Texas Holden heads up poker no rake

I want to talk about this game.
2+2 is probably a better option but im.not a forum slut and I really only visit this forum(tempted to visit. Alan forum, because I hear he called us ALL nickel and dime players as an attempted insult, but backed off that when members of his forum claimed they played the lower denominations , however we all know what he was getting at.).

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Is anyon5.playing this? I have been doing good as.of late and over all. I have had some disappnting session's however over all im up.

I feel like a system player as short sessions seems to fair far better than long sessions as if it actually is learning from your play. They claim it doesn't. It had been getting far better hands but I'm still out playing it.

I'm ultra aggressive and it's been working.

There has to be a way to beat this game.

No, it is not allowed to "learn" based on Nevada Gaming regulations. I think this was discussed on this site a few years ago. I believe the game came out in Nevada about four years ago. I don't know that it can be beat but it can definitely be played at 0% hold if the players plays perfect strategy.

The newer Hold'em game is the six handed Hold'em slot that is at Harrah's now. That is the one I would try to exploit because it is still very new.

I'm guessing the game is not beatable simply because it is still installed. If it were beatable for any significant edge there would be poker pros sitting at it 24/7 until it got taken out.

Heads-up LHE is a very high variance game so unless you are ahead over an extended period I don't think you can place much faith in your results. I think you are right in that you have to be ultra-aggressive. That is how high-stakes LHE specialists play and the machine is definitely crazy aggressive.

Obviously it is driven by software and it is probably not playing a 100% optimal strategy since it can't adjust to you per regulation as mentioned by DRich. Given that, if you were able to figure out its strategy over an extended period of observation you might be able to devise a better strategy, at least for a computer program. Could a human execute this theoretical strategy?

Of course I may just have sour grapes because the last time I tried one of these I put in $100 to a 5/10 machine. I hit two good hands in a row and was up to $400. Four hands later I was busted.

Quote: jml24

I'm guessing the game is not beatable simply because it is still installed. If it were beatable for any significant edge there would be poker pros sitting at it 24/7 until it got taken out.

Heads-up LHE is a very high variance game so unless you are ahead over an extended period I don't think you can place much faith in your results. I think you are right in that you have to be ultra-aggressive. That is how high-stakes LHE specialists play and the machine is definitely crazy aggressive.

Obviously it is driven by software and it is probably not playing a 100% optimal strategy since it can't adjust to you per regulation as mentioned by DRich. Given that, if you were able to figure out its strategy over an extended period of observation you might be able to devise a better strategy, at least for a computer program. Could a human execute this theoretical strategy?

Of course I may just have sour grapes because the last time I tried one of these I put in $100 to a 5/10 machine. I hit two good hands in a row and was up to $400. Four hands later I was busted.

The first part is not true. There are plenty of machines that are beatable in some way or not that take some time to be discovered. In fact, the first LHE bot was played by tons of people and crushed until they added a software update that made it a lot tougher.

Optimal play in the context of poker means game theory optimal, which relies on a decision tree that balances decisions not in a way to make the most money, but to be unexploitable by any other strategy.

Also, the maximum winnings/losses are 12 BB per hand, so you would have to nearly cap every street to lose $400 in 4 hands. I have never in 2M hands of LHE seen someone lose 40 BB in 4 hands, or anywhere close to that.

Quote: AxelWolf

I want to talk about this game.

I feel like a system player as short sessions seems to fair far better than long sessions as if it actually is learning from your play. They claim it doesn't. It had been getting far better hands but I'm still out playing it.

I'm ultra aggressive and it's been working.

There has to be a way to beat this game.

I have the same experience as you. I have consistently beat these machines since moving to Vegas. However, I find it very stressful to do so. Not sure why. The short session per machine is my mantra. PM me and we'll meet up to play sometime. I would like to get to the bottom of these machine's stories as well.
Supposed to be based on Cephius and unbeatable but I'm not sure.

I've played it a couple of times for very short sessions and come out ahead. I don't think I, personally, could beat it straight up long term.

I think I read somewhere that the tip top limit hold em HU players can beat the game for small amounts.

Of course, if you are getting good points, that can change things.

I tried the one at Harrahs too. I don't know much about it, but the rake is really high as I remember.

Theoretically, having perfect knowledge of how the computer played would allow you to exploit it. After all, one of the key components of poker strategy is adapting to how your opponent plays. If the computer doesn't "learn" (it doesn't), that means that there exists a (very lengthy) readout of how the computer would play in any given situation. If one were to have that, one could tailor his play to counter the computer's play and have an edge.

In other words, if the computer has 9h3c in the big blind, and the player calls, the computer would likely play that hand the same every time. One could eventually compile the exact results.

That said, it's possible (perhaps likely) that a level of randomization exists -- thus, the computer, rather than being set to "raise" or "check" in any given instance, might be set to "raise 60% and check 40%" in that instance. That would make pinpointing its strategy pretty damned tough. Still, with enough data -- say, a record of 300 times the computer held 9h3c in the big blind with the player calling -- would allow you to figure out what percentages the computer was using.

Of course, that would mean players putting untold hours into playing this game, documenting every action in every hand (in full), and then doing a lot of complex number crunching to come up with a complementary strategy. Then, the programmers could quite easily tweak their program, come out with a NEW EDITION, phase out the old machines, and you'd have to start that work all over again.

So yes, theoretically there's likely a way to play against this computer with an advantage. That said, it would take countless man-hours to put together a strategy, and it would take relatively little time to create a new set of values that would render your work obsolete.

The way computers play poker at present is, they can beat most players, but not the best players. Perhaps one should take that as a lesson -- if you have the means to beat the computer, you can probably also beat most players, and doing so would be far easier and far more lucrative.

