Poll

26 votes (92.85%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
1 vote (3.57%)
1 vote (3.57%)
No votes (0%)

28 members have voted

weaselman
weaselman
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 2349
November 3rd, 2011 at 4:58:01 AM permalink
Quote: Jufo81

Wow, online casino decades ago... Interesting! I'd like to see what an online casino in 1980's looked like. Slots with ASCII graphics ;)



Not, in the 80's. More like in 96 ...


Quote:

Anyways, the encryption method you mentioned does exist at one online casino - Betvoyager - which is the only online casino I know to certify it's fairness this way. See: http://www.betvoyager.com/games/randomness/


Ah, interesting. Gotta check it out.


Quote: betvoyager.com


By clicking on the Calculate checksum button, the player will see the checksum for the text information mentioned above. The player can then compare this checksum to the one received at the beginning of the hand. The fact that these two sums correspond proves that the the game used the same deck that was created at the start.



Well ... this is better than nothing of course ... Except, how do I know that their program will calculate the checksum of the actual shoe that was just played when I push the button, and not simply output the same string that was displayed in the beginning?
I guess, I could just record all cards, and compute the checksum on my own, but ... (1) how many people know how to do that, and (2) one would have to know the exact algorithm they use to represent the deck, because for the checksum to match, the to representations must be absolutely identical, character to character.

Well ... like I said, better than nothing, but by far not as assuring as that thing I described earlier, which is the *only* way I know to reasonably assure the player that the online game is fare. With all due respect to Wizard, I just don't see how his audit can be worth much if anything at all. If they can turn the "rogue mode" on and off at will, no audit is ever going to uncover anything. The only way to catch them would be, like in this case, for someone to invest their own money, and meticulously document everything. And even then, the casino would have to get really greedy and stupid to get caught.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
November 3rd, 2011 at 5:28:27 AM permalink
Anyone know how much this SBR craps casino made? How much did it cost to develop this unique software?
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 184
  • Posts: 10436
November 3rd, 2011 at 6:12:52 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Please read my post own results before you vote.

I finally checked out this thread, and looked at your results.

Um, WOW!

But, unless I missed something, it looks like those kinds of results would be a dark sider's dream.

Do the results change, to be similarly skewed towards a loss, when betting the Don't Pass?

I would assume so.

And that begs the question: What does the software do if you're betting doey-dont?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Jufo81
Jufo81
Joined: May 23, 2010
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 344
November 3rd, 2011 at 6:32:26 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman


Well ... this is better than nothing of course ... Except, how do I know that their program will calculate the checksum of the actual shoe that was just played when I push the button, and not simply output the same string that was displayed in the beginning?
I guess, I could just record all cards, and compute the checksum on my own, but ... (1) how many people know how to do that, and (2) one would have to know the exact algorithm they use to represent the deck, because for the checksum to match, the to representations must be absolutely identical, character to character.



I am no expert but they (Betvoyager) advise to calculate their checksum with any external independent website:

"The checksum is being computed with the help of the program used in our casino. Players can use other programs to compute the checksum for text information according to the SHA-256 algorithm. Players can find such programs on the following websites:

http://jssha.sourceforge.net
http://www.farfarfar.com/scripts/encrypt
http://www.fileformat.info/tool/hash.htm"

Also I believe that the key (code sequence) you get after the hand to unlock the checksum is unique, so there are no two ways to decode the checksum, making it impossible for the casino to choose a key that suits them the best.

If you are still unconvinced, why don't you test their Zero-house edge Craps (no registration or anything needed to play in demo mode):
http://www.betvoyager.com/games/demo/craps-equal/
In the top tab menu bar you can shift the values of the dice by any amount, so if the software initially chose 1-2, then user's shift of 3-3 would deliver outcome 4-5 = Nine. The third value is the number of outcomes generated for one checksum (default = 10). After you have done the specified amount of rolls, you can press the V button to view the results and verify checksum.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
November 3rd, 2011 at 6:39:24 AM permalink
DJ, read the whole thread. The software was adaptive in nature. On Don't, it biased heavily towards Pass. On Pass, it biased heavily towards don't pass. When a user placed the line and all the numbers, the next roll was a 7 on 41 of 74 tries. I strongly suspect that a doey-don't would result in an inordinate number of 12s.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
weaselman
weaselman
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 2349
November 3rd, 2011 at 7:10:58 AM permalink
Quote: Jufo81


Also I believe that the key (code sequence) you get after the hand to unlock the checksum is unique, so there are no two ways to decode the checksum, making it impossible for the casino to choose a key that suits them the best.


