with the dealer. You make a hhigh hand (4 cards), amiddle hand (2 cards) and a low hjand (1 card).
It is way more complicated than regular Pai Gow, as the complexities of maximizing 3 hands is far greater than the binary thoughts of pai gow. You win if 2 or 3 of your hands beat the dealer, you lose if 2 or 3 of your hands lose to the dealer. There is no commission, but the house wins on copy hands. There seem to be far less copy hands than one would expect. An example of the complexity would be the following-- A A K 8 6 4 3 is played as follows A 8 4 3 A 6 K. It is far stronger way to play than keeping the aces together in the high hand. When to keep flushes or straights together or split them is also more complicated, and I believe that house ways are weak enough to take advantage of. The house ways focus on 'pushing' the highest cards to the low hand, if possible, at the expense of the higher hands. Of course there are times (most) where this makes perfect sense, but I saw one particular example where the dealer had to play a Q 9 in the middle hand instead of a Q 8 at the expense of a straght in her high hand. Anyway, at Paris yesterday, I sat down and started playing $20 Asia Poker. The dealer would often misset her hand, and of course, when it would affect me negatively I would just point it out, and if positevly I would remain mum. Even the sub dealers, who were better than the main one, were weak. I made 400 in slightly less than 3 hours. I returned to the Rio, and though the dealers were far better, there were enough 'corrections' I could make that I believe turned the game into a positive EV game. I played for a few more hours ($25 table) and left up 300 more. Anyway, having read the Wiz's take on Pai Gow Poker and Pai Gow tiles, I think that Mr. Wiz would LOVE figuring out the nuances of Asia Poker. I may sell an "Asia Poker Investment Strategy"....... Ok, I couldn't resist.

I love this game too and would like more info on how to play. Barona in San Diego just opened their tables about a month ago. Now even with two tables you have to fight to get on one. They added the Pai-Gow progressive to it also. Most people play the insurance bet which pays for a regular 7 card Pai-gow hand. Ie no 5 card straight or flush or a pair or better. This makes it possible to win both if you have a 4 card flush with and ace and king. I'm going to Vegas next week and was wondering who has it.

I think I've seen it as Venetian and/or Palazzo.

Quote: RS

I think I've seen it as Venetian and/or Palazzo.

Yes, I commented the other day that Venetian got rid of their Pai Gow tiles table. Replaced it with at least one Asia Poker table. I'm pretty sure that I also saw Asia Poker at Paris and Harrah's.

I did find it on the Venetian web site. I don't like "Ceasar's" properties so i will try there first. Last time i was at Harrah's they had taken it out.

??

This is not a new game.

It was invented by a Borgata floorman. It's been around a while.

The house edge is ridiculously high and it's a terrible game.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/asia-poker/

I have been doing pretty well at Barona. They have a box that tells the dealer the house way but it gets confused with the Joker. they have to set it by the box even if it doesn't follow the house way rules. I rarely split my kings or aces when i have two pair since it weakens by 4 card hand too much. I know harrah's has had it for a long time but a regular at Barona asked for it and now it is getting more popular than Pai-gow.

Quote: sodawater

The house edge is ridiculously high and it's a terrible game.

4.82% per WoO, that is pretty bad for a main game HE with a more sophisticated strategic decision process. I wonder how bad the average player's mistakes make the HE (e.g. I don't think players would naturally split high pairs)?

Its at Gold Coast and Paris from my last trip. I find the house edge can be lessened substantially with weak dealers, which are pretty common. I have played many times where I am sure it was positive EV.

Quote: SOOPOO

Its at Gold Coast and Paris from my last trip. I find the house edge can be lessened substantially with weak dealers, which are pretty common. I have played many times where I am sure it was positive EV.

Bally/SHFL bought the distribution rights this last year, and they are aggressively placing tables. I don't know what the sidebet is they're selling, but IMO the sidebet Paris had was very good. I think you're going to see it in a lot of houses to start, but dealer errors might make it crest this year and then get uninstalled most places. It's a VERY hard game to play correctly. I'm sure I still make mistakes. But I love it. FWIW, I ended up slightly negative overall in my CET play for all of last year; all games positive for me and at all houses, except a gross loss learning this game at Paris made me net down for the year. So proceed with caution; tuition is very expensive.

As far as strategy is concerned; when you have a choice, I suggest you make the 1 card and 2 card hands as strong as possible even at the expense of the back hand being weak. Do whatever you can to put a pair in the middle. There are a lot of times when it's wise to split Aces, so you have a small pair in the back, Ax and A on the other two hands, especially if you happen to know the other players have most of the other aces. It's been several months since I played, so I'm trying to remember where the holes are in the House Way, but there are some you can exploit, as you already know.

