Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 11:54:07 AM permalink
Quote: PerpetualNewbie

While your robbery analogy may work specifically for you (when you're playing, you're still an off-duty worker/operator of sorts), it's more appropriate to place the rest of us as a customer in the store that's being robbed. Is it our duty to intervene? Sure, a Good Samaritan is appreciated. But, such a person goes out of his way and accepts risk to himself and everyone around him for no personal gain.



Would it be out of your way to call 911, and willing to be a witness on a real crime? (Look up Kitty Genovese.)

In a casino environment, what real danger is there in saying "Dealer - you ARE showing your hole card," -- or -- "you do have a flush," - even if you stepped away from the table to talk to a floorman away from the action at hand?

Seeing the action - and knowing the rules as well as right action to take -(even in a safe environment) - is hard for too many people to carry out with their money - or even the money of their so-called "side" - like there is a side under the fair rules of a game with money on the line.

- does the average gambler take any dirty money when it's in his favor, or on his "side's" favor? ("Dealer mistake makes it mine!" or "Dealer didn't notice this free-play coupon is expired. I'll give it a shot ANYWAY...") See it day in and day out...

- does the average gambler cry a very loud foul - if the mistake happens to be against him?

- does the average gambler say anything if he sees another player cheat and get away with it?, AND

- does the average gambler say anything if the house were to cheat, - and he knows it?

I believe in a level playing field with up-front rules of play - with money on the line.

There's the rules, there's what what we do indeed see, - and then there's inaction, UNLESS it is in our favor to speak.

Dealt for years. The average casino dealer processes a thousand times more in cash transactions in a shift per each deal, than an average bank teller does in a month.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
kp
kp
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
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July 26th, 2011 at 12:11:07 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: kp

BTW, I also believe that the casino does their best to distract and impair the player in order to give the casino an unfair advantage.


Total crock, absolute crock. Casino dealers and floormen have no interest or cut of the casino owner's profit, and also have less love for their casino management than they do their players, for the most part, aside from a handful of really rude and cheating dice players, who we keep in line.


I said "casino" as in owners/management. I agree that the dealers/floormen are more referees except in rare cases when someone has a grudge one way or the other.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: kp

How often have you seen a floorman tell a player they missed a straight/flush and to reset the hand, and then pay them if they win?

A lot, - and I am damn proud of them.


I have never in all my years of playing Pai-Gow seen a floorman reset a losing/pushing player's hand to a better way and then pay them for a win. Has anyone else ever seen this? I have seen where a fouled hand that set correctly would have won/pushed will instead get a push and a warning that next time you lose. I want to play at your casino where you get to reset your hand after the dealer sets their hand.
PapaChubby
PapaChubby
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July 26th, 2011 at 12:20:46 PM permalink
Quote: kp

I have never in all my years of playing Pai-Gow seen a floorman reset a losing/pushing player's hand to a better way and then pay them for a win. Has anyone else ever seen this?



I saw this on my trip to Vegas a few weeks ago. I was playing with my friends, who were Vegas rookies. One of 'em set their hand like a king-high pai gow. When the dealer turned it over, we all realized he really had a straight plus a pair. The dealer called over the floorman, and they reset his hand and paid his winner. The king-high would've been a loser.

I was kind of amazed.
PerpetualNewbie
PerpetualNewbie
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July 26th, 2011 at 12:33:15 PM permalink
Entirely situational as to what was going on. Did anyone get hurt or was a few hundred bucks taken out of the register? Significant damage or not? Is someone actually getting hurt or is it just a scary day in the neighborhood?

There are processes within every business to handle all of these things. So long as nobody's getting hurt, I'm not going to intervene. The loss of cash and/or product is insured. Cashiers are specifically instructed to give it away if someone tries to rob them. The company already pays for the insurance. Let them use it. Being a hero only has two outcomes: (A) You save the day and save someone else some amount of money (B) you involve yourself in a situation, potentially escalating it and causing a greater amount of harm to all parties involved.

I analyze the situation, determine what the best course of action for me to take is and then I take it. It's selfish, it's one-sided and it's not always nice, proper or polite.

Quote: Paigowdan
Seeing the action - and knowing the rules as well as right[/b

action to take -(even in a safe environment) - is hard for too many people to carry out with their money - or even the money of their so-called "side" - like there is a side under the fair rules of a game.



You're objectively assigning a value to an action based on your own morality and code of ethics. The 'rules' of life that I play by are different. That's all this disagreement and conversation is. You're not going to agree with me and you're certainly not going to convince me to adopt your point of view. You're welcome to stand on your pedestal and convince yourself that your way is better. Socially, it probably is.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 12:39:23 PM permalink
Quote: kp

I have never in all my years of playing Pai-Gow seen a floorman reset a losing/pushing player's hand to a better way and then pay them for a win. Has anyone else ever seen this? I have seen where a fouled hand that set correctly would have won/pushed will instead get a push and a warning that next time you lose. I want to play at your casino where you get to reset your hand after the dealer sets their hand.



Again, I see it all the time:
1. When tapping a dealer out, I have noticed that the dealer had paid a full house hand only 3:1 on the Fortune bonus bet, noticing only the player's three-of-a-kind on the five-card side after splitting the hand. I tell the dealer - "She has a full house - she gets paid 5:1, not 3:1, you owe her an additinal $10, $25, not $15." Dealer notices it, carries it out while she is processing the hand during the take-and-pay. NO one notices, - but the house could have gotten away with a whole extra ten bucks...why? We don't.