Yes, that is true.

Quote:

If you are still unconvinced, why don't you test their Zero-house edge Craps (no registration or anything needed to play in demo mode):
http://www.betvoyager.com/games/demo/craps-equal/


Heh. What does demo mode prove? It's kinda as convincing as the "third party audit" online casinos like bragging about so much. Surely, they would never cheat in demo mode or when they know they are being audited.

Anyhow, I checked out the betvoyager a little more, and tend to agree with you, it looks pretty convincing. To the extent of sounding "too good to be true" :) They are offering many 0 house edge games, including blackjack, which is also countable ... If they are also not cheating, how in the world do they expect to make any money? Just player mistakes?
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
Jufo81
Jufo81
Joined: May 23, 2010
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 344
November 3rd, 2011 at 7:38:23 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman


Heh. What does demo mode prove? It's kinda as convincing as the "third party audit" online casinos like bragging about so much. Surely, they would never cheat in demo mode or when they know they are being audited.



I wanted you to try the demo mode to get first-hand experience in how the "randomness control" is implemented, not to prove anything.

Quote: weaselman


Anyhow, I checked out the betvoyager a little more, and tend to agree with you, it looks pretty convincing. To the extent of sounding "too good to be true" :) They are offering many 0 house edge games, including blackjack, which is also countable ... If they are also not cheating, how in the world do they expect to make any money? Just player mistakes?



The shoes are always shuffled after every hand (new random ordering of cards is generated between hands) so there is no counting involved. They probably make money from players playing worse than optimal strategy and they also charge a 10% fee of net winnings made on 0% house edge games. So if you were to turn $100 into $1000 playing zero house edge games, you could only withdraw $910 (10% of $900 profit is deducted from your next withdrawal). Even though at first glance this sounds terrible, it's actually a cheaper gamble than to play against constant house edge over long-term.
weaselman
weaselman
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 2349
November 3rd, 2011 at 8:18:25 AM permalink
Quote: Jufo81


The shoes are always shuffled after every hand (new random ordering of cards is generated between hands) so there is no counting involved.


It is? I did not realize that, because they kept talking about verifying the signature after the deck is completed.
But it looks like you are right, it (the signature) changes after every hand.

Quote:

They probably make money from players playing worse than optimal strategy and they also charge a 10% fee of net winnings made on 0% house edge games. So if you were to turn $100 into $1000 playing zero house edge games, you could only withdraw $910 (10% of $900 profit is deducted from your next withdrawal). Even though at first glance this sounds terrible, it's actually a cheaper gamble than to play against constant house edge over long-term.


Hm. I did not realise that either, did not see them mention that anywhere at all.

I don't see how it is a cheaper option - with zero house edge, you are expected to lose 1/2 and win 1/2, but if they take 10% of winnings back, then your true expectation is -0.5 + 0.45 = -.05, for a horrific 5% house edge. :-/

I also don't quite see why they claim their BJ is 0 house edge to begin with. It has all the standard rules except AK spades pays 4 to 1. I get the probability of that happening as
8/312*8/311*(1 - 256/310*32/309) = 0.00060317. The difference in payout with the regular game is 4 - 3/2 = 5/2.
So, the decrease in house edge is 0.00060317 * 5/2 = 0.15%
Now, the regular game's house edge is about 0.37%, and decreasing it by 0.15% does not bring it to zero ...

Unless I screwed up somewhere in this math, it looks like my initial hunch about it being too good to be true was right on :)
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
Jufo81
Jufo81
Joined: May 23, 2010
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 344
November 3rd, 2011 at 9:04:30 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman

It is? I did not realize that, because they kept talking about verifying the signature after the deck is completed.
But it looks like you are right, it (the signature) changes after every hand.



