How to Win at Roulette by Arnold Snyder
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:12:18 AM
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One of the biggest and most respected names in gambling is saying that roulette can be beaten, mostly by dealers who can steer the ball. Read it for yourself:
Part 1: How to Win at Roulette—Part I.
Part 2: How to Win at Roulette, Part II: Using Tells to Exploit Dealer Steering.
This could be the biggest debate in advantage gambling since influencing the dice in craps. Let me come out and say right from the start that I'm highly skeptical anybody can beat roulette, or any dealers can influence the outcome, on modern wheel under typical casino rules.
So, with the greatest of respect for Arnold Snyder, I have to say that I think he is wrong on this one. If any dealer out there claims he can steer the wheel, and is willing to show me, please PM me.
Part 1: How to Win at Roulette—Part I.
Part 2: How to Win at Roulette, Part II: Using Tells to Exploit Dealer Steering.
This could be the biggest debate in advantage gambling since influencing the dice in craps. Let me come out and say right from the start that I'm highly skeptical anybody can beat roulette, or any dealers can influence the outcome, on modern wheel under typical casino rules.
So, with the greatest of respect for Arnold Snyder, I have to say that I think he is wrong on this one. If any dealer out there claims he can steer the wheel, and is willing to show me, please PM me.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:15:43 AM
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I have heard from Wayne at the Silverton that steering the wheel is possible. I don't play roulette and don't care much.
Another person that I know who does not work and has a house payment makes money playing roulette. When he told me this, I thought to myself "you have got to be kidding."
It will be interesting to see the results on this thread. But double-zero is pretty huge hurdle to clear!!
Another person that I know who does not work and has a house payment makes money playing roulette. When he told me this, I thought to myself "you have got to be kidding."
It will be interesting to see the results on this thread. But double-zero is pretty huge hurdle to clear!!
aahigh.com
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:19:29 AM
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I'm sure it's possible to some degree. There are a lot of columns about "biased" dealers. The dealer can always check where the wheel is in a current moment of time before spinning the ball, and try to put a constant force on the ball to make it spin about the same amount every time. You can't predict the exact number of course, but you can predict with some accuracy (beating the HE maybe) that what a quarter or a half the ball will land on.
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:24:06 AM
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To me, what doesn't make sense is that the casinos have steering dealers standing around, just waiting to be found. It would be so easy for a steering dealer to have a friend come in and bet sections, the dealer steers the ball towards his numbers, and they split up the money later. The dealer could balance his game by making strangers lose. Funny how you never hear of this happening.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:26:59 AM
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It's not the dealer that makes it possible, it's the wheel. When a wheel has a dominant drop point, any dealer can look like an Olympic athlete.
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:27:20 AM
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I consulted my calendar. It's not April 1st. What gives?
"I don't have a gambling problem. I have a financial problem."
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:27:58 AM
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Quote: WizardFunny how you never hear of this happening.
Isn't that the point?
Rule 1 of Fight Club...
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:31:56 AM
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If there was a dealer doing this stuff with his or her friend, of course the one wouldn't shout about it on WoV!
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:32:35 AM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDIsn't that the point?
Rule 1 of Fight Club...
With every other major form of cheating and advantage play, there is always somebody looking to write a book or sell lessons on how to do it after he retires. Yet with steering dealers, much like skilled shooters in craps, you hear a lot of noise, but little actual numerical evidence it is possible.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:33:42 AM
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Wizard: Was I stupid to lose 3800€ in Roulette, and that was only one bet?!
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:38:14 AM
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I'm inclined to believe that it can be done. I have bet on exactly 4 spins on the roulette wheel since moving to Vegas.
One such bet, I bet everything except the 1, 00, and 27. I challenged the dealer to make me lose, and she did. She apologized profusely, but I said, "hey I asked for it!"
Another bet, I bet ONLY on 25, 17, and 34 and won. Same thing except I challenged the dealer to hit it for me.
I ABSOLUTELY do not currently believe it's possible, but I feel like I would like to believe it, if that makes any sense at all. But I know that some dealers and pit crews believe that it is. And I think that believing that it's possible is more fun to believe than feeling you have no control (just like craps shooters who believe without sufficient evidence, if they have more fun believing it, they will).
