Power 8's
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9 members have voted
As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
The question for the poll is would you play Power 8'?
Quote: WizardI just wrote a new page on Power 8's, which is a baccarat side bet found in South Africa.
As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
The question for the poll is would you play Power 8'?
I don't see playing this. Way too volatile, with so much of the return depending on the Jackpots.
OTOH, I really like the WoO site re-design. It already feels easier to navigate, and the banner logo is really good.
Without information on the progressive part, I wouldn't have much to work with. I think you could sneeze and beat it, but I wouldn't be able to quantify that. This bet reminds me of Lucky Nines.Quote: HunterhillSeems like a bet that Eliot will want to analyze.
Quote: WizardI just wrote a new page on Power 8's, which is a baccarat side bet found in South Africa.
Thanks Mike for the Introduction of Power 8's.
Sorry for not be able to give any information on the progressive part, as it is CONFIDENTIAL.
PS. If anyone is coming to ICE, London 2016.
I will be at TCS-JohnHuxley Booth (S6-250) showing a few Progressive games and at my PST Join-booth (S6-242) showing 5 New Table Games.
Progressives usually fix the bet by the player. Otherwise they punish those who make larger wagers. The last thing you want to do is reduce the RTP to a player who bets more. So, what is the fixed bet on this wager? For example, the progressives on carnival games cost $1.Quote: MrCasinoGamesSorry for not be able to give any information on the progressive part, as it is CONFIDENTIAL.
Interblock learned their lesson very quickly when they offered Lucky Nines. They ended up offering it from CSM's only. I still can't imagine how bets like this one are created, let alone marketed.
Quote: teliotProgressives usually fix the bet by the player. Otherwise they punish those who make larger wagers. The last thing you want to do is reduce the RTP to a player who bets more. So, what is the fixed bet on this wager? For example, the progressives on carnival games cost $1.
Interblock learned their lesson very quickly when they offered Lucky Nines. They ended up offering it from CSM's only. I still can't imagine how bets like this one are created, let alone marketed.
Yes teliot, Power 8s is a Progressive-bet, it is a fix unit bet per player, and as you say (For example, the progressives on carnival games cost $1).
The return per player is very dependent on the number of other players making the side bet, due to jackpot sharing.
It is not a Side-bet like Interblock's Lucky Nines.
PS. We have 4 more Baccarat Progressive-Games, 2 of them will be coming out in 2016.
Also coming out in 2016 is my new Casino Hold'em® with a New Progressive-bet (Casino Hold'em® Plus).
True. But at $1 per hand, why would the casino waste its time? On a typical baccarat table, there is a lot more t-win available by speeding up the game.Quote: WizardI think what Stephen is trying to say is that at just $1, even if the bet is positive, no AP would waste his time with it.
Quote: teliotTrue. But at $1 per hand, why would the casino waste its time? On a typical baccarat table, there is a lot more t-win available by speeding up the game.
Dear teliot,
It is just like any other progressive games out there eg. Poker-progressive, BJ-progressive (777 BJ-progressive) (4-Aces BJ-progressive)...
It is $1 per player (not $1 per hand/round) there are 9 Players at the table at a house edge of 20%+ (no 5% or lower), and the house can always set it at $2, $5 or higher per player.
Quote: teliotTrue. But at $1 per hand, why would the casino waste its time? On a typical baccarat table, there is a lot more t-win available by speeding up the game.
There is no shortage of other $1 progressives, with the red lights, here in Vegas.
Let's assume 60 hands per hour, an average of 3 players make the bet, and a house edge of 20%. That is $36/hour. These $1 progressives usually have a very low hit frequency, so I think the decrease in game speed is negligible.
Quote: WizardThere is no shortage of other $1 progressives, with the red lights, here in Vegas.
Let's assume 60 hands per hour, an average of 3 players make the bet, and a house edge of 20%. That is $36/hour. These $1 progressives usually have a very low hit frequency, so I think the decrease in game speed is negligible.