At Paris (which has been dealing this game for close to 10 years), the midshift dealers (8pm-4am) are extremely strong on House Way and setting hands correctly for the most part (there was one new to it that wasn't). Day shift is absolutely weak and exploitable last I saw. Also frustratingly slow.

My strategy is similar. if i have an high flush that is the only time i really don't worry about both the 1 and 2 card hand. At barona the A234 straight is the smallest so i really hate playing that straight unless i really don't have a choice or have a pair in the mid. At barona they have to play the straight or flush if it doesn't have three high cards so i like the 9 10 J Q straight since they will usually not have anything on top. i think i will try the Paris since i want to go to the crepe place anyway.

Despite the HE, I'm really intrigued by this game.

(I do wish a tie on the low hand resulted in a push so as to to lower the HE but, I suppose, a casino would argue that it's PGPish without commission so pound sand.)

Anyways, I'm new to it and am having trouble understanding the rankings of the high hand. WoO says...

Quote:

The poker rankings in the four-card hand are the same as in conventional poker, except there are no full houses. One reader has disputed this rule, so this needs to be verified.

Okay, but when I search the web I find one site saying a straight/royal flush is high (conventional) while another site says quads is tops (four-card). To further confuse me, the place I'm playing at for free has me beating a dealer flush with a straight on the high hand (like three card). Here's a screen shot of it happening...


Que? Meanwhile I'm assuming that the Bonus Bet (which I don't play but, here, the same as Woo Pay Table A) could either use five or seven cards depending on what you have.

Can any Asia Poker players here straighten me out?

Everywhere I play the four card hand ranks the same as poker except the 1234 straight which is the second highest like Pai gow when the joker is not wild. The side bet is using all seven cards for the best possible 5 card or better hand. One of Barona side bets is for a Pai gow hand (no pair ace high or lower). This pays even if you have a four card straight or flush.

Quote: Gialmere

Despite the HE, I'm really intrigued by this game.

(I do wish a tie on the low hand resulted in a push so as to to lower the HE but, I suppose, a casino would argue that it's PGPish without commission so pound sand.)

Anyways, I'm new to it and am having trouble understanding the rankings of the high hand. WoO says...

Okay, but when I search the web I find one site saying a straight/royal flush is high (conventional) while another site says quads is tops (four-card). To further confuse me, the place I'm playing at for free has me beating a dealer flush with a straight on the high hand (like three card). Here's a screen shot of it happening...


Que? Meanwhile I'm assuming that the Bonus Bet (which I don't play but, here, the same as Woo Pay Table A) could either use five or seven cards depending on what you have.

Can any Asia Poker players here straighten me out?

These are the rules and hand rankings of Fortune Asia Poker, as distributed by SGI:

Overview
Fortune Asia Poker features head-to-head play against the dealer and two optional bonus bets.
The game is played with a 53-card deck that includes a semi-wild joker. The joker can be used as
an ace, or to complete a straight flush, straight or flush.
Players receive seven cards to make three poker hands:
1. A four-card high hand;
2. A two-card mid hand that must be equal to or lesser than the four card hand; and
3. A one-card low hand that must be equal to or lesser than the two card hand.
The dealer also receives seven cards and arranges them into three hands, according to a house
way. The dealer will compare his high hand against the player’s high hand, his mid hand against
the player’s mid hand and his low hand against the player’s low hand.
The house wins ties.
Players win their main bet if they win two or three of the matchups against the dealer. If they
lose two or more of the matchups, their main bet loses.

Ranking of Hands

Four card (high) hand:
Four Aces
Straight flush (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Four of a Kind
Flush
Straight (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Three of a kind
Two Pair
Pair
High card

Two card (mid) hand: Pair
High card

One card (low) hand: High card

(Excerpt of the pdf linked below)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/activities/GameRules/game-rules/60_fortune-asia-poker.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjf4PeXg_TgAhUBMt8KHcZiDlQQFjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw108gG9qD8-5UybcgwPZ3Zl

Quote: beachbumbabs

Four card (high) hand:
Four Aces
Straight flush (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Four of a Kind
Flush
Straight (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Three of a kind
Two Pair
Pair
High card

Two card (mid) hand: Pair
High card

One card (low) hand: High card

(Excerpt of the pdf linked below)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/activities/GameRules/game-rules/60_fortune-asia-poker.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjf4PeXg_TgAhUBMt8KHcZiDlQQFjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw108gG9qD8-5UybcgwPZ3Zl

Is it ever correct to set four Aces as the top hand??

Quote: unJon

Quote: beachbumbabs

Four card (high) hand:
Four Aces
Straight flush (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Four of a Kind
Flush
Straight (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Three of a kind
Two Pair
Pair
High card

Two card (mid) hand: Pair
High card

One card (low) hand: High card

(Excerpt of the pdf linked below)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/activities/GameRules/game-rules/60_fortune-asia-poker.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjf4PeXg_TgAhUBMt8KHcZiDlQQFjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw108gG9qD8-5UybcgwPZ3Zl

Is it ever correct to set four Aces as the top hand??