Quote: tongni

Optimal play in the context of poker means game theory optimal, which relies on a decision tree that balances decisions not in a way to make the most money, but to be unexploitable by any other strategy.

I understand that, but do you have reason to believe the machine is using perfect game theory optimal strategy?

Quote: tongni

Also, the maximum winnings/losses are 12 BB per hand, so you would have to nearly cap every street to lose $400 in 4 hands. I have never in 2M hands of LHE seen someone lose 40 BB in 4 hands, or anywhere close to that.

Well my memory may not be perfect, but I also neglected to mention that there was some type of bonus side bet enabled by default on the machine. Since I just started playing this machine and I am an idiot sometimes I was playing the bonus side bet by mistake. I don't remember exactly how the side bet works but it pays multiples for hitting big hands. I'm assuming it is a sucker bet and nobody should ever play it. The side bet is how I got up to $400 quickly in the first place. I was playing it trying to figure out why the machine said 5/10 but I was actually betting twice as much.

Quote: Elastoid

The way computers play poker at present is, they can beat most players, but not the best players. Perhaps one should take that as a lesson -- if you have the means to beat the computer, you can probably also beat most players, and doing so would be far easier and far more lucrative.

There are a lot of idiot poker players out there, but there aren't too many that are willing and able to play HU LHE at any time of the day or night with no rake. If anyone could beat this machine for a significant edge it would be a great opportunity. The fact that they are willing to offer this game with no rake means they are VERY confident in the strategy, although there is also a bonus bet available which I assume is very -EV.

Perhaps I'm winning because I got 18 AK in a row ;)
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Im under no impression I'm going to sit around and get rich off them. I know I don't have enough hands in to determine anything. I just think there's a chance to get some value under the right cecunstances and I enjoy playing them.

Is this game pure math? Can it be pure math when there is bluffing involved? If you are calling more of the machines bluffs accurately but the machine folds to often to your bluffs, you should do well. (I feel it's very aggressive with bad hands)
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Question: How is it that this machine got approved in the first place? I'm under the impression it uses a computer to calculate the odds and to determine how to play a hand. Shouldn't I be allowed to do the same?
Or are all senarios preprogramed?

Sounds like a legitimate defence argument if you get busted for using a calculator.
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The machines seem to have the ability to mess with your head.

Max I get that semi stressful feeling as well.
Well, it's not necessarily stressful but I can't really describe it any other way, perhaps a tense feeling but in a good way. Now that im thinking, I think it's adrenaline. When I get back to Vegas we should get together and play some. Perhaps compare how you would play the hand VS how I would. Not sure if that's practical since I usually blaze though hands.
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It's hard to find a live Heads up game.
Even then it'should nothing like playing a machine
Good players can pick up tells and tendencies.
As mentioned before there's a fee/rake.

0 comps/mail etc etc.

I'm skeptical playing heads up online
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Unfortunately the machine are somewhat rare.

If anyone knows where they have these machines where you can accumulate points (and they give you mail, comps, offers etc ) feel free to PM me.

Quote: Rigondeaux

I tried the one at Harrahs too. I don't know much about it, but the rake is really high as I remember.

Yes, the rake is huge but it is capped and once it is capped the computer opponents are just calling stations. It is not unusual to win a pot where 3 or 4 computer opponents call you all the way. I doubt it is beatable but since it is still pretty new there may be an opportunity.

Quote: DRich

Yes, the rake is huge but it is capped and once it is capped the computer opponents are just calling stations. It is not unusual to win a pot where 3 or 4 computer opponents call you all the way. I doubt it is beatable but since it is still pretty new there may be an opportunity.

Do you earn points?

Quote: AxelWolf

Do you earn points?

Yes, it was giving points.

So its not heads up? How many comp hands are you facing pre flop?

Quote: rainman

So its not heads up? How many comp hands are you facing pre flop?

Five.

Another interesting thing about this game is the opponents always show cards when folding. When you fold you do not have to wait for the other players to play out. There is a button that ends the game immediately and shows you the results of how the computer played it out.

You guys are discussing if these machines could be beaten by bluffing or marking patterns.

I remember in another thread there is a discussion about this HU FL hold'em game and they said some scientist / mathematician have it solved, meaning that they have proved that they have the perfect strategy for every situation base on pot odds (or whatever) and that the machine cannot be beaten, including bluffs. If 2 of these machine are to face each other then the final result will only depends on the draw of the cards.

I remember this because frankly I don't believe / understand why and how poker game could be solved. But the guys in the thread seems to know their argument and confidently said so.

Heads up limit holdem has been solved according to the experts. The new game is six handed which I don't think will be solved any time soon.

Quote: DRich

Heads up limit holdem has been solved according to the experts. The new game is six handed which I don't think will be solved any time soon.

I'm a bit confused about this game. Do you play vs. 5 computer opponents all the time, or can some of them be live players? Paying a rake to play 5 excellent computer players doesn't seem like a great deal. Especially since the HU games don't take a rake. Is this game limit or no-limit?

Quote: jml24

I'm a bit confused about this game. Do you play vs. 5 computer opponents all the time, or can some of them be live players? Paying a rake to play 5 excellent computer players doesn't seem like a great deal. Especially since the HU games don't take a rake. Is this game limit or no-limit?

Limit Hold'em against 5 computer opponents that play very bad.

Quote: DRich

Heads up limit holdem has been solved according to the experts. The new game is six handed which I don't think will be solved any time soon.

Limit Holdem is all about the math. Thats why Heads up LH is easiest to be solved and played "perfect" by computer. For NL however things are quite different.