2. Boxman on a dice game says to a base dealer - "Player had a Horn-High 12 in action, not a Horn-High-Yo (11), - and 12 was rolled. PAY the player $57, not $11" - and the dealer carries that out, paying out an additional $46, as the floor crew was taking care of the players all along to make sure they all get their proper payment. NO player ever makes a mental note of this either, except to think "They were trying to CHEAT ME from the get-go - AHAH!" when a honest mistake was made - and immediately corrected by staff in the player's fair favor, and by the house itself.

3. We routinely reset fouled Pai Gow hands for the push/tie - instead of declaring a player's loss. Player makes an honest mistake. Always routine - as the hand would have pushed as dealt anyway! Player says, "I mean to set it as xx/xxxx instead of yy/yyyy, - I was tired/been playing for hours/came in on a Red-eye flight/what have you/whatever." We look at the hand, we see it for what it was, honest mistake, no problem.

4. The Fiesta Henderson Casino is located at 777 West Lake Meade Parkway, Henderson, Nevada.
5. The Cannery Casino is located on Boulder Highway at Harmon Avenue, Las Vegas/ Nevada.
6. Sam's Town Casino is located at Boulder Highway/Nellis and Flamingo Road.
7. Sunset Station Casino is located on Sunset Road and Stephanie, Henderson, NV
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 12:42:52 PM permalink
Quote: PerpetualNewbie

You're objectively assigning a value to an action based on your own morality and code of ethics.



No - I'm saying the hand plays as it is properly dealt - including if a mistake or a cheating action was caught in play and addressed.

Quote: PereptualNewbie

The 'rules' of life that I play by are different.



No argument here, by far.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
PerpetualNewbie
PerpetualNewbie
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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July 26th, 2011 at 12:42:54 PM permalink
You were editing while I was composing..

Quote: Paigowdan


I believe in a level playing field with up-front rules of play - with money on the line.



I believe that level playing field is created by each side defending and supporting his or her position. That if we all do our parts (and this goes back to the - "We're all responsible for our own hands" quip) the environment will naturally level itself.

And one more edit..

Quote: Paigowdan


3. We routinely reset fouled Pai Gow hands for the push/tie - instead of declaring a player's loss. Player makes an honest mistake. Always routine - as the hand would have pushed as dealt anyway! Player says, "I mean to set it as xx/xxxx instead of yy/yyyy, - I was tired/been playing for hours/came in on a Red-eye flight/what have you/whatever." We look at the hand, we see it for what it was, honest mistake, no problem.



I have seen houses do this. I've seen some that don't. What I've never, ever seen is a casino re-set {J7|55742} (My wife, bless her soul, has done this at least a half dozen times through what I can only call pure inattention) Casinos know damned well how that hand is intended to be set and the response (from both dealer and floor) is always, "Well, it's a legitimate setting, there's nothing we can do *shrug*"

And one more anecdote in the other direction - I was playing at the ElCo in February and I split up a pair of aces to make two A-high hands {AT|AJ245}. House had two pair, split, I lost the hand. The dealer calls the floor and the floor assumed I didn't know what I was doing and tried to reset the hand. It took me a solid 3 minutes of discussing with her that I had done this on purpose and didn't want the bet back. She insisted on it. So.. not really knowing what to do, I toked the entire bet. I acted in good faith. I lost. I moved on. I might live life aggressively, but I like to think I do it fairly.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 12:48:27 PM permalink
We're gambling here, and the established rules of play are known going in. "Situational ethics" in gambling = no ethics.

1. If a mistake is caught and corrected, - as the hand would have indeed played - that is carried out.
2. You don't want to get away with a money from a mistake or from any malfeasance. You want to win it from best strategy play and from honest play. You should not want it otherwise. This is a sticking point.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
PerpetualNewbie
PerpetualNewbie
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July 26th, 2011 at 12:58:02 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

We're gambling here, and the established rules of play are known going in.

1. If a mistake is caught and corrected, - as the hand would have indeed played - that is carried out.
2. You don't want to get away with a money from a mistake or from any malfeasance. You want to win it from best strategy play and from honest play. You should not want it otherwise. This is a sticking point.



1. I can't speak for anyone else. But I agree with this. The house has multiple layers of protection for it's hand and if the floor catches a hand mis-set, it is (usually) in the house's favor to set it correctly.

2. You may want money that way. Some of us will take it anyway we get it. Again, you're projecting your ethics on the rest of us.

And - for the record - I'm not advocating that you shouldn't say anything. I'm advocating that you simply don't have to... There's no onus upon you to do so. If you choose to do, that's your business.

Jeez, we're going to take over the post count champs at this rate :)
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 1:03:29 PM permalink
Quote: PerpertualNewbie

...Some of us will take it anyway we get it




Situational or "relative" ethics - especially when applied to gambling = not playing by the rules, but by playing by my rules, "as I see fit."

Quote: PerpertualNewbie

Jeez, we're going to take over the post count champs at this rate :)


Not a chance. DJ Dave has got us beat forever... :)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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