Is this legal
Older couple husb/wife playing at the samr table. NL.
husb wins a pot that eventually ended up being heads up against wife
the dealer slides the loose chips to the man, and there are 2, 100 dollar stacks of nickles to be shipped...but the man says.."just give me one stack".....so that his wife wouldnt be short stacked,
the dealer followed that instruction
would I be viewed as a prick...to say something.
I was thinking that if i were to go up against his wife and she was short stacked I would have an advantage. But now she wasnt wounded as much.
If a patron can buy more chips, could the husband give her a $100 bill to do so?
If a patron could buy more chips, but "gifting stacks" was against house rules, then hubby would have to color up, attend the cage, cash out, give wifey the hundo, and have her buy back in. And we'd be sitting here debating why casinos have such stupid rules =)
Probably, but its better to be a prick with money than a nice-guy who is broke.Quote: LarryS
would I be viewed as a prick...to say something.
However, I would view this as a "What do you care" situation since the surest thing is that a Husband and Wife who play at the same table will fight each other all night long and he will be on the couch that night.
Quote: FaceIs there anything against a patron re-buying?
If a patron can buy more chips, could the husband give her a $100 bill to do so?
If a patron could buy more chips, but "gifting stacks" was against house rules, then hubby would have to color up, attend the cage, cash out, give wifey the hundo, and have her buy back in. And we'd be sitting here debating why casinos have such stupid rules =)
there are rules about taking your winnings off the table and playing with less chips to limit your future losses. And if you cash out and rebuy....there is a time limit for doing so, where you have to sit out a length of time.
So if the wife was a better player, and they pool their househild money anyway...its up to the man to let his wife have the larger stack for better possible results.
Yes the wife can be like anyone else and buy more chips...anyone can do that. I can do that..and its equal for everyone. What if the wife didnt have more money.
Butit seems like collusion where chips get slid from one player to another player.
Seems like it can be an advantage....like playing as a team.
Can a husband slide a few stacks of chips to his wife everytime she is gonna be betting in a late position. And then she can slide chips back to husband whenever he is gonna be betting a a late position.
So you are saying there is absolutely no rule against sliding chips back and forth between players at their will?
HOW did they end up heads up? By raising and reraising until everyone else folded? That's called collusion and is against the rules.Quote: LarryShusb wins a pot that eventually ended up being heads up against wife.
So now they are gonna split the pot so they both have the ammo to do it again? Not allowed, and collusion is part of the reason why.
Yes, there is a rule against it.Quote: LarrySSo you are saying there is absolutely no rule against sliding chips back and forth between players at their will?
Remember the scene in Rounder at the Taj Majal? Worm sits at the poker table next to Mike and takes part of his stack. The dealer stops him from doing so.
Rounders did their research and got it right. In fact, there is one instance of a String Bet, but it happened at one of the little restaurants having a back room game. Exactly the type of game where you might expect to see a string bet be allowed. (It was the hand where Mike folded and the other guy showed his hand and said, "Look at that, I bluffed the big ringer.")
It is called, "No chips can be removed from the table while you are in play."
By shipping 1/2 of the pot to another player, the husband just removed those chips from his stack. Proving it was collusion would be difficult, but, there is NO WAY the dealer should have allowed that to take place.
I don't fault you for not wanting to be a prick, but you and everyone else at the table is now playing at a disadvantage. What if the husband draws a big monster, but you get an even bigger monster? Assuming you have his stack covered, you're going to get paid much less (in this case, sounds like $100).
The husband and wife probably don't realize what they are doing is wrong, but the dealer should know. What I would do is take a bathroom break, find the poker room manager, explain what took place, and then ask them to;
either make sure it does not happen again,
or, go back and correct what has taken place.
And, I would ask the manager to wait a few minutes before he approaches the table, as I don't want to be viewed as a snitch. The manager can easily explain it off as surveillance called and asked why a pot appeared to be split when it was not warranted by the cards.
Quote: EdgeLookerI also hate when family members slow play each other, lol. Even in tournaments. To make it fair, it should be announced at the table who is related to who, even boyfriend/girlfriends lol.
It's not just family. Go play at a casino where the same locals are there are the time. They are all over the out of town fresh fish.
Part of it is, they have the advantage of all knowing each other's tendencies, so I think they tend to play better against each other.
i dont buy the logic that if someone can cash out and rebuy, then they can redistribute the chipos outside the table and then just come back in.
I think they would be made to wait if they wanted to do this.
So they could go to dinner and come back after cashing out. Then they may not even be at the same table when they return
Quote: EdgeLookerI also hate when family members slow play each other, lol. Even in tournaments. To make it fair, it should be announced at the table who is related to who, even boyfriend/girlfriends lol.
I believe all major poker tournaments are full of collusion and some of those poker pros that everybody idolizes are very much involved. The win rate of some of these pros seem to be way higher than their expected advantage. Too often you see pros dump chips off to other pros in a very suspicious way.
I have played with my wife at the same table. We've never colluded, but of course when it gets to a showdown with me and her, I'm not going to fold, because I want to beat her (I usually don't) and the money evens out anyway.
No one at the table cares. Like someone else said, what's the difference between a friend and a spouse?
Quote: FinsRuleIt's legal, sort of bad form, but not really. Let it go.
I have played with my wife at the same table. We've never colluded, but of course when it gets to a showdown with me and her, I'm not going to fold, because I want to beat her (I usually don't) and the money evens out anyway.
No one at the table cares. Like someone else said, what's the difference between a friend and a spouse?
It was already addressed. It is illegal.
If it wasnt, then friends and relatives could slide their chips back and forth between each other depending on their table position. Whenever you were last to act you would have a bigger stack...good deal
Quote: djatcMildly annoying at a 1/2 table, but seriously catastrophic at a higher table in my opinion. Most husband/wife teams aren't good players and just enjoy the game so it's not really a big deal, but when you're at a 5/10 or something like that I want rules enforced to the letter because of the $ involved.
I agree completely.
However, being short stacked provides a serious game-theoretic advantage, so it seems like they were passing chips in the wrong direction.
I would go further to say some of them outright cheated period. especially the older generations including WSOP winners. Just refer to Russ Hamilton. and a few other guys who have been involved with recent shenanigans.Quote: DRichI believe all major poker tournaments are full of collusion and some of those poker pros that everybody idolizes are very much involved. The win rate of some of these pros seem to be way higher than their expected advantage. Too often you see pros dump chips off to other pros in a very suspicious way.
You beat me to it. Also you can often get reads off on of them. They know much better how their better half plays. They even catch reads from each other you would not be able to.Quote: djatcMildly annoying at a 1/2 table, but seriously catastrophic at a higher table in my opinion. Most husband/wife teams aren't good players and just enjoy the game so it's not really a big deal
To not be viewed as a jerk the way to handle it would have been to ask the dealer, "are you allowed to do that at the table?" At that point someone else would probably chime in and the floor called over. If the room was not crowded the floor would possibly say they have to cash out, get up, sit down, and re-post blinds.
FWIW at the party games I am a stickler for not allowing couples to show each other their cards when one is out of the game. They usually understand but never knew it was a rule.
On a side bar, there is thick Mr. & Mrs. Rock at Ameristar. Both retired school teachers. He will occasionally raise with AA, but usually wants to see the flop first. If she even calls the flop, I am so gone. They rarely play at any table I am at anymore. Probably because
they sit adjacent to each other whenever possible. I always raise whenever one of them is in the blind. They hate not getting to see the flop cheap. Plus it makes it more noticeable how few hands they play.
Quote: BuzzardI have seen a guy walk away from the table, followed by another player who had wanted to borrow $100 from him. The guy pulled cash out of his wallet, both returned to the table. and the friend then bought $100 from the dealer. Nobody complained.
On a side bar, there is thick Mr. & Mrs. Rock at Ameristar. Both retired school teachers. He will occasionally raise with AA, but usually wants to see the flop first. If she even calls the flop, I am so gone. They rarely play at any table I am at anymore. Probably because
they sit adjacent to each other whenever possible. I always raise whenever one of them is in the blind. They hate not getting to see the flop cheap. Plus it makes it more noticeable how few hands they play.
they are stupid if they think they have to walk away from the table. If the 100 dollars is in the guys wallet and not paper money in action on the table its totally legal to sit at a table and reach in your ppoacket and give money to another player. It just cant be in acton during the current hand in progress
Quote: EdgeLookerI also hate when family members slow play each other, lol. Even in tournaments. To make it fair, it should be announced at the table who is related to who, even boyfriend/girlfriends lol.
The correct term is actually "soft" play and it's strictly prohibited in tournaments (there was a previous thread about being penalized for checking the nuts on the river).
Nobody complained because that's perfectly acceptable. Could even have done it at the table.Quote: BuzzardI have seen a guy walk away from the table, followed by another player who had wanted to borrow $100 from him. The guy pulled cash out of his wallet, both returned to the table. and the friend then bought $100 from the dealer. Nobody complained.
As long as it was cash from a wallet, ie never in play, it can be handed over.
In fact, you could take chips out of your pocket and hand them over at the table - as long as it was between hands. Note that if you do that, people might be suspicious, unless its a black chip and no black chips were ever in your stack or in play...
Quote: paisielloThe correct term is actually "soft" play and it's strictly prohibited in tournaments (there was a previous thread about being penalized for checking the nuts on the river).
And yet it happens a lot !
