UTH - First trip to Vegas advice on ideal places to play (reduce scouting time)

Making my first trip to Vegas in 3 weeks and thought I would reach out to some of you local "uth pros" or just "table game pros" and see where I should focus my time playing at and would rather not waste a bunch of time on the front end scouting.

I will be staying at the Aria, so I'm hoping for a couple recommendations in the MGM family and any others close to the Aria but if there are a couple hands down winners I'm open to cabbing it as I'm there to play.

I like to play $100 a spot when I find a good game. I'm also very observant and will step out of the way if one of you guys wants my seat and the game is safe in my hands and won't be ruined unlike some folks I see come through my home court.

Thanks for any help and feel free to email/message me any sensitive info.

Quote: UTHPro

I like to play $100 a spot when I find a good game.

Chances are good that if you bet $100 on the Blind and hit a royal flush, your $50,000 prize will exceed the maximum table payout. You should cap your Ante and Blind bets at 1/500^th of the maximum table payout to prevent the maximum payout from increasing the house edge.

Thanks for the comment JB, but that is not a worry as I'm used to a $25k max and it is a very small % in the big picture of my game but for the normal player it is very important. I've played over 3,000 hours of UTH in the past 5 years so I know the game inside and out just need some info on places to play if you know what I mean. And I don't play trips but occasionally just to "fit in" when the game is good!

Quote: UTHPro

Thanks for the comment JB, but that is not a worry as I'm used to a $25k max and it is a very small % in the big picture of my game but for the normal player it is very important. I've played over 3,000 hours of UTH in the past 5 years so I know the game inside and out just need some info on places to play if you know what I mean. And I don't play trips but occasionally just to "fit in" when the game is good!

Fair enough, but just be forewarned that playing a $100 bet on the ante on a $25k payout cap will add 250/32,487 = 0.770% of an ante to the house edge, a relative increase of ~35% over the optimal house edge.

Quote: tringlomane

Fair enough, but just be forewarned that playing a $100 bet on the ante on a $25k payout cap will add 250/32,487 = 0.770% of an ante to the house edge, a relative increase of ~35% over the optimal house edge.

I'm a numbers guy and know all the odds. I didn't want this to be a odds post just want to see if I can get suggestions on where I should play from a few informed sources here. At a minimum I'm hoping to hear which casinos have the most UTH tables.

I'm hoping to hear from the likes of Ibeatyouraces (tried to PM him but he doesn't accept PMs as he would know what I'm looking for). I will be checking my Private Messages, so if anyone doesn't want to post on here please send me a PM and somehow I will repay the favor.

PM PaiGowDan, he knows all the flashers.

It's at almost every casino now. I can't think of one that doesn't have it -- i.e., all the big Strip casinos and the major local chains have it. Nobody has more than two tables (the Orleans has two).

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And not be to rude, but an AP'er will never post a play on a public message board. Never, ever, ever. It's just not done, nothing personal about it. That said, I hope you get some PM's where you can work out some sort of bargained-for exchange.

Quote: teddys

PM PaiGowDan, he knows all the flashers.

The flashers are pretty much gone, as shift managers have been read the riot act, - largely thanks to word getting out, as mentioned. Dealers who can't observe game protection are either now up to speed or are filing for unemployment, and so hole-carders don't announce or share, lest they be updating a casino friend or agent.

Quote: teddys

It's [UTH is] at almost every casino now. I can't think of one that doesn't have it -- i.e., all the big Strip casinos and the major local chains have it. Nobody has more than two tables (the Orleans has two).

As it deserves to be, the great game that it is.

LEARN proper strategy to a "T," and you will have a rewarding time on the game. James Grosjean, and Steve How's site, are places to learn. Practice at Ultimate Texas Hold 'em online. It's not a question of hours of play, it good play and low profile.

I play it at the Orleans, Sunset, Fiesta Henderson, and GVR. Enjoy...

Quote: teddys

And not be to rude, but an AP'er will never post a play on a public message board. Never, ever, ever. It's just not done, nothing personal about it. That said, I hope you get some PM's where you can work out some sort of bargained-for exchange.

Thanks for the info guys. and yes I know nothing would be gained except in PMs but not being from the area just needed a place to start and while I've followed this forum for years I just never post for obvious reasons. From what I take from the answers it is only for the very very good now which is good to hear as I hated all the marginal folks killing it for the real players. I look forward to a good visit to Vegas In a couple weeks.

you can feel free to close this post and/or erase as I will just send one PM and it will die or get info I'm looking for unless someone else's pms me.

