Folding anything less than 2 pair

I read the Avg. winning hand in THE was 2 pair, so would it be good practice, not to showdown anything less than 2 pair ?

At the 4/8 table I usually play, 2 pair seems to be beaten a high % of the time.

Take 1 step further and not showdown anything less than a set or trips ?

I see so many people get attached to ALL pairs, especially K/A's, only to lose at the show down.

Also Flushes, rarely seem to materialize, many players stay and bet their draw- only to "miss on the river".

Could I save $$ on my draws by folding prior to the river, i.e. no flush on the flop fold, or make 1 more bet on the turn ? Assuming 2 suited cards 10 or above.

Would these be bad strategies ?

It's all about the board. If the board is paired, your two pair might be very weak. If the board is unpaired and 3 or 4 suited, AA or KK is a huge hand.

Quote: DonPedro

I read the Avg. winning hand in THE was 2 pair, so would it be good practice, not to showdown anything less than 2 pair ?

At the 4/8 table I usually play, 2 pair seems to be beaten a high % of the time.

Take 1 step further and not showdown anything less than a set or trips ?

I see so many people get attached to ALL pairs, especially K/A's, only to lose at the show down.

Also Flushes, rarely seem to materialize, many players stay and bet their draw- only to "miss on the river".

Could I save $$ on my draws by folding prior to the river, i.e. no flush on the flop fold, or make 1 more bet on the turn ? Assuming 2 suited cards 10 or above.

Would these be bad strategies ?

This sounds pretty bad to me.

Ok, as the previous reply mentioned, board texture is important. Are straights or flushes possible? Both? Is the board paired? And, how are people betting? If the board is paired with a 4-flush and a 4-straight and you face a bet and 2 raises your trips can probably safely go in the muck, especially in a 4-8 game.

In a typical low limit game (lots of people see the flop and don't like to fold) flush draws are powerful. A flush draw on the flop comes in about 1/3 of the time. It's true that it doesn't always win, but it's also true that you have other ways to win (by spiking a pair, 2 pair, or trips, or maybe a backdoor straight draw).

So, if there are more than 2 other people in the pot, you should be betting and raising if your raises won't drive anyone out (which is usually the case in a low limit game). This is particularly true for a nut-flush draw, since you also have 3 outs to top pair. In a perfect world you will force out the better aces and keep the worse flush draws around :) Don't be one of those passive players who checks all the time and then happily drags a tiny pot when their flushes hit. Those pots should be big!! You are giving away a lot of money by not betting a good draw into a large field on the flop. If you win 1/3 of the time you need to happily bet when getting 4-1 odds on every dollar you put in, even though you lose most of the time.

If you miss the turn, your odds drop to a little worse than 1/5, so you generally have to slow down unless there are still a lot of people in and they don't feel like folding (not really that unusual). You should be aware, though, that betting aggressively on the flop and slowing down on the turn screams "draw" to anyone who is paying even a little bit of attention. Try to figure out if your opponents notice these things (that's an obvious one, though, and even the clueless opponents tend to notice. You can occasionally use this to your advantage and get a check-raise in on the turn with a strong hand)

The bigger the pot gets, the harder it is to fold. Remember that if there are 20 bets in the pot, you need to be REALLY sure to fold top pair. If you have the winner one time out of 10, you have a HUGE overlay by calling. This means that calling with a loser is the right play a lot of the time in limit poker. Minimize this by folding your trash hands pre-flop.

Have you read "Small Stakes Hold'em" by Ed Miller? I recommended it in another thread. Read it. It will pay for itself VERY quickly.

I don't want to judge, but, from your post, you sound like a tight, passive player who can't figure out why he always loses despite the fact that he only plays good hands. Read the book. It will help you understand the game and start turning those losses into wins.

Quote: DonPedro

I read the Avg. winning hand in THE was 2 pair, so would it be good practice, not to showdown anything less than 2 pair ?

