Roulette -- Order of the numbers
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14 members have voted
- Position the 00 at the 12:00 position and the 0 at the 6:00 position.
- The numbers at the top of the wheel are 13, 1, 00, 27, 10*, 25. This must simply be memorized.
- Note that all low odd numbers (from 1 to 17) are on the left side and the high odds (19 to 35) on the right side.
- Unless otherwise stated in rule 2, for the low odds, go 4 positions counterclockwise from the last one, and for the high odds, to 4 positions clockwise.
- All even numbers are directly across the wheel, 180 degrees, from the preceding odd number.
* The 10 does not need to be memorized, as it is directly across from the 9, as stated in rule 5. However, it must be noted that some even number is in that spot.
Any questions? Any suggestions on an even simpler way to put it? All due credit to AZD for his help with this.
The question for the poll is what do you think?
wheel, the outcomes would still be
random. I don't understand what the
point of this is. The number arrangement
on the wheel has nothing to do with
the outcomes.
I always assumed it’s ordered like this for mainly historical reasons so that a biased wheel is harder to spot/exploit. If a certain quadrant of wheel is hitting more than it should, it’s easier to see that when the quadrant’s numbers are 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 instead of 27-10-25-29-12-8-19-31-18.Quote: EvenBobIf they were in numerical order around the
wheel, the outcomes would still be
random. I don't understand what the
point of this is. The number arrangement
on the wheel has nothing to do with
the outcomes.
Quote: EvenBobIf they were in numerical order around the
wheel, the outcomes would still be
random. I don't understand what the
point of this is. The number arrangement
on the wheel has nothing to do with
the outcomes.
You're absolutely right. I think the reason the numbers are spread around is to make it more difficult to notice a biased wheel. For example, if the part of the wheel around 23 were lowest, then you notice a lot of numbers winning in the low 20's. Make the order seem random and it is harder to tell.
As I just said at DT, modern roulette wheels are very fair and balanced, but maybe 200 years ago that wasn't so much the case.
Quote: Ace2I always assumed it’s ordered like this for mainly historical reasons so that a biased wheel is harder to spot/exploit. If a certain quadrant of wheel is hitting more than it should, it’s easier to see that when the quadrant’s numbers are 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 instead of 27-10-25-29-12-8-19-31-18.
We were obviously posting at the same time.
If the numbers were simply in numerical rising order and i bet 1-12 and the ball is clacking away around numbers 20-26 im done. Chances of a last minute bouncing win are slim.
But with numbers the way they are ordered im screaming at the wheel to jump out and give me a last minute win
Quote: darkozI think the answers the same as why red and black are patterned intermittently. It keeps everyones skin in the game to the very last second
Good point.
Quote: WizardOne question I get from time to time is whether there is any order to the numbers on the roulette wheel. AZDuffman suggested some order, to what looks like chaos to me, via PM. I'd like to think I've improved up on the way he put it. That said, here is the simplest way I can think of to explain the arrangement of numbers on a double-zero wheel.
- Position the 00 at the 12:00 position and the 0 at the 6:00 position.
- The numbers at the top of the wheel are 13, 1, 00, 27, 10*, 25. This must simply be memorized.
- Note that all low odd numbers (from 1 to 17) are on the left side and the high odds (19 to 35) on the right side.
- Unless otherwise stated in rule 2, for the low odds, go 4 positions counterclockwise from the last one, and for the high odds, to 4 positions clockwise.
- All even numbers are directly across the wheel, 180 degrees, from the preceding odd number.
* The 10 does not need to be memorized, as it is directly across from the 9, as stated in rule 5. However, it must be noted that some even number is in that spot.
Any questions? Any suggestions on an even simpler way to put it? All due credit to AZD for his help with this.
The question for the poll is what do you think?
There is a pattern. On a 00 wheel, start at 1. 2 is directly across from it. Go back to 1 and 3 is three spaces from it. 4 directly across from that, rinse and repeat.
P.S. the thyroid controls metabolism. Have family member taking medicine for it.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThere is a pattern. On a 00 wheel, start at 1. 2 is directly across from it. Go back to 1 and 3 is three spaces from it. 4 directly across from that, rinse and repeat.
How do you explain getting from 12 to 13?
Quote: WizardHow do you explain getting from 12 to 13?
Got me there! 😁
Did notice this. Start at 2 and add the next three, (14, 35, 23), etc., and they all add up to 74 with the last two number adding up to 37.
[ _ ] What difference does the order make?
[ _ ] How about a single-zero wheel?
[ _ ] Let's discuss that biased roulette wheel on TBBT.
[ _ ] Total eclipse reminder -- 04/08/2024
[ _ ] These WoO Academy videos are too long and boring.
[ _ ] I can tell the difference between butter & Parkay.
[ _ ] I say I like jazz -- but really don't.
[ _ ] Wiz, did you lose some weight since Cutting Edge?
[ _ ] What does the thyroid do?
[ X ] To get what actually matters about the matter, Mike Caro's Roulette System #1 did it all firstest & bestest, still gets everything any dudes or dudettes ever need to know on the whole roulette orderly numberology thing for all of ever.
Here she be, still one hot mama of a system after all these years: Caro’s Roulette System #1
And totally endorsed by real lifelike innerwebz science-y type people after magic secret decoded by truth-y geeks at:Quote:Startling disclosure by respected gambling authority has casino execs scratching heads
NOTE TO READER: The following message was posted to the newsgroup rec.gambling.poker in 1997. Mike Caro was responding to a request for a good roulette system. Caro, who has for years maintained that you cannot overcome the odds against you at craps or roulette, steadfastly believes in this system. He calls it Caro’s Roulette System #1. Surprisingly, some of the top mathematicians in the world have endorsed it... ...<SNIP>...
PhysicsForums (thread pg. 2):
Finally, the wizardly power in the special secret sauce of the magic roulette fairy dust gets revealed by Mike "The Mad Genius of Commerce Casino" Caro: Caro’s Roulette System #1 - EXPLAINEDQuote: Geeks discussin' geek details - boring stuff to skip...<SNIP>...
...But by phrasing it this way, as excluding 30 and also numbers from 11 to 14 it doesn't sound so drastic, since 11 to 14 intuitively sounds like a small range. This helps make the trick a bit less obvious. Cheers -- sylas
Science Advisor russ_watters said: ↑ Isn't that just what laymen call "watching"?
sylas - Well, if you want to skip over all the technical details and calculations of mean return etc... yes.
Quote: Mad Maniac Mike (the other one)Warning:
Read only after you’ve seen Caro’s Roulette System #1.
...<SNIP>...
Quote: WizardYou're absolutely right. I think the reason the numbers are spread around is to make it more difficult to notice a biased wheel.
I believe it's even simpler than that. It's to
give the player the absolute assurance
of random. Look at our wheel, the casino
says, the numbers are spaced to counter-
balance each pocket numerically, for R/B,
O/E and H/L also. This assures you of a
random outcome, so we can play with
confidence.
This is done on every kind of roulette wheel,
it differs by 0 and 0/00 types, and by
manufacturer. I believe that if the numbers
were in numerical order, people would freak
out that the casino was cheating them somehow.
I'm not sure they were even aware of bias when
roulette was in it's infancy and the numbering
thing started. In EU casinos, you were lucky if
they spun half a dozen numbers an hour. They
didn't use chips, they used actual money. So
after every spin they had to determine who
made what bet, it was a real cluster frick. With
so few spins per day, detecting bias would not
have been much of a concern.
I find the single zero wheel to be even more perplexing
Roulette-18®. How to Play.
Roulette-18®. Math at Wizard of Odds.
Quote: WizardYou're absolutely right. I think the reason the numbers are spread around is to make it more difficult to notice a biased wheel. For example, if the part of the wheel around 23 were lowest, then you notice a lot of numbers winning in the low 20's. Make the order seem random and it is harder to tell.
As I just said at DT, modern roulette wheels are very fair and balanced, but maybe 200 years ago that wasn't so much the case.
IMHO, it also makes it impossible to have a croupier control where the ball might land. While hitting a single number anywhere beyond random would be impossible, if the wheel is spun at a near constant speed a skilled person could probably hit a section of numbers with lots of practice. Yes, lots and lots, and not everyone, But if someone could do it and got a team they could trust, said team could spread bets over the area of numbers to grind out some wins.
As to the pattern, it is very clever. While I figured it out in a few hours, I thought I had it several times, only to find I did not. You cannot get the pattern by looking at red/black on the layout (at least I could not, which I tried to find the pattern just by looking there.) Players will probably look at the layout, not the wheel, as it is easier to stare out and check out. Even when I found the "groups of 4" there are a couple "throwaway" groups of just 2 to throw you off.
- Position the 00 at the 12:00 position and the 0 at the 6:00 position.
- The numbers at the top of the wheel are 13, 1, 00, 27, 10*, 25. This must simply be memorized.
- All low odd numbers (from 1 to 17) are on the left side and the high odds (19 to 35) on the right side.
- Starting with the 1 and 13, move four positions counter-clockwise to get the next odd, but do not pass the zero.
- As an exception to rule 4, do not place the 19 four positions counter-clockwise from the 17, because the 19 is a high odd and belongs on the right side. Instead, put the 11, the only low odd not otherwise covered in rule 4.
- All even numbers are directly across the wheel, 180 degrees, from the preceding odd number.
A couple members have suggested this method via PM:
- Position the 00 at the 12:00 position and the 0 at the 6:00 position.
- Divide the wheel into groups of four numbers, starting with the 00.
- Define a low number as 1-12, medium as 13-24, and high as 25-36.
- Consider the four four-number slices on the left side of the wheel, starting with the four-number slice to the left of the 00. Put from right to left in each slice, starting with the top, and moving counter-clockwise: lowest remaining low odd, lowest remaining middle odd, highest remaining high even, highest remaining middle even.
- Exception to rule 4: Place an 11 instead of the 19.
- After the 26, place a 9 and 28, in order.
- After the zero, continue breaking up the wheel into four-number slices, continuing to go counter-clockwise.
- As you move around the wheel, put the following in each four-number slice: lowest remaining low even, lowest remaining middle even, highest remaining high odd, highest remaining middle odd.
- Exceptions to the above: Place an 12 instead of the 20 and a 25 instead of 17.
- After the 25, place a 10 and 27, in order.
Did I get the above right?
2A. Counter-clockwise the order is 2 odd numbers followed by 2 even numbers except for the last two numbers before 00 which are one odd/one even
2B. The first two odd numbers are the first 2 odd numbers of the lower and middle dozen (1,13).
The first two even numbers are the last two even numbers of the upper and middle dozen (36,24)
The second two odd numbers are the second 2 odd numbers in the lower and middle dozens (3, 15)
The second two even numbers are the next to last two even numbers in the upper and middle dozens (34,22)
The third two odd numbers are the third 2 odd numbers in the lower and and middle dozens (5,17)
The third two even numbers are the 3rd to last two even numbers in the upper and middle dozen (32,20)
The fourth two odd numbers are the 4th and 6th odd numbers from the lower dozen (7,11)
The fourth two even numbers are the fourth to last and sixth to last two numbers from the upper dozen (30,26)
The last two numbers are fifth odd number of the lower dozen and the 5th to last even number of the upper dozen (9,28)
3A. Pattern is same for right side of the wheel except even/odd numbers instead of odd/even numbers
Hey! To my eye it appears there's really something to this! Were there some 38 spoke carriage wheels around on the streets of Paris in 17th century France?Quote: megapixelsI think they're placed the same way you'd tighten lug nuts on a 38 lug wheel?