One such bet, I bet everything except the 1, 00, and 27. I challenged the dealer to make me lose, and she did. She apologized profusely, but I said, "hey I asked for it!"
Another bet, I bet ONLY on 25, 17, and 34 and won. Same thing except I challenged the dealer to hit it for me.
I ABSOLUTELY do not currently believe it's possible, but I feel like I would like to believe it, if that makes any sense at all. But I know that some dealers and pit crews believe that it is. And I think that believing that it's possible is more fun to believe than feeling you have no control (just like craps shooters who believe without sufficient evidence, if they have more fun believing it, they will).
aahigh.com
February 22nd, 2013 at 10:43:08 AM
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Quote: KeyserIt's not the dealer that makes it possible, it's the wheel. When a wheel has a dominant drop point, any dealer can look like an Olympic athlete.
This is true. I have seen for myself at a game protection seminar a number of working roulette computers, demoed by the creator, who has moved into game protection as a safer way of making money. All of these depend on Drop Zones. However new Roulette Wheels are designed with this in mind.
I know I have in the past experimented with spin control and documented my findings here. Im sure someone will dig it up.
[This space is intentionally left blank]
February 22nd, 2013 at 11:22:42 AM
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Quote: CroupierThis is true. I have seen for myself at a game protection seminar a number of working roulette computers, demoed by the creator, who has moved into game protection as a safer way of making money. All of these depend on Drop Zones. However new Roulette Wheels are designed with this in mind.
I know I have in the past experimented with spin control and documented my findings here. Im sure someone will dig it up.
here
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
February 22nd, 2013 at 11:25:08 AM
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You can win if you want. By Modern Talking!
February 22nd, 2013 at 11:29:00 AM
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According to the author Arnold Snyder....."The average dealer who can't or won't' steer goes though his work life stripping people of their money while giving them very little in return. It's depressing shameful work for any dealer with any feeling for other people..." Now that's some funny stuff.
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:00:16 PM
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Let's see if I got this right. A dealer can control sections where the ball will land. Yet he works for a casino, instead of quickly owning
one with his winnings. THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE ! ! !
one with his winnings. THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE ! ! !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:03:19 PM
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True. If croupier's could influence where the ball landed in the wheel he wouldn't be working minimum wage whining about how the players never tip him.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:03:49 PM
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Quote: WizardOne of the biggest and most respected names in gambling is saying that roulette can be beaten, mostly by dealers who can steer the ball.
Then he ought to have had the sense to have that work independently verified, etc, beforehand; preferably by others entirely outside the industry. Though, apparently, this is a seemingly rarer event than the thus proclaimed consistently beating of any of the casino games. No surprise there?
Anyway, personally, I am more concerned with my own actual accomplishments than with continuously gossiping and vexing about the proverbial grass on the other side of the fence.
Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. But those who confuse the two... they wind up on the internet.
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:10:43 PM
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In every decent casino they have strict rules which rule out the possibility of any "steering". It's not that they select the wheel position and the force put on the ball. Case closed!
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:11:18 PM
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well Buzzard if he owned a casino due to his ability to steer ball then he would be on the winning side of a shameful, depressing industry that seperates people from their money. Anybody that can steer the ball has life long obligation to help the players win. A selfless endevour that any pope would approve of.....Quote: BuzzardLet's see if I got this right. A dealer can control sections where the ball will land. Yet he works for a casino, instead of quickly owning
one with his winnings. THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE ! ! !
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:33:37 PM
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If a computer and laser can quickly determine a sector of possible outcomes, I believe that it is possible for a dealer, who gets paid to refine his skill for hours every day, to train his body to spin the wheel and shoot the ball in order to narrow the possible outcomes. Unlike Craps, where the variables on the table change from roll to roll (chips on the table), the Croupier has influence over all the variables that determine the outcome in roulette (spin direction, rpm, ball, ball speed). Like DI, I would label it "possible", but not "probable". It would be a neat demonstration / competition if someone were to offer a substantial prize for doing it a statistically significant number of times.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:37:46 PM
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Quote: treetopbuddywell Buzzard if he owned a casino due to his ability to steer ball then he would be on the winning side of a shameful, depressing industry that seperates people from their money. Anybody that can steer the ball has life long obligation to help the players win. A selfless endevour that any pope would approve of.....