Thanks again!

Best of luck. There are probably fewer people doing what you do than you think. They tend to keep things to themselves. That said, don't limit yourself to the Strip and do a lot of scouting. Like I said, it's everywhere and more tables/shifts are being added all the time. It's a very legit opportunity if you're determined to find the best games.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The biggest threat to an AP are the civilians!

And sometimes the AP's own boldness and profile. Money is watched.
If a civilian can see you, then so can surveillance. Especially if you're betting more than $100 a spot....purple ($500) a spot is hawked by mgt...

Quote: UTHPro

Thanks for the comment JB, but that is not a worry as I'm used to a $25k max and it is a very small % in the big picture of my game but for the normal player it is very important. I've played over 3,000 hours of UTH in the past 5 years so I know the game inside and out just need some info on places to play if you know what I mean. And I don't play trips but occasionally just to "fit in" when the game is good!

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Usually only when you're winning but for the most part yes. Noone sneezes when you lose a large amount but win it back the next day and they wonder why.

Disagree. Ultimate Texas Hold 'em is next to impossible to AP without being obvious. Think about this:

1. You're betting Gold action on UTH on the strip. Obviously you KNOW the game is being watched, and you also know the game's strategy cold, - or are familiar with it, from Steve How's discountgaming.net, or from James Grosjean, or from Mike Shackleford's two-player hole card strength tables, among many other resources. Basically, it's raise 4x on a pair of 3's+, and Ace, King-5 off, Q-8, J10 - else check before the flop.

2. Like I said, if you're betting Gold action on UTH, you're being watched, - and not by civilians. And it shows if you have any "extra information." The dealer puts both his hole cards AND the community board on the table right at the start of the game - and before the 4x bet closing - if using an I-deal machine. If the cards are flashed or marked, then they are known by the AP's.

3. So.....you don't follow this known and basic strategy, but instead you bet 4 times on your 8-5 hole cards, against strategy, and the flop is 6-7-4; the turn and the River are J-K. You flopped a straight where anyone would have bet 2x right after the flop, but you you say, "I was feelin' it" - get this - "with my 8 and 4 off suit."

4. okay, now you got a pair of Kings as your hole cards, and the flop is 2-2-J. But you check, against the game's strategy, because you noticed the flop, and the dealer's hole cards of 9-2, from hole-carding or flashing, and so you know he has trips, which you cannot beat. At the River, you discreetly fold, knowing it is a known losing hand, and the dealer turns over your cards, saying, "well, sir, I am surprised you didn't bet it 4x before the flop, or even 2x after the flop with two pairs, Kings and deuces. So is surveillance." What are you going to do, tell them that you're the amazing Kreskin?

If you've played as few as ten hands of AP UTH, especially for some big money and table loses, the forsensics of the game are a cinch. If the dealer was flashing, then he's the one in deep trouble, so its no legal or backrooming issue of any sort. But it is like hitting hard 17 or soft 19 knowing the dealer has a ten under his ten upcard. All the floor has to do is:
- see a GREAT hand NOT bet 4x, especially if folded - and it would have LOST after the fold, or;
- a poor hand that had a 4x bet that won, or a 2x bet on no "normal" chance that won. Even keeping a 6-3 for 1x against a dealer's lower hand.

Most dealers wouldn't track this - or care - but big money is watched and recorded by management. Some of them play poker.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Most of these situation will NEVER happen! And as in card counting. You don't make things obvious.

It's not obvious to dealers, true. For the most part they're all suit-up, show-up, please tip me, I go home.

To a poker player? REAL apparent.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

P.S. Ploopies WILL sometimes check down big pairs or big high cards also so you CAN get away with it when needed.

No.
Ploppies are betting nickels, AND are consistent. AND Ploppies FAIL to 4x bet on WINNING hands, not the losing hands to duck. Consistently "ducking a loser" versus "failing to bet up a winner" is what gives it away - as far as the known information goes.

You're betting Gold, and had raised 4x before, it's not ploppy play, it called "caught ducking a surprising loser with uncanny foresight," quite remarkable, actually. "Bad beats" make up a large percentage of clean play on the game, especially when using fine strategy.....

Edit: Let's take a vote on this: the OP is "eminence front."

Paigowdan has a point that playing optimally with the information you may gain illegitimately will soon become obvious to skilled surveillance.

However, this doesn't mean the game still can't be beat, consistently, by shrewd players.

If one believes there aren't good players flying under the radar and beating this game, you are making them happy.

I'm sure there are some, as well as some backed off.

If happening on UTH games, I think a dealer would have to be involved, considering the massive swings and drop on this game that can marginally mask a run on it, but to which the play of the hands reveal tons of info about the action that's really going down.

To be honest, with all the "wink-wink - please PM me privately - we'll meet at an MGM property in three weeks for some Gold action AP play on Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. Piece of cake....." from this brand-new OP, - I think it's either a put-on, or a trap. I hope no one PM-ed him, I'm still trying to figure this one out 100%.

But if a game is vulnerable, then it's a game protection issue. And the I-deal CAN be made hole-carding proof for this game:

the I-deal shuffler CAN be modified to:
1. deal out only the players hole cards, and the dealer stops;

2. and then after the dealer pauses while the players bet either 4x or check on their hole cards, then the dealer hits the green button once, meaning "add one card to the two cards sitting in the dispenser for our flop."

3. after the dealer then hits the green button one time - for a third card to go on top of the sitting two-card packet that are waiting in the I-deal - then you got your three card flop to be exposed to the players when needed.

4. Then players either bet 2x or check on the shown flop, and the next two cards are taken out as the River and turn cards.

5. Players either bet 1x or FOLD, and THEN the dealer takes out the next two-card packet as his hole cards.

The dealer can't flash the cards that are not taken out of the shuffler, - until they are needed.

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Quote: teddys

Best of luck. There are probably fewer people doing what you do than you think. They tend to keep things to themselves. That said, don't limit yourself to the Strip and do a lot of scouting. Like I said, it's everywhere and more tables/shifts are being added all the time. It's a very legit opportunity if you're determined to find the best games.

Thanks again everyone. Teddys - Your response above is basically all I figured to gain. Just curious how good the strip was compared to off the strip, I know off the beat places or even large casino by themselves are very good places of oppurtunity just curious if the Strip was as good.

To All - nothing to worry about from me, I'm just a lone player that breaks most of the common rules by being very good at what I do and always being 100% aware of EVERYTHING (most focus on playing the odds, but that is only a very small percentage of the package) and having prethought all possible synarios. The run down PiaGowDan gave was good, but for those with the skills those are easy to avoid and just part of everyday playing. You have to know your surrounding sums it up.

I work alone (except for when another player comes to town that I meet on the felt and then I have to problem helping/working with another player for the session) and would never meet anyone I hadn't previously met, but if I run into one of you while playing after a couple words back and forth to verify I would have no problem doing a little playing together but I find it is just too hard and just like most think nobody does it like them.

Don't know why I finally posted but I'm glad nobody post directly as I've read to much on this forum in the past that I would think nobody would ever post in a public forum.

Thanks again all and maybe one of these days I will meet one of you on the felt in Vegas or back East. Looking forward to my first trip to Vegas.

Good to hear and a very good and gracious response UTH pro.

It's very hard to ply any trade above card counting discreetly on a forum - or in a casino, - and strip casinos may be tough: good surveillance, and they're part of a huge communications network: Harrah's, MGM, Las Vegas Sands, Shufflemaster, et al, - all these big boys don't play. And they have a right to defend their business interests as AP players and more also feel and believe.

As for UTH, SHFL is a Huge company with a huge investment in UTH, and in game protection in general. Using a flashing dealer, or actively hole-carding with any gimmick is in a riskier and grayer catagory than counting, which is 100% legal and just a backoff, and maybe a surveillance photo/flag.

Do expect that if this UTH gimmick does make a dent or it does pop up above the radar, then game play "next cards" on such games will stay in the shuffler until the next check, raise or fold went down. This is all without cards face-down on the table, which could be flashed, marked, and AP-ed, etc. Before that point, game play can be scrutinized, and camo is not easy. In the cat and mouse game of staying ahead of the AP - or the casino - [depending on your "side and allegiance" - your stripes], all sources are used as "R & D."

Anyway, - thanks and good luck to you, a gentleman aside from stripes; regards.

It's times like these I'm reminded of one of my favorite Fight Club quotes:

Dry cleaner employee: "I'm not exposed... to speak any such information to you, nor would I even if I had said information you want, at this juncture... be able."
Narrator: "You're a moron."
employee: "I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave."

I would expect anyone that actually had said information to expect something in return, unless they have a history of sharing intel with you specifically.