Quote: BuzzardI have seen a guy walk away from the table, followed by another player who had wanted to borrow $100 from him. The guy pulled cash out of his wallet, both returned to the table. and the friend then bought $100 from the dealer. Nobody complained..
I have seen similar events that you wouldnt believe
I saw someone drink a can of Pepsi at the table, when there was a soda fountain of free coke available.....OMG
I saw a man take off his glasses for a few minutes.....WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT!!!
I get up and leave the table for 10 minutes.......WTF was I thinking!!!!!
I have heard people call the floor....and ask for a menu.....HEY....
All these observations, are as amazing and equally legal as the man borrowing 100 dollars from his friend.............AWAY FROM THE TABLE..
Quote: RaleighCrapsIt's not just family. Go play at a casino where the same locals are there are the time. They are all over the out of town fresh fish.
Part of it is, they have the advantage of all knowing each other's tendencies, so I think they tend to play better against each other.
Hello Ballys AC!
Quote: BuzzardAnd yet it happens a lot !
Sure does and it %+/!#@ me off.
And what gets me even more is THEY get mad at ME when I bet THEM heads up!
removing chips fromthe table to buy a meal, or to give to a spouse..still illegal
How does that give me ability to win my chips back from a guy, if he can slide his chips to his wife.....and then the wife leaves the table 1 hand later....leaving him with less chips..
its funny how people think its legal to slide chips to a spouse or friend.
Cash game (spread limit 2-6). I am sitting with a friend. She raises preflop, I have AA. I reraise, everybody folds. So definitely no collusion, I would never do that.
We are heads up and I check down to the river. Don't want to hurt her.
Illegal? Inacceptable? OK?
Quote: wernerw
We are heads up and I check down to the river.
Except I was caught inbetween and didnt want to face another re-raise from your friend, so I folded instead. Since the two of you don't want to hurt each other you both don't have to worry about any re-raising especially after the flop. So the two of you are effectively colluding if unintentionally.
BTW I think you meant to say 3-6 limit?
Quote: paisielloExcept I was caught inbetween and didnt want to face another re-raise from your friend, so I folded instead. Since the two of you don't want to hurt each other you both don't have to worry about any re-raising especially after the flop. So the two of you are effectively colluding if unintentionally.
BTW I think you meant to say 3-6 limit?
no, 2-6 spread. Excalibur.
I understand your point. I played many hands not heads up "normally", no matter if friend is in the hand or not. Just heads up, I played soft.
Actually, no. Not only is it not illegal, but it is the preferred method for a couple reasons:Quote: LarrySAlthough no one calls it because its not that significant....but I would think that if someone gets a meal delivered to the table and hands the server 20 dollars in chips for the meal and tip from his chip pile.....this would be improper as well Even getting a free drink and giving the waitress a dollar chip from your pile i would think is technically illegal.
A. The amount is generally small enough to be considered incedental.
B. It's faster than paying cash. In the interest of not delaying the game, it's preferred.
C. If forced to pay cash, players might not order as much.
D. If forced to pay cash, players might go to a restaurant, while leaving their seat locked up.
In summary, this exception is done to maximize the hands per hour as well as the pot size. And that maximizes the total rake which is all the casino really cares about.
Quote: wernerwno, 2-6 spread. Excalibur.
I think there are bad beat bonuses or Aces cracked? In that case I sure would have tried to get the pot to qualify (somewhere along the way) and then checked down against anybody hopping to get the bonus.
More to the topic. Once it is heads up, I don't care how you play against a friend, I'm not trying to pick anything up against you in that case either way. It would be nice if you made it clear this was a friend you were heads up against via table talk.
Quote: paisielloStill not fair to me who threw away a good hand.
Did you throw it away because you were afraid of collusion?
Quote: DJTeddyBearActually, no. Not only is it not illegal, but it is the preferred method for a couple reasons:
A. The amount is generally small enough to be considered incedental.
B. It's faster than paying cash. In the interest of not delaying the game, it's preferred.
C. If forced to pay cash, players might not order as much.
D. If forced to pay cash, players might go to a restaurant, while leaving their seat locked up.
In summary, this exception is done to maximize the hands per hour as well as the pot size. And that maximizes the total rake which is all the casino really cares about.
Is there actually a poker rule that is on the books that allows people to take money off the table for certain instances. So if he has his wife looking at him play, and he orderrs food ,for 2...he can take 40 doolars off his stack for food and tip..and that is not concidered "taking money off the table". Or he can order food, and send the waitress to get him 2 packs of cigarettes and take 60 dollars off the table. I have read posted "house rules" of all the rooms I have ever played, and none of them addresses exceptins for taking money off the table. If you can eat at the table, and take 40 dollars off your stack, or a dollar off your stack..it doesnt matter?...I dont think there is a posted amount you cant remove from the table that is legally allowable. Or maybe there is...maybe you can point to a poker rule that allows the removal of money from the table while playing.....where X amount of money is ok...anf Y amount of money is "over the limit". Can I leave the table with 40 dollars in chips from my stack and go to the gift shop and buy some snacks and a scented candle for my wife...if it takes less than 5 min. Can I send my wife to the steak house with 100 dollars off of my stack to get us 2 steaks? Is there a rule that taking money off you stack has to go directly tyo a waitress? Can it be for more than food or drink? There must be some big set of rules taking this into account. Or is it techically not legal to take any moenyoff the table....but like I originally said...people accept it because the amounts are small.
You cant take money off the table and go eat out of the room. So there is no rule about being able to eat. There must be some specific rule about taking money off the table to eat at the table. You know a rule with dollar limits to be fair to the rest of the table. Otherwise its just a bending/breaking of the rule that everyone agrees to,
Everyone doesnt eat at the same time in cash games. They arrive at different times. They get hungry at different times. So the rake for 6 people is the same as the rake for 10 people in the NL tables I have played.
I am not saying that its not more convenient, and that the house might look the other way....but I am just guessing that there is not some special poker rule that allows x amount of dollars to be used from your stack.....and anything aboive this figure is deemed excessive and not allowed.
Quote: DJTeddyBearActually, no. Not only is it not illegal, but it is the preferred method for a couple reasons:
A. The amount is generally small enough to be considered incedental.
B. It's faster than paying cash. In the interest of not delaying the game, it's preferred.
C. If forced to pay cash, players might not order as much.
D. If forced to pay cash, players might go to a restaurant, while leaving their seat locked up.
In summary, this exception is done to maximize the hands per hour as well as the pot size. And that maximizes the total rake which is all the casino really cares about.
And of course there is also this :
47.1-1023 Table stakes and “all in.
(1) Players in player banked games may bet only the visible portion of currency and chips in front of them on the table when the hand begins. Such players may add to their stacks at any time before the hand starts, but cannot take money that has been in play for even one hand off the table until they cash out, except that money on the table may be used for tips and to purchase food and beverages served at the table.
Paying for your wife's food is probably ok because it falls under the threshold. After all, it's hard to rack up a big bill with the limited menu most poker rooms have c
What is the actual threshold? Ask. That changes from room to room and possibly even from one floor person to another.
Can you provide a link for that rule?
Thanks
http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1251851890077&ssbinary=true
That being said the original case from the OP is against the rules there.
(4) A player who has been awarded a pot, or any portion thereof, shall not share any portion of such
winnings with any other player until the winning
player has cashed out and left the game, nor
shall any licensee permit such sharing except in t
ournament play pursuant to rule 47.1-1058(4). A
winning player is permitted to place an ante or b
lind for a player whom the winner has just beaten
in the previous hand, unless prohibited by house ru
les or objected to by other players. (47.1-
1023, perm. 3/31/96; 47.1-1023 (1)-(2) amended,
(3)-(4) added 10/30/97; amended 12/30/04)
Quote: Buzzardlater, gotta go sorry
Hey youre back already?
Quote: wernerwMay I come in with a question about soft play here?
Cash game (spread limit 2-6). I am sitting with a friend. She raises preflop, I have AA. I reraise, everybody folds. So definitely no collusion, I would never do that.
We are heads up and I check down to the river. Don't want to hurt her.
Illegal? Inacceptable? OK?
Every time I have done this I got sucked out on the River!
Quote: BuzzardAnd of course there is also this :
47.1-1023 Table stakes and “all in.
(1) Players in player banked games may bet only the visible portion of currency and chips in front of them on the table when the hand begins. Such players may add to their stacks at any time before the hand starts, but cannot take money that has been in play for even one hand off the table until they cash out, except that money on the table may be used for tips and to purchase food and beverages served at the table.
http://www.sos.state.co.us/CCR/Rule.do?deptID=19&deptName=200%20Revenue&agencyID=45&agencyName=207%A0Gaming%20-%20Rules%20promulgated%20by%20Gaming%20Commission%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20,%20Division%20of&ccrDocID=2018&ccrDocName=1%20CCR%20207-1%20GAMING%20REGULATIONS&subDocID=57560&subDocName=RULE%2010%20%20RULES%20FOR%20POKER&version=61
Quote: Buzzardhttp://www.sos.state.co.us/CCR/Rule.do?deptID=19&deptName=200%20Revenue&agencyID=45&agencyName=207%A0Gaming%20-%20Rules%20promulgated%20by%20Gaming%20Commission%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20,%20Division%20of&ccrDocID=2018&ccrDocName=1%20CCR%20207-1%20GAMING%20REGULATIONS&subDocID=57560&subDocName=RULE%2010%20%20RULES%20FOR%20POKER&version=61
Thanks
next time I am on the Wizard of Colorado website, this will be a great resource for me.