I know of no industry that does not seperate people from their money, even religious and/or charitable industries.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:38:50 PM
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follow the moneyQuote: BuzzardI know of no industry that does not seperate people from their money, even religious and/or charitable industries.
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:40:41 PM
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Every time I do that I wind up associating with lawyers. Not sure I can stand that again !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:49:54 PM
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remember, steer the ball for the player so you may have a rewarding career.Quote: treetopbuddyAccording to the author Arnold Snyder....."The average dealer who can't or won't' steer goes though his work life stripping people of their money while giving them very little in return. It's depressing shameful work for any dealer with any feeling for other people..." Now that's some funny stuff.
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:51:23 PM
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I will never understand how this forum racked up such a large anti-gambling contingent.
As high as the house edge in roulette is, why would a casino owner want to cheat outright? Seems to me the business lost wouldn't be worth the edge gained. A dealer might want to, through a confederate, but I'm pretty sure that's actionable...
I'm reminded of Derren Brown's alleged ability to track the ball; I wish he'd submit to a controlled, repeated test.
As high as the house edge in roulette is, why would a casino owner want to cheat outright? Seems to me the business lost wouldn't be worth the edge gained. A dealer might want to, through a confederate, but I'm pretty sure that's actionable...
I'm reminded of Derren Brown's alleged ability to track the ball; I wish he'd submit to a controlled, repeated test.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
February 22nd, 2013 at 1:08:58 PM
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Maybe Arnold has been reading his own books lately, like Risk of Ruin !
The Ten Commandments of Stacy,
Fourth Person of the Blessed Quad
1. Don’t worship. God is not worthy of worship. No one is.
2. Forgive God for Her neglect and incompetence. She’s trying.
3. Remember that every day is as holy as every other day and every place is as holy as every other place. Get rid of the churches, temples, synagogues, mosques. They’re an insult to God.
4. Honor those worthy of honor, rarely your parents.
5. You were created killers. I’m sorry.
6. Thou shalt not commit fidelity. Sex is a sacrament. Fidelity violates your holy nature.
7. Ownership is theft. Thou shalt share.
8. Thou shalt not get on thy neighbor’s nerves.
9. It’s okay to covet thy neighbor’s wife, but only fuck her if she consents to it. Yes means yes, but no means you have to live with coveting her.
10. Covet whatever the hell you want to covet. Just remember, ownership is theft, so if you attain it, you must share it.
The Ten Commandments of Stacy,
Fourth Person of the Blessed Quad
1. Don’t worship. God is not worthy of worship. No one is.
2. Forgive God for Her neglect and incompetence. She’s trying.
3. Remember that every day is as holy as every other day and every place is as holy as every other place. Get rid of the churches, temples, synagogues, mosques. They’re an insult to God.
4. Honor those worthy of honor, rarely your parents.
5. You were created killers. I’m sorry.
6. Thou shalt not commit fidelity. Sex is a sacrament. Fidelity violates your holy nature.
7. Ownership is theft. Thou shalt share.
8. Thou shalt not get on thy neighbor’s nerves.
9. It’s okay to covet thy neighbor’s wife, but only fuck her if she consents to it. Yes means yes, but no means you have to live with coveting her.
10. Covet whatever the hell you want to covet. Just remember, ownership is theft, so if you attain it, you must share it.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 22nd, 2013 at 1:10:35 PM
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a balanced wheel is an outstanding random number generator
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 1:11:45 PM
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Quote: AhighOne such bet, I bet everything except the 1, 00, and 27. I challenged the dealer to make me lose, and she did. She apologized profusely, but I said, "hey I asked for it!"
Touche! 00 and 27 are my lucky numbers!
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
February 22nd, 2013 at 1:15:33 PM
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Quote: 24BingoI will never understand how this forum racked up such a large anti-gambling contingent.
Because this is a math forum, not much gambling....
Like I've said before, a good bit of people on this forum have never been to Las Vegas, and even those who have, have not played EVERY game in the casino (Yes, a lot are terrible games, but hey, if you don't try you'll never know.)
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
February 22nd, 2013 at 2:11:13 PM
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This is story is 9 years ago, but thought it was relevant:
London Roulette Scam
I guess the first question, is do you think this type of sector tracking with lasers & computers could be repeated in a lab? Seems to me it could be done.
Could it be repeated in a casino setting.....forget the strip and other sophisticated locations, what about local casinos around the country? Think Hollywood in Ohio that couldn't even get the rules of Crazy Four Poker right. Do you think they have the sophistication to detect an infrared laser being used on the floor?
Think back to the Tran group discussed here: Tran.
Local casinos don't always have state of the art surveillance. If you hit them and didn't come back for a year or more, they may likely never figure out you were cheating. There are lots of small casinos across the country that offer roulette.
London Roulette Scam
I guess the first question, is do you think this type of sector tracking with lasers & computers could be repeated in a lab? Seems to me it could be done.
Could it be repeated in a casino setting.....forget the strip and other sophisticated locations, what about local casinos around the country? Think Hollywood in Ohio that couldn't even get the rules of Crazy Four Poker right. Do you think they have the sophistication to detect an infrared laser being used on the floor?
Think back to the Tran group discussed here: Tran.
Local casinos don't always have state of the art surveillance. If you hit them and didn't come back for a year or more, they may likely never figure out you were cheating. There are lots of small casinos across the country that offer roulette.
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:22:18 PM
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I hope nobody is seriously trying to debate whether or not someone can predict where the ball will land with or without a computer.
This has already been documented and there's a history of AP players that used such methods in the past. George Melas, the engineer for TCS Huxley documents various cases at rouletteresearch.com http://rouletteresearch.com/Publications/PDF_Documents/EvolutionOfRouletteWheels.pdf
This has already been documented and there's a history of AP players that used such methods in the past. George Melas, the engineer for TCS Huxley documents various cases at rouletteresearch.com http://rouletteresearch.com/Publications/PDF_Documents/EvolutionOfRouletteWheels.pdf
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:25:09 PM
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Quote: KeyserAre you seriously trying to debate whether or not someone can predict where the ball will land with or without a computer?
This has already been documented and there's a history of AP players that used such methods in the past. George Melas, the engineer for TCS Huxley documents various cases at rouletteresearch.com
It's not about the player. There can always be a 'biased' dealer as there can be a biased wheel.
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:35:06 PM
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Snyder, with some difficulty, reaches around to
his back passage and yanks out this gem:
All hardcore roulette players believe that dealers can
“section shoot”—meaning steer the ball to the area
around a desired number.
Ballocks, Arnie. In fact, its the exact opposite. Truly
experienced players believe the dealer has no control
at all over where the ball lands. You know who does
believe it? People with failed roulette systems. They
can't even contemplate that their system is a loser,
so they blame the dealer. There are people on unmoderated
roulette forums who will call you every name in the
book if you disagree with that.
Even in the 1910 roulette book Monte Carlo Anecdotes,
the author has a whole chapter debunking sector
shooting. 103 years later its still being discussed.
In all of Snyder's article, he never once mentions that
no dealer, ever, in the history of roulette, has demonstrated
he has any control over the ball. No retired dealer or
current dealer has ever come forward to show us all how
its done. Thats because it can't be done consistently and
is just another urban legend. Like dice influencing..
his back passage and yanks out this gem:
All hardcore roulette players believe that dealers can
“section shoot”—meaning steer the ball to the area
around a desired number.
Ballocks, Arnie. In fact, its the exact opposite. Truly
experienced players believe the dealer has no control
at all over where the ball lands. You know who does
believe it? People with failed roulette systems. They
can't even contemplate that their system is a loser,
so they blame the dealer. There are people on unmoderated
roulette forums who will call you every name in the
book if you disagree with that.
Even in the 1910 roulette book Monte Carlo Anecdotes,
the author has a whole chapter debunking sector
shooting. 103 years later its still being discussed.
In all of Snyder's article, he never once mentions that
no dealer, ever, in the history of roulette, has demonstrated
he has any control over the ball. No retired dealer or
current dealer has ever come forward to show us all how
its done. Thats because it can't be done consistently and
is just another urban legend. Like dice influencing..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:35:15 PM
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just when I have been convinced that a person can never win due to -EV....you come along and get me believing that maybe just maybe I could win at Roulette. Thanks a lot. Now I'm going to have to run around town looking for biased wheel and a dealer that gives me a wink and nod.Quote: Fuengirola2It's not about the player. There can always be a 'biased' dealer as there can be a biased wheel.
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:42:37 PM
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Quote: EvenBobIn all of Snyder's article, he never once mentions that
no dealer, ever, in the history of roulette, has demonstrated
he has any control over the ball. No retired dealer or
current dealer has ever come forward to show us all how
its done. Thats because it can't be done consistently and
is just another urban legend. Like dice influencing..
What about the experiment by Croupier referred to by miplet a few messages earlier?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/other-games/13121-how-to-win-at-roulette-by-arnold-snyder/2/#post221712
Note he was testing himself against half a well rather than a much a narrower section, and may not have been a legal spin under NV rules. But interesting to see someone had a testable theory. Unlike the craps rollers...
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:43:11 PM
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Quote: EvenBobIn all of Snyder's article, he never once mentions that
no dealer, ever, in the history of roulette, has demonstrated
he has any control over the ball. No retired dealer or
current dealer has ever come forward to show us all how
its done.
Quote: WizardSo, with the greatest of respect for Arnold Snyder, I have to say that I think he is wrong on this one. If any dealer out there claims he can steer the wheel, and is willing to show me, please PM me.
I had never seen this old thread by Croupier until just now. I don't believe any forum members were around to verify his data, but Croupier is an otherwise upstanding member of the community here. It seems he has offered up some amount of proof that a determined dealer can aim the ball with practice and determination. I don't think it's impossible that it's happening out there...
What we really need is Croupier to make a trip to the US and demonstrate for the Wiz...maybe webcast...anyone out there with a roulette wheel in their house? Ken?
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:48:25 PM
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Quote: thecesspitWhat about the experiment by Croupier referred to by miplet a few messages earlier?
.
You mean the non sanctioned private test with
no witnesses and no official controls? Is that the
one?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:52:50 PM
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Quote: AcesAndEightsI don't believe any forum members were around to verify his data, ?
This is nothing new. But they can never demonstrate their
amazing ability under either real casino conditions, or under
the conditions of an official test. Thats because they aren't
just influencing the ball, they're influencing the entire game,
which can only be done in secrecy, behind closed doors..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 22nd, 2013 at 3:58:23 PM
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Once again evenbob is making a lot of sense here. It's the randomness of the wheel that attracted me to the game. Roulette, like life, is completely random.
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:16:49 PM
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Quote: EvenBobYou mean the non sanctioned private test with
no witnesses and no official controls? Is that the
one?
The bottom line is simple. Assume a given ball release velocity, wheel velocity, and release point. In that scenario, the only question is whether each outcome on the wheel is equally likely.
If not, sector shooting is possible. At that point, the inquiry turns to whether an experienced croupier can achieve sufficient consistency to matter.
In other words, if the assumption of uniform randomness in roulette relies in part upon variances in the croupier's delivery, then reducing those variances will void the assumption of uniform outcomes. I am not a trained roulette dealer, but I believe that the training emphasizes varying the wheel and release speeds to reduce this possibility.
I have no reason to doubt Croupier's data. If an expert darts player can hit 180s regularly, and a skilled hunter can regularly hit moving prey with a rifle, it's not at all inconceivable that a roulette croupier intentionally attempting to be consistent could achieve some measure of success.
This should be a relatively easy thing to test. Hook up an automatic release mechanism to an optical sensor to detect wheel speed and position, and release the ball with the same velocity under the same conditions each time. You could even buy an airball roulette machine and reprogram it. I have a feeling that if you were to contact some of those vendors (who mostly happen to be in Eastern Europe), you would find that they intentionally vary the release parameters. Some of them may even have performed analyses on their mechanisms and discovered that they are indeed biased if the launch parameters are consistent.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:26:37 PM
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" If an expert darts player can hit 180s regularly, and a skilled hunter can regularly hit moving prey with a rifle, it's not at all inconceivable that a roulette croupier intentionally attempting to be consistent could achieve some measure of success."
Here we go, the old Tiger Woods analogy. Dice setting is a skill, croupier is a skill, etc. Bullshit !
I believe in human nature. I find it impossible that not one of these skilled players makes money besides selling lessons or ever takes up a serious challenge. Just touts in a different costume.
Here we go, the old Tiger Woods analogy. Dice setting is a skill, croupier is a skill, etc. Bullshit !
I believe in human nature. I find it impossible that not one of these skilled players makes money besides selling lessons or ever takes up a serious challenge. Just touts in a different costume.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:32:58 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistYou could even buy an airball roulette machine and reprogram it. .
You won't have to reprogram it, they're already
set to hit a certain sector. They're just glorified
slot machines.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:39:05 PM
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Is this funny or is it just me? Just a little feedback?Quote: treetopbuddyAccording to the author Arnold Snyder....."The average dealer who can't or won't' steer goes though his work life stripping people of their money while giving them very little in return. It's depressing shameful work for any dealer with any feeling for other people..." Now that's some funny stuff.
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:39:47 PM
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I've skipped most of what si sure to be a contentious and pointelss debate (like dice setting). So I'll just point out three things:
1) Rember Croupier? He dealt roulette and was undertaking an epxeriment along these lines. As I recall he never finished it
2) This would be exceedingly easy to test: find some dealers who claim they can influence the ball and get them to spin a couple of thousand times, measure the results and compare them to expected random distributions. Until such a study is undertaken, we've got no real data to go on (like dice setting).
3) A group back in the seventies tried predicting the landing of roulette balls by meauring the wheel and ball speeds. In "lab" tests, they were able to rpedict an octant where the ball would land which, allegedly, beat random guessing. This did not work in the casinos because the cheating gear (let's call it what it is) was unreliable. These days the last wouldn't be a problem, but I can't see anyone getting away with it.
1) Rember Croupier? He dealt roulette and was undertaking an epxeriment along these lines. As I recall he never finished it
2) This would be exceedingly easy to test: find some dealers who claim they can influence the ball and get them to spin a couple of thousand times, measure the results and compare them to expected random distributions. Until such a study is undertaken, we've got no real data to go on (like dice setting).
3) A group back in the seventies tried predicting the landing of roulette balls by meauring the wheel and ball speeds. In "lab" tests, they were able to rpedict an octant where the ball would land which, allegedly, beat random guessing. This did not work in the casinos because the cheating gear (let's call it what it is) was unreliable. These days the last wouldn't be a problem, but I can't see anyone getting away with it.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:41:13 PM
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Quote: BuzzardHere we go, the old Tiger Woods analogy. Dice setting is a skill, croupier is a skill, etc. Bullshit ! I find it impossible that not one of these skilled players makes money besides selling lessons or ever takes up a serious challenge.
Is our $100 bet on the dice influencing trial not a serious enough challenge?
If not, there is a way we can make it more interesting.
By the way, have you sent your part of the bet to an independent third party yet?
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:41:31 PM
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Quote: treetopbuddyIs this funny or is it just me? Just a little feedback?
It's sad. So many people actually believe this sort of bullshit. Really sad !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:50:08 PM
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all one has to do is watch the action of the ball to know it's completely random. The person that sees order in the drop of the ball needs to go back to chasing crop circles.Quote: BuzzardIt's sad. So many people actually believe this sort of bullshit. Really sad !
Each day is better than the next
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:56:44 PM
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Quote: treetopbuddyall one has to do is watch the action of the ball to know it's completely random. The person that sees order in the drop of the ball needs to go back to chasing crop circles.
Treetopbuddy,
I'm sure it that it looks completely random to you.
However, to those of us that know how to look at these wheels correctly, some wheels will look much different than others.
February 22nd, 2013 at 4:58:53 PM
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Quote: Nareed1) Rember Croupier? He dealt roulette and was undertaking an epxeriment along these lines.
Yes, Croupier claims to have had great success in a 20,000 spin experiment. I'd be interested to know if the wheel he used had the diamonds and other obstacles that US wheels have. It is also possible that his results may have been due to a biased wheel.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