Red light bets:
1. Players take time decide to make the bets.
2. The dealer has to check if anyone who hasn't made the bet wants to make it.
3. The dealer must collect the $1 chips and put them in the box.
4. If a large jackpot hits, there can be a great deal of time spent paying it out.
5. Any time the bet pays out there it takes time away from the main game to pay it.
6. The red lights are equipment that fails and needs maintenance.
7. Players forever need $1 chip changes.
8. The rack needs fills of $1 chips.
9. The $1 bets the players make on the red circles represent tips the dealer is not getting.
10. The expense associated with the decrease in game pace is extreme if there is large betting at the table.
All of this for 20 cents.
Quote: teliotRed light bets:
1. Players take time decide to make the bets.
2. The dealer has to check if anyone who hasn't made the bet wants to make it.
3. The dealer must collect the $1 chips and put them in the box.
4. If a large jackpot hits, there can be a great deal of time spent paying it out.
5. Any time the bet pays out there it takes time away from the main game to pay it.
6. The red lights are equipment that fails and needs maintenance.
7. Players forever need $1 chip changes.
8. The rack needs fills of $1 chips.
9. The $1 bets the players make on the red circles represent tips the dealer is not getting.
10. The expense associated with the decrease in game pace is extreme if there is large betting at the table.
All of this for 20 cents.
I agree. Let's get rid of ALL SIDE BETS!! They're costing us money too and we don't play them.
I will ask nicely, please stop trolling me.Quote: IbeatyouracesI agree. Let's get rid of ALL SIDE BETS!! They're costing us money too and we don't play them.
Quote: teliotRed light bets:
1. Players take time decide to make the bets.
2. The dealer has to check if anyone who hasn't made the bet wants to make it.
3. The dealer must collect the $1 chips and put them in the box.
4. If a large jackpot hits, there can be a great deal of time spent paying it out.
5. Any time the bet pays out there it takes time away from the main game to pay it.
6. The red lights are equipment that fails and needs maintenance.
7. Players forever need $1 chip changes.
8. The rack needs fills of $1 chips.
9. The $1 bets the players make on the red circles represent tips the dealer is not getting.
10. The expense associated with the decrease in game pace is extreme if there is large betting at the table.
All of this for 20 cents.
Not taking sides here, but these are all valid comments and concerns. All of these are issues at a LIR table.
Quote: teliotI will ask nicely, please stop trolling me.
That wasn't the intent and would've said it to anyone. I apologize if you thought of it that way.
But basically, I agree with you about some of these bets on the grounds you mentioned. A few places keep a separate marker on the red light indicators and the players only need place the $1 chip on top of that.
Quote: teliotRed light bets:
Very good points. I'll let you have the last word on that.
Add to it (in case Lucky 8 is a red-light bet), (11) ... beatable by advantage play and (12) ... lease fee.Quote: WizardVery good points. I'll let you have the last word on that.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesQuote: WizardI just wrote a new page on Power 8's, which is a baccarat side bet found in South Africa.
Thanks Mike for the Introduction of Power 8's.
Sorry for not be able to give any information on the progressive part, as it is CONFIDENTIAL.
PS. If anyone is coming to ICE, London 2016.
I will be at TCS-JohnHuxley Booth (S6-250) showing a few Progressive games and at my PST Join-booth (S6-242) showing 5 New Table Games.
Quote: teliotred-light bet ... lease fee.
Dear teliot,
Thanks for your input.
Yes, Power 8s Baccarat is a red-light bet (Progressive-bet) and the casino do pay lease fee.
I have been making Progressive-Games for TCS for over 10 years.
First Progressive-Games I done was (Casino Hold'em Progressive 5/7®) and a new Blackjack-Progressive (Block Pro® Blackjack-Progressive) back in 2003 (when Caribbean Stud Progressive was popular), both are still play in South Africa. At the same time in Russia I introduced Casino Hold'em® link up with Caribbean Stud to the same Jackpot (Useing the Player's first 5-cards) It is still being use at on-line casinos (Caribbean Hold'em™) power by RTG, eg. Bovoda/Bodog.
3 Years ago we added (Raise'em® Poker Plus) Poker-Progressive and last year we added (Power 8's) Baccarat-Progressive in South Africa and it is doing very well. In total we have over 100 Progressive-Tables installed in South Africa today.
We now have 2 New Baccarat-Progressive Games and the New Hold'em-Progressive (Casino Hold'em® Plus) coming out in 2016 and have Casinos order more new Progressive-Games.
I will continue making Progressive-Games, If that is what the Casinos wants (Casinos and Players Loves Progressive-bets in South Africa).
PS. AP would not waste their time with the Power 8's Baccarat-Progressive (red-light bet).
Quote: teliotRed light bets:
1. Players take time decide to make the bets.
2. The dealer has to check if anyone who hasn't made the bet wants to make it.
3. The dealer must collect the $1 chips and put them in the box.
4. If a large jackpot hits, there can be a great deal of time spent paying it out.
5. Any time the bet pays out there it takes time away from the main game to pay it.
6. The red lights are equipment that fails and needs maintenance.
7. Players forever need $1 chip changes.
8. The rack needs fills of $1 chips.
9. The $1 bets the players make on the red circles represent tips the dealer is not getting.
10. The expense associated with the decrease in game pace is extreme if there is large betting at the table.
All of this for 20 cents.
Very good points.
Try telling this to: Ballytech (Shuffle Master), DEQ, Galaxy Gaming and others.
See List of Progressive Games:
Ballytech (Shuffle Master) (Bring the life-changing progressive jackpot experience of the slot floor to your table games pit with our exciting progressive offerings.)
DEQ (Wide Area Progressive System enables your casino to link an unlimited amount of your poker derivatives.)
Galaxy Gaming (Enhance your play with “real-time” action with our Bonus Jackpot System!)
Quote: MrCasinoGamesSee List of Progressive Games:
Ballytech (Shuffle Master) (Bring the life-changing progressive jackpot experience of the slot floor to your table games pit with our exciting progressive offerings.)
DEQ (Wide Area Progressive System enables your casino to link an unlimited amount of your poker derivatives.)
Galaxy Gaming (Enhance your play with “real-time” action with our Bonus Jackpot System!)
How many of these are on baccarat?
Quote: teliotQuote: MrCasinoGamesSee List of Progressive Games:
Ballytech (Shuffle Master) (Bring the life-changing progressive jackpot experience of the slot floor to your table games pit with our exciting progressive offerings.)
DEQ (Wide Area Progressive System enables your casino to link an unlimited amount of your poker derivatives.)
Galaxy Gaming (Enhance your play with “real-time” action with our Bonus Jackpot System!)
How many of these are on baccarat?
Your 10 points was on the Red light bets (Progressive-bets).
How many of these are on baccarat? Has nothing to do with it.
The whole point is that red light bets have lots of costs that reduce the incremental profit they create. Many baccarat tables have very high limits and lots of baccarat players make very large wagers. In other games, where the table limits are usually pretty low and players usually play near the table minimum, the wagers might actually create a bit of incremental revenue. But, in baccarat, the sky is the limit for wagers, so the cost equation is squarely against a red light bet on most tables. Of course, if the red-light bet is only allowed on a low-limit game (or a low-roller casino), it might generate a bit of profit. The profitability issue rests on the ratio of the red-light t-win per bet to the table average baccarat bet.Quote: MrCasinoGamesHow many of these are on baccarat? Has nothing to do with it.
Quote: teliotThe whole point is that red light bets have lots of costs that reduce the incremental profit they create. Many baccarat tables have very high limits and lots of baccarat players make very large wagers. In other games, where the table limits are usually pretty low and players usually play near the table minimum, the wagers might actually create a bit of incremental revenue. But, in baccarat, the sky is the limit for wagers, so the cost equation is squarely against a red light bet on most tables. Of course, if the red-light bet is only allowed on a low-limit game (or a low-roller casino), it might generate a bit of profit. The profitability issue rests on the ratio of the red-light t-win per bet to the table average baccarat bet.
Dear teliot,
Thanks for the clarification.
Again, Thanks for your input.
Quote: WizardI just wrote a new page on Power 8's, which is a baccarat side bet found in South Africa.
As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
Corrections,
Note: All payouts are “for 1”, as the original wager is not returned.
Quote: WizardVery good points.
The facts remained the same:
There is no shortage of other $1 progressives, with the red lights, here in Vegas.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesNote: All payouts are “for 1”, as the original wager is not returned.
Are you sure? The literature from TCS Johh Huxley says "to."
Quote: WizardAre you sure? The literature from TCS Johh Huxley says "to."
Yes, I am sure.
TCS make a typo in the literature.
Thanks Mike and have a Happy New Year.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesYes, I am sure.
Thanks Mike and have a Happy New Year.
Thanks! Happy 2016 to you too!
Quote: WizardofnothingIn reality- even when it is an ap situation- I'm amazed at how much some small side bets slow down the game-
Now that I think about it, I've seen those red lights malfunction lots of times. Put a chip on it and it just won't light up. Probably money to be made if somebody could create one that worked properly.
Quote: WizardNow that I think about it, I've seen those red lights malfunction lots of times. Put a chip on it and it just won't light up. Probably money to be made if somebody could create one that worked properly.
There's an easy fix. Use one of the small "on/off" buttons from a craps table or something similar to keep the light lit up. All the player has to do is add the $1 chip on top of it. And if the player wishes to quit betting on it, just remove the button.
Quote: teliotThe whole point is that red light bets have lots of costs that reduce the incremental profit they create. Many baccarat tables have very high limits and lots of baccarat players make very large wagers. In other games, where the table limits are usually pretty low and players usually play near the table minimum, the wagers might actually create a bit of incremental revenue. But, in baccarat, the sky is the limit for wagers, so the cost equation is squarely against a red light bet on most tables. Of course, if the red-light bet is only allowed on a low-limit game (or a low-roller casino), it might generate a bit of profit. The profitability issue rests on the ratio of the red-light t-win per bet to the table average baccarat bet.
In South Africa, We normally use the R25-bet ($1.6) or the R10-bet ($.64) set-up, but casinos can choose to use the R50-bet ($3.2) set-up or any other set-ups, if they want.
PS. The House Edge varies depending on the Progressive-bet size, the casino and the government's approval, eg. the House-edge set-up for the R10-bet ($.64) is higher then the set-up for R50-bet ($3.2).
To Me, as one of the successful Casino Games Inventor with 10 different Table-Games that are still being play in casinos today (None in US), I am happy:
The game works, Player like playing it, Casino want it, and I get pay lease fee.
My 10 Casino Table Games that are still play in casinos today:
Casino Hold'em® ©2000.
Raise'em® Poker Plus ©2012.
Power 8's™ Baccarat-Progressive ©2014.
Block Pro® Blackjack-Progressive ©2003.
Lucky-Draw Baccarat® ©2010.
Blackjack Block Bonus® ©2003.
Roulette Link-bets® ©2010.
Caribbean Hold'em™ ©2003.
Casino Holdem Progressive 5/7® ©2003.
Casino Omaha™ ©2003.
One thought I had was if the progressive really is a small bet related to the main Player/Banker wagers, I bet participation percentage is very high. I can't see too many $100+ main bet players not throwing $1-$5 (whatever the fixed amout is) on the progressive every hand as well.
And if a property has 80%+ participation on a 15-20% HE side bet, they are very unlikely to believe they are not making more money by having the bet on the table. The progressive software will tell them this is the case and any fluctuation in main game win, unless dramatic, will be passed off as variance.
Finally, isn't the pace of baccarat fairly slow anyway? I haven't been to Macau or other international locations to watch a game player, but in the US, baccarat dealers seem to sit and wait while players study their charts and the hand history screen for 60+ secs before deciding to bet Player or Banker.
Bottom line is it sounds like the game is in play, getting action and Stephen is getting his lease payment...that is where the rubber meets the road in game development!!
Quote: Paradigm...Finally, isn't the pace of baccarat fairly slow anyway? I haven't been to Macau or other international locations to watch a game player, but in the US, baccarat dealers seem to sit and wait while players study their charts and the hand history screen for 60+ secs before deciding to bet Player or Banker.
Exactly!! Baccarat, no matter what type, is NOT the very fast 100+ decisions per hour that it used to be. It's a hell of a lot slower than any blackjack game these days.
Quote: ParadigmBottom line is it sounds like the game is in play, getting action and Stephen is getting his lease payment...that is where the rubber meets the road in game development!!
Thanks Paradigm,
TCS-JohnHuxley GFL Bonusing has proved extremely popular. With over 130 tables installed worldwide.
As the product has rolled out, two games in particular have demonstrated their exceptional match with GFL Bonusing.
These two games, which were highlighted at the ICE 2015 show in February, are Raise'em® Poker Plus and Baccarat Power® 8's.
PS. If anyone coming to ICE this year (2016) please give me a visit at TCS-JohnHuxley Booth S6-250.
I will be showing Casino Holdem® Plus (New Poker-Progressive) and Baccarat Power®8s (Baccarat-Progressive) there.
Also in Abbiati Booth (S5-230) showing 3-Card Second-Hand® Poker and at my Join-Booth PST (S5-242) showing 8 New Table games.
(Read More on Mr Casino Games® TCS Exclusive (Rease'em® Poker-Progressive) and (Baccarat Power® 8s Progressive).
Quote: WizardI just wrote a new page on Power 8's, which is a baccarat side bet found in South Africa.
As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
The question for the poll is would you play Power 8's?
Baccarat Power® 8's / Punto Rapid 8's™ is now play in the UK (First Baccarat-Progressive in South-Africa and UK) see links below.
Baccarat Power® 8's Progressive-game will be in TCS-Johnhuxley Booth (S6-250) at ICE-2017, London, UK.
A Progressive-bet offered for Baccarat, which can be played in addition to an initial wager on either Player or Banker.
The Baccarat Power® 8's (Progressive-bet) is a based on the number of eights in the Player's and Banker's hand.
Baccarat Power® 8's (Punto Rapid 8's™). Play in UK.
Baccarat Power® 8's (Punto Rapid 8's™). Play in South-Africa.
Baccarat Power® 8's (Punto Rapid 8's™). TCS-Johnhuxley.
Baccarat Power® 8's (Punto Rapid 8's™). New Table Games.
Baccarat Power® 8's (Punto Rapid 8's™). Wizard of Odds.
Quote: ParadigmI think there are good points being made on each side if the discussion. There are time & motion issues to address, but if players are playing the progressive, properties will figure out if those issues are sufficient to remove the game.
One thought I had was if the progressive really is a small bet related to the main Player/Banker wagers, I bet participation percentage is very high. I can't see too many $100+ main bet players not throwing $1-$5 (whatever the fixed amout is) on the progressive every hand as well.
And if a property has 80%+ participation on a 15-20% HE side bet, they are very unlikely to believe they are not making more money by having the bet on the table. The progressive software will tell them this is the case and any fluctuation in main game win, unless dramatic, will be passed off as variance.
Finally, isn't the pace of baccarat fairly slow anyway? I haven't been to Macau or other international locations to watch a game player, but in the US, baccarat dealers seem to sit and wait while players study their charts and the hand history screen for 60+ secs before deciding to bet Player or Banker.
Bottom line is it sounds like the game is in play, getting action and Stephen is getting his lease payment...that is where the rubber meets the road in game development!!
Dan (Paigiwdan) has a very good chapter on Progressive in his book.
In addition, casinos make money on multiplications. If for each player each hand loses 20 cents, casino will make:
$0.20 /player/hand * 3 player in average/table * 50 hands/hr * 20 hr/day * 30 days/ month * 12 month / year
= $216,000/year/ table .
Linking 5 or more tables for progressive, the profit will be or over millions, at no risk. Not bad at all.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesAlso coming out in 2016 is my new Casino Hold'em® with a New Progressive-bet (Casino Hold'em® Plus).
Casino Hold'em® Plus™ with and without Mystery-Jackpot.
Math at Wizard of Odds (www.CasinoHoldemPlus.com). http://bit.ly/2FLcN4i
Casino Hold'em® Progressive Jackpot Side-Bet (Casino Hold'em® Plus™)
Introduction
Casino Hold'em® Progressive Jackpot Side Bet
The Progressive is an optional side bet in Casino Hold'em®.
Wins are based on the player's original two cards and the three-card flop. The same math could be applied to any five random cards.
There are four pay tables. In all of them, wins are on a "for one" basis. In the event of a flush or straight, the win is the amount in the "seed" column, although it is better described as a flat win. Pay tables 3 and 4 involve a Mystery Jackpot. I don't know much about it except the total value to the player, which the game owner kindly told me.
The overall return can be found in the lower right cell of each table. http://bit.ly/2FLcN4i
