UNbeatable player. Limit Hold 'em.

The absolutely unbeatable limit hold 'em player is the best in the world.

Robot

Yeah, I saw this on 2+2. That's cool in the sense that I could never make a bot like that, but I'm kind of unimpressed on the other hand because I'd have thought this would have been done a while ago. Plus limit hold em isn't nearly as complex as most forms of poker and is incredibly boring (seriously, what do people get out of playing LHE?)

Now let's just hope nobody can ever make a GTO bot for NLHE, and I'll be fine.

My question is how well does it play in a ring game?

Brute force won't work as well.

article on this in the wall street journal today too

Quote: FleaStiff

The absolutely unbeatable limit hold 'em player is the best in the world.

Robot

Hmmm, well my educated estimate is the bot can be good, but never the best. When I played at a professional level through college and partly after, I actually played many bots. People would put their bots on the heads up sit-n-go's and just let them fly all day. The bots were actually pretty good, but the flaw was they made decisions based on value and pot odds (like a normal player). However these bots were very easy to recognize with their immediate quick play and their flawless betting/calling patterns.

Whenever I figured out I was playing against a bot (which happened often) I would simply over bet whenever I wanted to take a pot down. If the bot didn't have the made hand, it would only call if the pot odds indicated to do so. So by over betting I took the pot odds calculation out, and thus the bot would almost always fold when I wanted it to. Really, it's the same type of play aggressive players already used then, and today. The whole reason they're saying this is the best in the world is probably because in limit poker you're ALWAYS getting pot odds =P. So you couldn't raise the bot out of the hand.

I'd be interested in playing said bot =), if nothing else for a good test/laugh!

Edit.

Quote: Romes

Quote: FleaStiff

The absolutely unbeatable limit hold 'em player is the best in the world.

Robot

Hmmm, well my educated estimate is the bot can be good, but never the best. When I played at a professional level through college and partly after, I actually played many bots. People would put their bots on the heads up sit-n-go's and just let them fly all day. The bots were actually pretty good, but the flaw was they made decisions based on value and pot odds (like a normal player). However these bots were very easy to recognize with their immediate quick play and their flawless betting/calling patterns.

Whenever I figured out I was playing against a bot (which happened often) I would simply over bet whenever I wanted to take a pot down. If the bot didn't have the made hand, it would only call if the pot odds indicated to do so. So by over betting I took the pot odds calculation out, and thus the bot would almost always fold when I wanted it to. Really, it's the same type of play aggressive players already used then, and today. The whole reason they're saying this is the best in the world is probably because in limit poker you're ALWAYS getting pot odds =P. So you couldn't raise the bot out of the hand.

I'd be interested in playing said bot =), if nothing else for a good test/laugh!

???? Did I miss something

Ummm..... you can come to Vegas and play such a bot heads up for real money all day long WITH NO RAKE. Its called Heads Up Limit Hold'em

Romes:"it's the same type of play aggressive players already used then, and today" Then You'll be rich, especially since there's no rake

They have had them for quite a few years now.

You can find a bank of them (usually empty) outside the Venetian poker room and various other locations. They have/had some in high limit denominations as well.
They probably have them in other states as well.

Good luck, I highly doubt you could beat it after 100hrs of play.

It's a humbling experience even for the best poker players.

If it's limit then I would concede that it would be difficult to beat the bot and it would come down to the luck of the cards (if the game is truly random). However, if it's no limit, and a truly fair, random game, then I'm willing to say I would beat "most" bots because like I said they use pot odds calculations which as a player you can know what to bet to not give them the correct calling odds.

As a programmer at the end of the day I know these bots take all the inputs (hand, pot size, action) and calculate how likely you are to bluff, etc, based off your past actions (which you can 'beat' by changing up your play), and it runs this info through a ton if "IF/ELSE" statements until it finds the right one that meets it's current conditions. All you have to do as a player, when you know you're playing a bot, is learn it's conditions, then feed it the correct inputs to hit the fold condition (whether that be changing pot odds, action, etc). In no limit, I still retain they are quite beatable. I almost always beat the bots I played heads up once learning they were bots (the one caveat where you'd lose is where you go to bet them out of a pot with incorrect calling odds but they happen to have some massive hand). Well, that or in a truly random and fair game they would just get "lucky" and hit the nuts nearly every hand.

Quote: Romes

If it's limit then I would concede that it would be difficult to beat the bot and it would come down to the luck of the cards (if the game is truly random). However, if it's no limit, and a truly fair, random game, then I'm willing to say I would beat "most" bots because like I said they use pot odds calculations which as a player you can know what to bet to not give them the correct calling odds.

As a programmer at the end of the day I know these bots take all the inputs (hand, pot size, action) and calculate how likely you are to bluff, etc, based off your past actions (which you can 'beat' by changing up your play), and it runs this info through a ton if "IF/ELSE" statements until it finds the right one that meets it's current conditions. All you have to do as a player, when you know you're playing a bot, is learn it's conditions, then feed it the correct inputs to hit the fold condition (whether that be changing pot odds, action, etc). In no limit, I still retain they are quite beatable. I almost always beat the bots I played heads up once learning they were bots (the one caveat where you'd lose is where you go to bet them out of a pot with incorrect calling odds but they happen to have some massive hand). Well, that or in a truly random and fair game they would just get "lucky" and hit the nuts nearly every hand.