No. It's a terrible practice.

What you're suggesting is actually how most "locals" (mainlanders really) in Macau play. They'll call with anything with solid potential pre-flop, then, if they don't get a hand, easily back away or occasionally keep defending a dead draw. That's a goldmine... for any player at the table who isn't afraid to push hard with TPGK and accept a percentage of losses to big hands.

You're playing limit, right? Calling it "THE" instead of "NLH" seems to suggest that. In limit it might kind of make sense, but your risk is smaller in limit, so it depends on board texture. In no limit or pot limit, it doesn't even depend on that - it's always a bad idea to blanket-fold any less than 2P+.

You need to randomize your game against strong opponents, or, against weak opponents, try to gauge whether your opponents are strong. Sometimes even a low-middle pair takes the pot at SD... it happens, when players "get personal", i.e. start paying too much attention to the human factor and too little to the cards and odds. Sometimes all you have is middle pair, and it's still not worthless, you still can extract value from it, if your opponents are either too aggressive (bluffing "playas"), too timid (rocks) or too trappy (asians). In limit it's worthless though.

But any top pair is a hand you should play, if the situation is favorable, but be ready to fold without remorse the moment you feel it doesn't measure up to the opposition.

What you're told in all basic situations is 8-8-8 or better. I fully agree that board composition plays a large factor in what is a winner in a usually heads-up showdown.
The simple examples seem quite fairly stated. I will further the no flush board to a no 3-straight board (unusual) that even a pair of 8's has fair chance, and any 2nd best pair should call a smallish (re: value bet) for example a 4-suited board like KQ862. I'll let my betters discuss bluffing, check-raising, etc on this one.

Basically, once you've reached the river, you don't want to fold unless either you've been drawing and missed or your opponent's been drawing and hit. There's definitely a time and a place to play top pair, but be careful. (And note that "careful" doesn't mean "passive" by any means - the last thing you want is for someone with a low/middle pair to get trips or two pair from a free card.)

Flushes (and outside straights) in limit are all about pot odds, and in 4/8 you'll usually have them. You'll usually miss, but the pots you'll win will make up for it.

Quote: DonPedro

II see so many people get attached to ALL pairs, especially K/A's, only to lose at the show down.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who get married to a set. Yes, it is not a bad hand by any means and statistically you are correct: the average winning hand in Hold Em (no-limit and limit) is 2 pair. But I see players of all stripes calling bets all the way to the river just because they flopped a set. The have pocket 3's, a 3 comes on the flop, and they will pour $16+ into a pot when a flush (not of a suit that they even have) is staring them right in the face. And this isn't because they are "stupid." It is because there is just something in many poker players' brains that will not allow them to surrender a set.

Quote: HorseJeff

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who get married to a set. Yes, it is not a bad hand by any means and statistically you are correct: the average winning hand in Hold Em (no-limit and limit) is 2 pair. But I see players of all stripes calling bets all the way to the river just because they flopped a set. The have pocket 3's, a 3 comes on the flop, and they will pour $16+ into a pot when a flush (not of a suit that they even have) is staring them right in the face. And this isn't because they are "stupid." It is because there is just something in many poker players' brains that will not allow them to surrender a set.

In limit, getting married to a set is fine as long as you're not facing more than one bet per street. On flush boards, sets become "boat draws". Now calling with a set on a 4 flush river is a leak vs. most.

Quote: tringlomane

Now calling with a set on a 4 flush river is a leak vs. most.

My point exactly. And a boat or quad draw only makes sense depending on whether or not you're getting pot odds.

Quote: rdw4potus

It's all about the board. If the board is paired, your two pair might be very weak. If the board is unpaired and 3 or 4 suited, AA or KK is a huge hand.

well thats 100% dead wrong. AA or KK is a huge hand on a paired board. there are many more ways someone can make two pair or a straight on an unpaired board than trips on a paired board.