If you have 5 aces and a pair, you can set the 4 aces and have a sure win. Pair in the middle A up top.

There are probably others, but you asked "ever". Not often. I think it's much more likely you break them up somehow as best strategy on nearly all other hands.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: unJon

Quote: beachbumbabs

Four card (high) hand:
Four Aces
Straight flush (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Four of a Kind
Flush
Straight (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Three of a kind
Two Pair
Pair
High card

Two card (mid) hand: Pair
High card

One card (low) hand: High card

(Excerpt of the pdf linked below)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/activities/GameRules/game-rules/60_fortune-asia-poker.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjf4PeXg_TgAhUBMt8KHcZiDlQQFjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw108gG9qD8-5UybcgwPZ3Zl

Is it ever correct to set four Aces as the top hand??

If you have 5 aces and a pair, you can set the 4 aces and have a sure win. Pair in the middle A up top.

There are probably others, but you asked "ever". Not often. I think it's much more likely you break them up somehow as best strategy on nearly all other hands.

Forgot about the joker. Thanks!

Also four aces and three kings would play the aces up top, I suppose.

Quote: unJon

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: unJon

Quote: beachbumbabs

Four card (high) hand:
Four Aces
Straight flush (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Four of a Kind
Flush
Straight (AKQJ is highest, A234 is second-highest)
Three of a kind
Two Pair
Pair
High card

Two card (mid) hand: Pair
High card

One card (low) hand: High card

(Excerpt of the pdf linked below)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/activities/GameRules/game-rules/60_fortune-asia-poker.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjf4PeXg_TgAhUBMt8KHcZiDlQQFjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw108gG9qD8-5UybcgwPZ3Zl

Is it ever correct to set four Aces as the top hand??

If you have 5 aces and a pair, you can set the 4 aces and have a sure win. Pair in the middle A up top.

There are probably others, but you asked "ever". Not often. I think it's much more likely you break them up somehow as best strategy on nearly all other hands.

Forgot about the joker. Thanks!

Also four aces and three kings would play the aces up top, I suppose.

I would play that aaak kk a and hope the dealer couldn't find the last ace legal to go up top. Kk can't be beat. Top 3oak is medium strong.

Edit. No, you're right. High and middle would be unbeatable with aaaa in the back, so that's correct.
.

Interesting that 4 aces is the highest. Unless I had another pair I would split them up.

I see a logical problem (or typo error) with the WOO Site write-up of the House Way for Asia Poker. I present the WOO text below and I have bolded the sentence I am struggling with:

**************
"Three Pairs

If one of the pairs is aces or kings, and the singleton is low or medium, then play a card from the high pair in the low, the other ace or king and the singleton in the medium hand, and the other two pair in the high hand.

Otherwise, if the singleton is low or medium, then play a card from the highest pair in the low hand, the medium pair in the medium hand, and rest in the high hand.

Otherwise (with no ace/king pair and a high singleton), play the singleton in the low hand, the highest pair in the medium hand, and the other two pair in the high hand."
***************
My problem:
Given a three pair hand, if you play a card from the highest pair in the low hand and play the medium pair in the medium hand, then the high hand would contain only the low pair -and thus be lower than the medium hand, which is a breach of the rules. Maybe it should say that the low pair goes in the medium hand?

Sorry to be a nit-picker, but the Asia House Way is complex enough even when its perfectly described.

I LOVE Asia Poker! To me there is more thinking when setting the hand than any other decision in the casino. I have found weak dealers that were easily exploitable, once playing with an +EV I'm sure exceeded $100 an hour playing $25 a hand. I keep a deck of cards nearby and deal myself hand after hand to keep my skills up.

Quote: SOOPOO

I LOVE Asia Poker! To me there is more thinking when setting the hand than any other decision in the casino.

Yeah, I agree. Setting an Asian Poker hand is the funnest and most fascinating gambling decision I've come across. I haven't worked my way up to full-blown Pai Gow yet but, from what I've seen, the challenge seems to be in the memorizing of tile combination values. Once you have that down pat, actual play decisions should be easy. (Pai Gow players feel free to contradict me.)

Reading BBB's post, I think the Fortune version of the game is the source for all the confusion as it splits the baby in half by making four aces the highest ranked hand followed by straight flushes and then back to the rest of the 4oaks. The standard version doesn't do that although I have no idea who owns the rights to the game and thus what version is now considered "official".

Also, I didn't know that hands could have an equal value to adjacent hands. That's a neat little wrinkle. If you got dealt three aces and four low to medium singletons, would you separate the bullets into three ace-high hands? I'd consider it.