That's what I missed then. I missed the fact you were playing no limit bots. I had no clue NL bots played online for real money.





And yes the machines in the casino are limit, they are not allowed to base play off your past actions. I under stand how a bot online would use player tracking data.

So this leads me to a question for you. Are there any good limit bots for sale that can beat the low stakes limit ring games constantly? I have heard rumors but never heard any solid evidence.

Or is it only heads up bots?

same question for a heads up limit bot. also will a bot detect another bot? Obviously 2 bots would eventually lose to the rake even if one was inferior.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's what I missed then. I missed the fact you were playing no limit bots. I had no clue NL bots played online for real money.

And yes the machines in the casino are limit, they are not allowed to base play off your past actions. I under stand how a bot online would use player tracking data.

So this leads me to a question for you. Are there any good limit bots for sale that can beat the low stakes limit ring games constantly? I have heard rumors but never heard any solid evidence.

Or is it only heads up bots?

same question for a heads up limit bot. also will a bot detect another bot? Obviously 2 bots would eventually lose to the rake even if one was inferior.

Eh, I'm hesitant to answer this, but I will, and I will share why...

Answer
If there are no limit bots online, I'm sure there's limit bots online. They wouldn't exactly "clean up" as you can play perfect and still lose the game due to the luck of the cards. They play what I call "ABC" poker. This will do 'okay' against the majority of donkeys, but it still wouldn't (in my opinion) be some crazy edge over a skilled player as they'll mostly play the same and the luck of the cards/player aggression would (in my opinion) make the player more likely to win. In poker you have to change and adjust your strategy depending on the type of player you're going up against. You'd have to have some very fancy bot to be able to detect a players habits/style in the VERY short time span of a heads up sit-n-go, and as I mentioned prior a skilled player could also detect a bot and change his play/style to confuse or set the bot up.

I don't believe a bot would do very well at a full table. They can play perfect, but especially in limit, you often have 5+ players chasing to the river for draws. It's like the old no limit Aces dilemma... If you have AA pre-flop, but get all in with 4 other people, then sure, you're the 'one' favorite over each of them INDIVIDUALLY... but compared against ALL of them you're a huge dog. Example, you're 40% to win, and each other 4 players are 15%. Compared to each of them individually you have them crushed, but compared to your chances of winning against all you're a 60% dog.

I do believe a limit bot would do okay at the heads up sit-n-go's. Hell, I bet the no-limit bots did okay as well considering most people at lower limits are just awful players. I bet they would be winning bots, but I couldn't really estimate how much they might make a day/week/etc. My best guess would be if you had them running non stop sit-n-go's all day (lower limit where you might get a game easier - so like $10) would be something like $50/day? Again, this is a guess based off my experience 1) in getting someone to play you, 2) playing against bots myself, 3) rake, etc. If someone like me were to find your bot on a no limit sit-n-go, I would register to play it as many times in a row as I could, and I pretty much guarantee after 10 in a row I'd be ahead and you'd be out money. So again, the limit bot is 'probably' your best route for a small return.

Reasoning For Hesitation
I don't support this. While you will you get a small return, albeit a return, on a low "limit" bot... it wouldn't last and in my opinion there's only 2 logical outcomes:

1) It's bad for the game and ruins sit-n-go's online. Thus, everyone would just get a bot and then you'd have the bot vs. bot dilemma where you'd just trade luck losing the rake to the house each time.

2) Once people caught on to doing this they would figure out how to beat your bot. Someone with programming skill, such as myself, would get one and find it's weaknesses, then teach the world how to exploit them. Thus, it would be a constant effort of updating the bots, finding new weaknesses, exploiting them, etc, etc, until one day if you did have a perfect bot finally evolve (which I think is beyond most normal hacker/programmers abilities) then you'd find yourself in outcome 1 listed above.

Like I mentioned above my feelings are it ruins the game and I don't feel it would get you very much (or any - it all depends on whom your bot runs in to to play) of a return. You would stand to make a LOT more money by just investing time in to the game to actually get good at it, then cleaning up the lower limit sit-n-go's yourself =).

Quote: Romes

You would stand to make a LOT more money by just investing time in to the game to actually get good at it, then cleaning up the lower limit sit-n-go's yourself =).

No one wants to sit around doing that all day nowadays. It's not as good as it used to be. Any of the good sites seem to be closed to US players.


The bot bot appeal is the not having to actually play and make money while you sleep.

Personally I wouldn't be interested, but I know a few people that have mentioned it.

I know there are ring game bots, just not sure if they make money.As I said, I have heard rumors some are doing very well.

I have seen poker sites where there's a player sitting at multiple heads up limit cash games at various limits. They play very aggressive and don't chat a word. They sit for hours at a time. Ill assume they are bots.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have seen poker sites where there's a player sitting at multiple heads up limit cash games at various limits. They play very aggressive and don't chat a word. They sit for hours at a time. Ill assume they are bots.

I wouldn't assume these are bots without seeing their play. I used to do that as well. Especially once you find a few tricks and partially master the art of heads up you find it's really easy to make money if you can get people to play you, so you just sit at numerous tables and wait for a fish, playing numerous tables at a time if you can find a school of them =P.