Quote: DrawingDeadHey! To my eye it appears there's really something to this! Were there some 38 spoke carriage wheels around on the streets of Paris in 17th century France?
The original roulette wheel has no
zero, just 36 pockets.
Quote: EvenBobThe original roulette wheel has no
zero, just 36 pockets.
Zeroes aren't needed. Just short pay winners.
Hmmm. Maybe all the more practical for a 17th century carriage wheel. But not so much for paying the kerosene bill in a Parisian casino without some arithmetic monkeying.Quote: EvenBob...<SNIP>... just 36 pockets.
How do you feasibly pay a red or black winner? At 36 to 37?Quote: IbeatyouracesZeroes aren't needed. Just short pay winners.
Even with 1 or 2 zeroes on the wheel, you’d be surprised how many people think they have a 50% chance of winning a red or black bet.
Quote: megapixelsI think they're placed the same way you'd tighten lug nuts on a 38 lug wheel?
This makes some sense. When putting on a spare tire I have always just worked my around the wheel, tightening the lug nuts one after another around the circle, but I was probably doing it wrong.
Quote: Ace2How do you feasibly pay a red or black winner? At 36 to 37?
Even with 1 or 2 zeroes on the wheel, you’d be surprised how many people think they have a 50% chance of winning a red or black bet.
Commission
Two consecutive numbers are often 11 to 18 positions apart on the wheel, but that isn't saying much. There are also many exceptions, like the 28 and 29 are only two positions apart.
Quote: Ace2How do you feasibly pay a red or black winner? At 36 to 37?
Even with 1 or 2 zeroes on the wheel, you’d be surprised how many people think they have a 50% chance of winning a red or black bet.
Thats why the really smart roullete players will tell you they bet on black/red AND green. Thus negating the house edge 😉
Quote: WizardThis makes some sense. When putting on a spare tire I have always just worked my around the wheel, tightening the lug nuts one after another around the circle, but I was probably doing it wrong.
Yes, that is incorrect. It matters not where you start, but you tighten one most way then jump across and do that one halfway, then keep repeating, tightening the whole way the second time on each lug.
Unless you have a LeCar.
Quote: WizardI'm trying to find a pattern in the single-zero wheel, but am coming up with very little.
In the wheel pictured a few posts back,
the R/B and H/L are staggered around
the wheel, O/E seems to be ignored. I
still say this is to placate customers
that they will get a 'fair' spin, even
though it matters not where the numbers
are placed on the wheel, the outcome
will still be random.
BBT that Wiz has on the other forum.
Really cracks me up because it's almost
true.
If the croupier COULD target a section, it would be easy to bet that section if the felt had a racetrack.Quote: AZDuffmanIMHO, it also makes it impossible to have a croupier control where the ball might land. While hitting a single number anywhere beyond random would be impossible, if the wheel is spun at a near constant speed a skilled person could probably hit a section of numbers with lots of practice. Yes, lots and lots, and not everyone, But if someone could do it and got a team they could trust, said team could spread bets over the area of numbers to grind out some wins.
On an unrelated note, what’s the sequence on a 000 table?
Quote: DJTeddyBearIf the croupier COULD target a section, it would be easy to bet that section if the felt had a racetrack.
Racetrack?
How are wheels spun? IIRC I was told they are so balanced they keep spinning and spinning. That would mean the RPM is not constant. But if RPM *is* constant then I say a person with dexterity could be sure the ball goes around about the same number of times, most times. With practice and calculation you would just need figure where you want to release then use the same force. Say you release as 00 goes by your hand.
So this does not turn into a "thing" (e.g.: dice control for the 53rd time), I am not saying it would be easy and not even saying it would work. I am saying that staggering the numbers makes it NOT possible.
Quote:On an unrelated note, what’s the sequence on a 000 table?
I think I will not touch that one on general principle.
Quote: AZDuffmanRacetrack?