It is safe to say that at every online casino the shoe/deck is shuffled after every hand, apart from some rare exceptions. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has ever gambled online.

Quote: weaselman


Hm. I did not realise that either, did not see them mention that anywhere at all.

I don't see how it is a cheaper option - with zero house edge, you are expected to lose 1/2 and win 1/2, but if they take 10% of winnings back, then your true expectation is -0.5 + 0.45 = -.05, for a horrific 5% house edge. :-/



More details: http://www.betcruise.com/en/payrules/

You missed that the 10% commission is only deducted upon after cashing out once you have finished your play, not between every hand/outcome. Suppose that you played one thousand $10 hands in zero house edge blackjack and ended up ahead $100. As a result a $10 commission would be deducted from your winnings, but given that you wagered 1000*$10 = $10000 in total, it would translate only to 0.1% house edge ($10/$10000 = 0.1%), which is vastly lower house edge than a typical BJ game.

If you compare this commission scheme to regular house edge, you will see that the house edge punishes the player the longer he plays, because it will always catch him eventually and lead to a quaranteed net loss. But with commission system you can play as long as you want, even for years, with zero expected loss, and only pay 10% commission from net profit when you eventually cash out from the portal (it should be noted that they also pay 7.3% yearly interest for the total account balance you hold there: http://www.betcruise.com/en/daily-interest/).

Quote: weaselman


I also don't quite see why they claim their BJ is 0 house edge to begin with. It has all the standard rules except AK spades pays 4 to 1. I get the probability of that happening as
8/312*8/311*(1 - 256/310*32/309) = 0.00060317. The difference in payout with the regular game is 4 - 3/2 = 5/2.
So, the decrease in house edge is 0.00060317 * 5/2 = 0.15%
Now, the regular game's house edge is about 0.37%, and decreasing it by 0.15% does not bring it to zero ...



Assuming you refer to American BJ (AK spades pays 4:1 in the zero HE version), it has a house edge of 0.23% and the AK Spades payout brings it down by 0.15% to 0.08%. The definiton of zero house edge games (see: http://www.betvoyager.com/games/equal-odds/) includes a +/- 0.1% error margin so it's correctly classified as zero house edge with this definition.

Quote: weaselman


Unless I screwed up somewhere in this math, it looks like my initial hunch about it being too good to be true was right on :)



Well, it's just an online casino that does things a bit differently than the rest (randomness quarantee, commission scheme). This discussion is getting off-topic as the topic was BLR software. Basically I just wanted to let people know that it is possible to have online implementations out there that quarantee fairness for the player, which is what you sought after.

The sad thing is: There are estimated 4,000 online casinos in the business at the moment and if only ONE of them has an implementation that quarantees fairness for it's players, the online industry is going to have a lot to improve on.
weaselman
weaselman
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 2349
November 3rd, 2011 at 11:14:19 AM permalink
Quote: Jufo81

It is safe to say that at every online casino the shoe/deck is shuffled after every hand, apart from some rare exceptions.



Well, this one is an exception with its "randomness control" thingy, so could as well be an exception in the other thing too ...

Quote:

This shouldn't be news to anyone who has ever gambled online.


I haven't. :)

Quote:

You missed that the 10% commission is only deducted upon after cashing out once you have finished your play, not between every hand/outcome. Suppose that you played one thousand $10 hands in zero house edge blackjack and ended up ahead $100. As a result a $10 commission would be deducted from your winnings, but given that you wagered 1000*$10 = $10000 in total, it would translate only to 0.1% house edge ($10/$10000 = 0.1%), which is vastly lower house edge than a typical BJ game.


I stand corrected.


Quote:

Assuming you refer to American BJ (AK spades pays 4:1 in the zero HE version), it has a house edge of 0.23% and the AK Spades payout brings it down by 0.15% to 0.08%.


Wizard's calculator says 0.2847. Reducing that by cut card effect (0.014) brings it down to 0.2707. Further decreasing by 0.15% leaves 0.12%. Still greater than 0.1.
Did I forget some rule?

Quote:

Basically I just wanted to let people know that it is possible to have online implementations out there that quarantee fairness for the player, which is what you sought after.


This is noted. And kudos to them for doing this.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"

  • Jump to: