Spanish21
Spanish21
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January 28th, 2014 at 10:28:35 AM permalink
My question is whether standard Spanish 21 rules pay out the 6-7-8 bonus where the 6-7-8 was the result of a split (e.g., player is dealt 8-8, splits the 8s, is dealt a 6 on the first 8, and hits a 7 for a 21).

As for the back story, I just came back from Atlantic City for the weekend. Playing Spanish 21 at the Trop, the above example scenario happened (actually, he hit 6-7-8 on both of his split 8s, and one set was suited). The dealer went to pay out the 6-7-8 bonuses for both hands, and then another dealer (not the pit boss but another dealer who was about to start a shift) came over and said "No, you don't get 6-7-8 bonuses after a split." We looked down at the table, where the 6-7-8 bonus rules are written down. The table specifically reads that those bonuses do not pay out on doubled hands, but it does not say anything about split hands. In contrast, the Super Bonus (7-7-7 suited against a dealer 7) specifically says it won't pay out on split or doubled hands. So, we argue a bit with the dealer, but he won't give in. The pit boss comes over, and agrees with the dealer, but also seems to acknowledge there is a problem with how it is written on the table. She pulls out the rule card they have back in the pit, but that apparently isn't helpful because she puts that away. She gets on the phone, asks other dealers, even asks other players at another table, and most seem to agree that the bonus isn't paid on split hands. But, she acknowledged it's at least ambiguous and eventually told the dealer to pay out the money. The whole thing got me wondering, though, what is the correct rule?

So, I look on wizardofodds.com, and he says: "A 6-7-8 or 7-7-7 of mixed suits pays 3 to 2, of the same suit pays 2 to 1, and of spades pays 3 to 1. These bonuses usually do not pay after doubling or splitting, but some casinos allow it."

Anyone else run into this issue? I am wondering what the standard rule is. Does anyone know of casinos that definitely do pay out the 6-7-8 bonus on split hands? Any thoughts on whether it was correct to pay it out at the Trop, where the rules said no bonus for doubled hands but was silent as to split hands?
sabre
sabre
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January 28th, 2014 at 10:36:23 AM permalink
The standard rule is that 6-7-8 and 5+ card 21 bonuses apply to split hands as long as the split hand was not doubled. Some casinos may have their own house rules. For example, Mohegan Sun in CT has explicit wording on the felt stating that split hands aren't paid these bonuses.

I've had floor people tell me adamantly that split hands don't qualify for these bonuses. Each time though, I was eventually paid after complaining up the chain of command.
ChesterDog
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January 28th, 2014 at 11:13:09 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

...Each time though, I was eventually paid after complaining up the chain of command.



I do that too. I met Raymond Kot, a shift manager in Taj, doing that.

The felt says, "not paid on doubled hands." Some dealers will say that a split hand is a "doubled hand." To avoid confusion, the felt should have been designed to say, "not paid on doubled-down hands."

You can be prepared for your argument by printing out NJ's rules for Spanish 21.

Here's the pertinent part:
Quote: NJ


(f) Notwithstanding the provisions of (e) above, a casino licensee shall pay the following payout odds for winning wagers made in accordance with (a) above unless the player has doubled down, in which case all of the following wagers shall only be paid at odds of 1 to 1:
1. Three cards consisting of the 6, 7 and 8 of mixed suits shall be paid at odds of 3 to 2;...

Spanish21
Spanish21
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January 28th, 2014 at 11:14:38 AM permalink
Thanks Sabre. That sounds right to me. If there was explicit wording on the table that split hands don't get the bonus, it would have been totally different, of course. I just wonder why the Wizard's rules say that split hands usually do NOT get the 6-7-8 bonus (but sometimes do), rather than the other way around.

Have you been to any casino where this was paid out without a fuss?
dwheatley
dwheatley
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January 28th, 2014 at 11:17:07 AM permalink
All Ontario casinos pay on split hands.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
Spanish21
Spanish21
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January 28th, 2014 at 11:26:11 AM permalink
chesterdog, this is perfect. thank you very much.
danscotto
danscotto
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July 23rd, 2014 at 7:51:07 PM permalink
I came on to ask about this - to find out what the difference in house edge is if the casino doesn't pay bonuses on splits.

I dealt this game in the early 2000s in Northern California (Eureka, Humboldt County area) and when we got the game, the Spanish 21 creators came to train us. Bonuses are absolutely supposed to be paid on split hands except for the Super Bonus as it says on the table flyer. Doubling voids bonuses - doubling and splitting voids the Super Bonus. But now I just started dealing about 200 miles closer to San Francisco, and the casino doesn't pay the bonuses after a split. I questioned several floor people and they seemed confused when I showed them the table flyer, but one of them said he looked it up in our manual and it said that bonuses are not paid on splits. I think that whoever wrote our manual made a mistake.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
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July 23rd, 2014 at 8:56:54 PM permalink
Quote: danscotto

I came on to ask about this - to find out what the difference in house edge is if the casino doesn't pay bonuses on splits.

I dealt this game in the early 2000s in Northern California (Eureka, Humboldt County area) and when we got the game, the Spanish 21 creators came to train us. Bonuses are absolutely supposed to be paid on split hands except for the Super Bonus as it says on the table flyer. Doubling voids bonuses - doubling and splitting voids the Super Bonus. But now I just started dealing about 200 miles closer to San Francisco, and the casino doesn't pay the bonuses after a split. I questioned several floor people and they seemed confused when I showed them the table flyer, but one of them said he looked it up in our manual and it said that bonuses are not paid on splits. I think that whoever wrote our manual made a mistake.



Hi, Dan.

You don't mention having checked the WoO website, but the Wiz says a couple of things about splitting and bonuses:

9.A five-card 21 pays 3 to 2, a six-card 21 pays 2 to 1, a seven or more card 21 pays 3 to 1. Bonus not honored after doubling or splitting.
10.A 6-7-8 or 7-7-7 of mixed suits pays 3 to 2, of the same suit pays 2 to 1, and of spades pays 3 to 1. These bonuses usually do not pay after doubling or splitting, but some casinos allow it.
11.Suited 7-7-7 when the dealer has a seven face up pays $1000 for bets of $5-$24 and $5000 for bets of $25 or over. In addition, all other players receive a $50 "envy bonus." This bonus does not pay after doubling or splitting.


Ace and 10 after splitting aces pays 3 to 2: I have an unconfirmed report that at at one time the Meskaki casino in central Iowa paid 3 to 2 on an ace and 10 after splitting aces. I have another unconfirmed report that as of Aug. 2010 they removed the Spanish 21 table completely. According to my calculations this lowers the house edge by 0.16%. Otherwise they hit a soft 17 and no redoubling, for an overall house edge of 0.60%.


The full page on Spanish 21 can be found here
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Paigowdan
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July 23rd, 2014 at 9:01:44 PM permalink
This is the problem with the game: it is not clean and elegant.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
24Bingo
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July 23rd, 2014 at 9:09:16 PM permalink
At FX and TR, they do. I've actually had to get the floor to confirm it at TR, with a dealer who had taken "like a blackjack" too literally ("no one pays blackjack after a split!"). I've never had to go that far at FX, so I don't know, maybe they've just been botching it. At MS, they don't, and it's even written into the felt. (This is also the place where you can't hit split aces.)

I'd imagine it can't make much of a difference, as rare as these bonuses are... still, nearly all the composition-based exceptions on the Wizard's table seem to be based mostly on these bonuses, so my guess would be they no longer apply, which is sort of a radical change, especially where doubling's concerned. I'd also like to know what difference it makes.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
ChesterDog
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July 23rd, 2014 at 9:20:01 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

...You don't mention having checked the WoO website, but the Wiz says a couple of things about splitting and bonuses:

9.A five-card 21 pays 3 to 2, a six-card 21 pays 2 to 1, a seven or more card 21 pays 3 to 1. Bonus not honored after doubling or splitting....



After the Wizard is informed of this statement on his Spanish 21 page, he will surely change it to read something like, "Although the Super Bonus is void after splitting or doubling-down, according to the rules the 6-7-8, 7-7-7, and multi-card bonuses are to be paid even after splitting."
danscotto
danscotto
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July 29th, 2014 at 12:34:33 AM permalink
Thanks for the responses. I'd still like a clear house edge for dealer stands on 17, re-double is allowed, bonuses are paid on splits vs. bonuses not paid on splits.
danscotto
danscotto
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July 29th, 2014 at 12:54:20 PM permalink
Well, I talked my shift manager into re-reading the paper on the table, and he agrees we should be paying the bonuses (except the Super Bonus) on splits. I'll see if it gets implemented.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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September 29th, 2014 at 8:34:32 PM permalink
Sorry for the he bump, but rather than start another thread, I'll put it here. Does anyone know what the difference in HE is between honoring 678, 777 and 5+ hands after splitting, and not honoring them?
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
ChesterDog
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March 16th, 2016 at 2:56:57 PM permalink
Does Morongo have Spanish 21 allowing redouble?

I have never played redouble Spanish 21--does the dealer place the double-down card as they do in blackjack and regular Spanish 21 (perpendicular to the other cards)?
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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March 16th, 2016 at 4:19:50 PM permalink
According to cbjn Morongo is not redouble.
As far as card placement I have never played ddd version either.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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March 18th, 2016 at 4:54:01 PM permalink
Quote: ChesterDog

Does Morongo have Spanish 21 allowing redouble?

I have never played redouble Spanish 21--does the dealer place the double-down card as they do in blackjack and regular Spanish 21 (perpendicular to the other cards)?



Card placement will vary from casino to casino. Where I work, the double down card is sideways as normal, and the double-double and triple-double cards are also delivered sideways.

I have seen other casinos where the double will be delivered sideways, the double-double will be delivered vertically, and the triple-double will be delivered sideways. I have also seen casinos that deliver all double downs vertically, as if they were just hit cards.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
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