How are wheels spun? IIRC I was told they are so balanced they keep spinning and spinning. That would mean the RPM is not constant. But if RPM *is* constant then I say a person with dexterity could be sure the ball goes around about the same number of times, most times. With practice and calculation you would just need figure where you want to release then use the same force. Say you release as 00 goes by your hand.
So this does not turn into a "thing" (e.g.: dice control for the 53rd time), I am not saying it would be easy and not even saying it would work. I am saying that staggering the numbers makes it NOT possible.
I think I will not touch that one on general principle.
I think if both wheel and ball could be kept consistent there is that remote possibility however that does not take into account the diamond struts
Quote: darkozI think if both wheel and ball could be kept consistent there is that remote possibility however that does not take into account the diamond struts
I agree, and they are there to add to randomness. But I am talking a grind scam. We discussed it at the very first WOV-East (unnumbered to the current series) and dice control where if you could do it and just make the 7 fall from 1/6 to 1/7 then the house edge flips to your side.
I don't know the roulette math as well, but lets imagine the croupier could hit even 1/3 of the wheel just twice as often as random. Do we have a player edge?
Not the same as dice control as you need a reliable crew and might even need a Pit Boss to be in on it to look the other way. But I am one of those honest people with the mind of a criminal in some ways, looking for how an edge could happen.
Yes, 89.5 %Quote: AZDuffman
I don't know the roulette math as well, but lets imagine the croupier could hit even 1/3 of the wheel just twice as often as random. Do we have a player edge?.
Quote: TigerWuWhat's the pattern on the new triple 0 wheels?
The three zeros are next to each other. I assume it otherwise follows the single-zero order, but am not sure.
The halves to the left and right of the zero are perfectly balanced... 333 each.
Looking at 1-36 in sequential order, for 11-28 evens go to the right side and odds to the left. This is reversed for 29-10.
On the right half all reds are high and all blacks are low. Opposite for the left.
Starting at 1 going clockwise and separating the wheel into thirds, there are 4 low numbers, 4 mids and 4 highs in each third.
Not surprisingly, the thirds are pretty well balanced. Totaling the numbers in each you get 236, 204 and 226.
Normally lows, mids and highs alternate. There are only a few exceptions where 2 numbers from the same third are adjacent.
Using the above rules, and keeping each third at 222 +/- 20, I think you’ll come up with something quite close to the actual layout.
Quote: WizardThe three zeros are next to each other. I assume it otherwise follows the single-zero order, but am not sure.
That is correct. And some casinos the 000 spot says the casino name or symbol instead of 000
I’ve seen a few online triple zero wheels where the zeroes are spread out
Quote: michael99000I’ve seen a few online triple zero wheels where the zeroes are spread out
Where did you see them?
At the Venetian
"Venetian has a new game on its casino floor. It is called “Sands Roulette.” The installation of the game was first reported by Michael Shackleford at the Wizard of Vegas forum. Sands Roulette has three zeros on the wheel and felt. All other roulette tables in Las Vegas have one or two zeros. The payout for each Sands Roulette wager is the same as it would be at a double zero table."
Quote: WizardWhere did you see them?
It’s a game called Triple Bonus Spin Roullete , made by IGT software. It’s available at a few online casinos I’ve seen
It has 3 green zero spaces , spread out on the wheel , as well as a yellow bonus space marked “B”.
- The yellow B space is 33% larger than the other 39 spaces
Here is the rule with that yellow space:
When the ball lands in the wider yellow well all of your bets stand and you are qualified for a free spin in the Triple Bonus round. The Roulette wheel is replaced with a new version containing three totally independent rings or wheels within a wheel. The ball falls into a slot-well of the inner ring, then the two remaining wheels come to rest. The numbers on the outer rings that align with where the ball fell on the inner ring determine your 3 bonus numbers one number for each wheel.
Bonus bets are as follows and obvious on the table: Straight, Split, Trio, and Quad Bonus Bets.
Note: I read somewhere else that this game returns 98.12%
Quote: IbeatyouracesZeroes aren't needed. Just short pay winners.
Or keep the zeros and shortpay the winnders:
