Mental's Method

I was asked this question in another thread. I didn't want to hijack that thread so I am providing some answers here.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: Mental

All I have is blind luck and a high percentage returned as free slot play. I am not screwed because I don't have to beat any game to make a profit.

I have a question if you don't mind my asking

I assume you are saying that if you pump in a certain amount (a lot I would guess) they will give you enough free play to be profitable

correct____YES__?

but why would they do that___THEY ARE BAD AT MATH_____doesn't that mean that anyone who does that will be profitable____YES_____?

or maybe you have to know the exact cutoff point to get the maximum free play

or maybe you have to play the machine in a way to lose the least - with some expertise

please explain___OKAY______thanks_____YW______I don't know much about machines.
.
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Using bonuses/free slot playfor advantage play is not something I invented. Many other folks have discussed this approach to advantage play including the Wizard. This underpins the business model of darkoz and other card runners. They manipulate the casino's perceptions of new players in a way that allows the players to get very large amounts of free slot play relative to their expected losses. I actually respect darkoz's ability to reverse engineer slot promos and his business skill in exploiting it. Card running has never interested me partly because I never wanted to run a business with a lot of employees. I have done the new-player exploit with my own account at many casinos and I know how powerful the technique can be. That said, it is harder to keep casinos giving a player excess free slot play over the course of years.

I used to play video poker with an advantage. That ended around 2003 when certain games like All American and Double Joker were downgraded to be less than 100% RTP. Since then, I depended on cashback and points multipliers to make video poker profitable. Even DDB at 99.98% can be profitable with greater than 1% cashback. VP is a game where you 'play the machine in a way to lose the least'. Blackjack is the other common example, but there are some slots that have a strategy component.

How do you get that much cashback? Sometimes casinos offer play-to-earn with different targets. You play exactly to the target coin in that gives you the best expected value. I had an online casino offer me a $600 bonus for $10,000 coin in on any casino game. I played blackjack with an edge over 5%. This was certainly a mistake by the casino.

Often, comps can be turned into cash at a 2:1 discount. I had a 100x comp multiplier at a CZR property once. I played a slot progressive that was at 97% RTP. The effective cashback was 0.2% * 100 / 2 = 10% cashback. This was the only time I ever had a 100x multiplier, but I have had a 25x multiplier maybe three times.

If I have a play-to-earn that works for me, that doesn't mean everyone will profit from an identical offer. Online casinos can have well over 1000 unique games. I try to find the best game to play based on the terms of any play-to-earn offer. Often VP and table games are excluded. Sometimes, I cannot find any game that works out by the numbers. If you just play your favorite game, you will likely be playing -EV overall. After all, the casino promo is designed to incentivize -EV play. Luckily, casinos don't always understand how good their best games are. I make it my business to know the inventory.

My superpower, though, is that I can lose a lot of money in a session and not blink. Loss rebates definitely afford me my best advantages in terms of percentage edge. With play-to-earn, I am sometimes playing $200K coin in with a fraction of a percent edge. It takes a lot of time. I even play some slightly -EV play-to-earn promos to curry favor and keep the offers coming. In contrast, loss rebates can offer big edges and seldom take much time. With loss rebates, I hammer max bets until I win a big early jackpot or lose the max. I lost $8k and $12K last week on two loss rebates. Loss rebates are definitely not for everyone, but I don't mind taking big losses. Casinos love players who take big losses and keep on playing. I think my ability to loses $20K, 30K, 50K in a session contributes to my good offers and my longevity at casinos where I am solidly profitable. I think the casinos believe I am just lucky and that they are just one big losing streak away from owning me.

Finally, leaderboards sometimes offer AP opportunities. These opportunities are becoming very rare. A properly designed leaderboard will not be +EV at any prize on the leaderboard. Casinos quickly learn from their mistakes with leaderboard prize structure. They either lower the prize pool or they restrict the eligible games to prevent people from playing high RTP games to win the leaderboard. I basically use leaderboards in combinations with other promos to earn a few hundred dollars of extra free slot play. I won a lot of leaderboards in the past, but those +EV opportunities are gone and probably never coming back.

Quote: Mental

I have done the new-player exploit with my own account at many casinos and I know how powerful the technique can be. That said, it is harder to keep casinos giving a player excess free slot play over the course of years.

Quote: Mental

[Most of my action is on slots. Of course, I don't win at slots consistently. The point is to lose as little as possible to satisfy the requirements of the bonus. Don't take the bonus in the first place if the terms require you to play in such a way as to lose too much.

You didn't even say that your goal was to do advantage play. Most gamblers don't want to be APs. If you just want to gamble, then bonuses are a great way to lose less while gambling or to gamble more on the same budget. But it all starts with being able to analyze what your advantage or disadvantage is with any particular promo or bonus.
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Quote: Mental

Sign up bonuses are peanuts compared to what you can get on an ongoing basis if the casino likes your action. I received 6 figures in promo dollars from a single online casino in 2023.

It is a mistake to take the newbie cash and burn the casino. Not true for all casinos, but for most.
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Besides some of the contradictions in claims, you'd think that if it were possible for one person to make what is implied at pushing dose buttons, DarkOz would be making $20,000. a minute, not a week, with all the minions D.Oz has under his thumb.

Quote: MDawg

Besides some of the contradictions in claims, you'd think that if it were possible for one person to make what is implied at pushing dose buttons, DarkOz would be making $20,000. a minute, not a week, with all the minions D.Oz has under his thumb.
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I don’t see the contradictions in the posts you quote.

Quote: unJon

Quote: MDawg

Besides some of the contradictions in claims, you'd think that if it were possible for one person to make what is implied at pushing dose buttons, DarkOz would be making $20,000. a minute, not a week, with all the minions D.Oz has under his thumb.
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I don’t see the contradictions in the posts you quote.
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Some people don't understand how a person can be cash flow positive at a casino while playing -EV slots and losing at those games, as expected. Thus they don't understand the business model darkoz and I use.

I regret starting this thread because I put out too much info. I was nursing a big loss that day and I was posting for ego gratification. That is usually a bad idea for an AP.

Quote: MDawg

Besides some of the contradictions in claims, you'd think that if it were possible for one person to make what is implied at pushing dose buttons, DarkOz would be making $20,000. a minute, not a week, with all the minions D.Oz has under his thumb.
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$20,000 a week but not every week!

Mental actually gave some valuable input.

As for why not every minute or why it's not every week, the taking offer depends on when offers are OFFERED!

If a casino offers freeplay 2x a month I can make even that profitable. I would make money 2 weeks out of four for the month. If that was $20,000 it would be $20,000 made in a week. But it wouldn't be every week.

There are other reasons including casinos catching on and ending promotions/cutting cards leaving promos unavailable to collect.

You must get all this but fear that someone actually is believable about their winning gambling claims.

I will state that this past year 2023 was difficult. I only made about $10,000 a week and not every week. Certain promos were changed, some facilities shut down my operation and a few major chains were affected by a cyber attack (and it was more than just MGM. They just got all the press). So 2023 was definitely underwhelming for me. I still made money of course.

Mental is apparently a team of one. D.Oz is apparently a team of many.

Possibilities include:

1. Mental is knocking the casinos dead,

Quote: Mental

I am up $24K for the day even before I have had breakfast
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but D.Oz is not, hasn't figured out how to do it that well yet.

2. Mental is not knocking the casinos dead, and is not giving us the true over all picture. D.Oz and team are doing the best that they can.

Quote: darkoz

I will state that this past year 2023 was difficult.
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Quote: MDawg

It is after all $20,000. $10,000. a week. But not every week. 😅
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That you still don't get or accept how ridiculous and meaningless such a claim is, contradicts any claims of sharp shooting math calculations.

I might find a penny on the ground a few days a year. So then I claim, "I find a penny a day?" How silly would I sound making such a claim once I explained that no, I meant, "not every day."

Quote: MDawg

Quote: MDawg

It is after all $20,000. $10,000. a week. But not every week. 😅
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That you still don't get or accept how ridiculous and meaningless such a claim is, contradicts any claims of sharp shooting math calculations.

I might find a penny on the ground a few days a year. So then I claim, "I find a penny a day?" How silly would I sound making such a claim once I explained that no, I meant, "not every day."
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When people claim to make $20 an hour do you take exception when you find out it's not every hour?

Quote: MDawg

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Admitting self defeat is unusual for you!

There was a real estate broker who used to advertise "selling a house a week since ____." Eventually, that claim was dropped. D.Oz doesn't get it. Apparently never will.

Quote: MDawg

There was a real estate broker who used to advertise "selling a house a week since ____." Eventually, that claim was dropped. D.Oz doesn't get it. Apparently never will.
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There was a gambler who claimed to beat baccarat every day of every week of every year

Eventually that claim was debunked.

MDawg doesn't get it. Apparently never will.

Back to Mental. I think his self analysis of what his ‘super piwer’ is, is SPOT ON.

I lack that superpower. I’m getting better at accepting losses when I know the bet was ‘good’, but I’m still not ‘there’ yet! A real AP needs to go after that +EV, using Kelly if applicable.

MDawg, you’ve got to stop comparing DarkOz and Mental. I’m pretty sure DO is mostly (all?) brick and mortar casinos. And Mental mostly on line. If you’ve read Mental’s revelations, he often has identified a need, say $100,000 coin in on a certain slot. He’ll just set his computer to keep betting $10 a spin for 10,000 spins and not even pay attention. DO needs ‘feet on the ground’.

Quote: SOOPOO

Back to Mental. I think his self analysis of what his ‘super piwer’ is, is SPOT ON.

I lack that superpower. I’m getting better at accepting losses when I know the bet was ‘good’, but I’m still not ‘there’ yet! A real AP needs to go after that +EV, using Kelly if applicable.

MDawg, you’ve got to stop comparing DarkOz and Mental. I’m pretty sure DO is mostly (all?) brick and mortar casinos. And Mental mostly on line. If you’ve read Mental’s revelations, he often has identified a need, say $100,000 coin in on a certain slot. He’ll just set his computer to keep betting $10 a spin for 10,000 spins and not even pay attention. DO needs ‘feet on the ground’.
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That is correct thanks.

I am fully B&M.

The last half of 2023 was definitely a challenging year for me online. I expect 2024 will be even more challenging.

I am registered at nine online casinos that give me steady plays and another six that give me sporadic plays. Six of my main casinos have blacklisted slot games for purposes of promotions and play through requirements (PTR) for bonus cash. The worst of these casinos just expanded their blacklist to 65 different slot games. Some of the new games on the blacklist must be mistakes because I would never consider playing them for promos. However, almost every high RTP game in the inventory is on the list. They sometimes miss certain high RTP games because their slot director doesn't really understand all of their 1200 slot games.

If the casino has a 1x PTR, it doesn't matter that much to me if the best available game has a 98% RTP or a 97% RTP. It costs me $10 extra in EV to play through $1000 in bonus cash 1x on the worse game. But if the PTR is 30x, the extra percentage point costs me $300 in EV and makes the promotion almost worthless. I would now expect to lose $900 capturing $1000 of promo cash. If the best available game has a 96.5% RTP, the whole promo becomes -EV unless there are some other components to the ROI equation.

As darkoz alluded to, you can only take promo money that the casino offers you. You cannot get blood from a stone. I keep on learning new tricks and finding new twists on promotions. I am still quite happy with my results and the theoretical income potential. But if you are not playing online already, you may have missed the golden age of online advantage play. I hope I am wrong.

January 1st is my personal Christmas.

When you play online regularly, the points that you accrue don't expire. I left six months of points accumulate at a few online casinos so the income would not be realized in the 2023 tax year. I used the points at one casino to buy fifteen '$250-2500 guaranteed' scratch off cards. I won over $7000 in 1x bonus cash from these cards. When I played the bonus through, I made a few hundred dollars. I have two other casinos where the most expensive item you can spend your points on is a $25 sports bet or $25 in 1x slot dollars. It takes four mouse clicks to purchase each card. If I purchase more than $400 in bonuses per day, the online bonus store sometimes locks me out for a month. I have enough points to buy 233 bonuses at $25 each, so this will take me most of the week to buy them all and play the bonuses through.

I used to get a 100% $5000 deposit match on New Years Day every year from one casino. This year I got nothing from them, but I got a total of $6000 in deposit matches and special New Year promos from other casinos. I expect to get paid almost $5000 for a loss rebate tomorrow or the day after. I expect to book about $25K of promo dollars by the 4th. It is an open question as to how much I lose playing all this money through on slots. I could easily end up in the red if my luck runs poorly. But January has generally been a big winning month for me every year.

Quote: Mental

When you play online regularly....
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So now Mental is getting all humble chumble mumble on us? versus the taunting defiance of

Quote: Mental

I am up $24K for the day even before I have had breakfast
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.

Still that is refreshing versus this "I make whatever a week" nonsense. Who cares what you made one week if it doesn't have anything to do with the figures that might add up to some kind of final or net calculation. But what is more astonishing is that someone who claims to be able to churn numbers for a living would not get this. And we are talking about a native English speaker.

Yeah so and so made $20K last week. Then he fell off a bridge and died. Or went bankrupt. Or never made that amount again. Tell that "I make whatever a week" to the bank when they ask what your income is.

What darkoz is doing seems to me to be very time consuming and full of managerial and legal complexity. I cannot imagine him doing it if it did not earn him a good hourly income after expenses. Everything he writes seems plausible to me.

I cannot say that about every adventure that I read about on these forums.

Both of youse are working a -EV game to try to get ahead with something else offered from the casino. What I am doing is not just +EV inherently but I also get all those kick backs you two are working. Plus comps. And even after all that I still don't even necessarily think it is worth it to me - I have far more profitable uses for my time.

Anyway, the point has been made.

Winners don't argue with losers, they negotiate. I'm just talking about a conversation I had last week with an insurance company we are suing, but it also applies to the way I approach casinos, because I consider them to be losers when someone like me enters the room.

Quote: MDawg

Both of youse are working a -EV game to try to get ahead with something else offered from the casino. What I am doing is not just +EV inherently but I also get all those kick backs you two are working. Plus comps. And even after all that I still don't even necessarily think it is worth it to me - I have far more profitable uses for my time.

Anyway, the point has been made.

Winners don't argue with losers, they negotiate. I'm just talking about a conversation I had last week with an insurance company we are suing, but it also applies to the way I approach casinos, because I consider them to be losers when someone like me enters the room.
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Baccarat is +ev inherently?

Wait are we talking about murdering the English language here?

You play slots that could be +EV (according to some) in a push dose buttons way, such that you don't expect to win anything.

I play Baccarat and Blackjack inherently +EV yes. Both. I have explained both of these in sufficient detail.

Just go back to being the only person we have encountered so far who finds meaning in "I make whatever a week" when it doesn't even mean, that.

Quote: darkoz

I really don't understand why a precise and exact description of my financial income (literally money pouring in one week, the next nothing due to various factors) is so meaningless or difficult to understand
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Quote: MDawg

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Quote: MDawg

Tell that "I make whatever a week" to the bank when they ask what your income is.
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Quote: MDawg

You play slots that could be +EV (according to some) in a push dose buttons way, such that you don't expect to win anything.

I play Baccarat and Blackjack inherently +EV yes. Both.
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Reminds me of when someone tells you they get paid "twice a month" and I go "Oh every other week?" And they reply "obviously don't you understand plain English? Twice a month is getting paid every other week."

And I laugh at those people who insist plain English is getting paid every other week equals twice a month. All 48 weeks of the year I suppose lmao.

Quote: MDawg

Both of youse are working a -EV game to try to get ahead with something else offered from the casino. What I am doing is not just +EV inherently but I also get all those kick backs you two are working. Plus comps. And even after all that I still don't even necessarily think it is worth it to me - I have far more profitable uses for my time.

Anyway, the point has been made.

Winners don't argue with losers, they negotiate. I'm just talking about a conversation I had last week with an insurance company we are suing, but it also applies to the way I approach casinos, because I consider them to be losers when someone like me enters the room.
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+EV is +EV no matter how you slice it and the money spends the same way.

I don't know why it matters if you're playing a -EV game in order to get + EV, or you're playing a +EV in order to get +EV?
Someone can be playing a +EV game straight up making $100 an hour or someone can be playing a -EV Game on a back-end promo making $1,000 per hour. I think most would prefer playing a -EV game to make $1,000 an hour.

Aside from free play, and rebates when playing at brick-and-mortar casinos they also get comps, including full RFB, suits, show tickets, events, Free drawings, free tournaments, and various other offers.

Uhh, no, MCallister. What I did was introduce D.Oz by way of comparison, that if indeed

Quote: Mental

I am up $24K for the day even before I have had breakfast

that D.Oz should be making $20K a minute versus $20K a day. Which of course led to the inevitable fact that D.Oz doesn't even present a coherent claim of how much he makes because the "I make $20K (or $10K) a week" claim is meaningless if it doesn't even apply to every week.

What a giant douche

Quote: mcallister3200

Too much free time sitting around the room eating canned fish perhaps.
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Quote: mcallister3200

What a giant douche
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Now why would you say a thing like that? Two posts from you in one day about MDawg, eh?

Quote: mcallister3200

What a giant douche
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What's sad is that MDawg is even claiming to have brought me into the thread conversation when it was the OP Mental himself in the original post.

Well then if you were in the thread to begin with, what's the problem with discussing you further?

Other than that McCallister can't control himself or express himself without insults.

Quote: MDawg

Well then if you were in the thread to begin with, what's the problem with discussing you further?

Other than that McCallister can't control himself or express himself without insults.
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Ask Sandybestdog and yourself.

You were the posters who said I hijacked the thread which mentions me AND my multicarding in the very first post.

It's funny you say I am the one who doesn't use plain English to explain themselves properly.

Time for a SOOPOO summary.

I’m very interested and thankful for Mental giving some details on how he beats the online casinos.

I think I may have been the first guy who called out DarkOz on the $20k a week thing. But geez, we now ALL know what he meant. He often gets enough offers to take in $20k a week. But there are weeks he doesn’t have such offers. That horse is so dead there is no carcass left to beat.

Question for Mental…. I think you mentioned NOW you are using 15 different casinos. How many have you used that have either banned you, or at least figured you out so you get no +EV offers? How many (if any?) have refused to pay you after you won there?

D.Oz, what I believe the other cool dog mentioned was hijacking in the context of your having to make the thread about how great you are.

I just quoted what he said and in that post the only commentary I made was along the same lines, and not using the word hijacking anyway.

SooPoo I don't bring up the nonsensical "$20K a week" in terms of that we don't know what it means. I bring it up to point out what it does mean - nothing.

Quote: SOOPOO

Time for a SOOPOO summary.

I’m very interested and thankful for Mental giving some details on how he beats the online casinos.

I think I may have been the first guy who called out DarkOz on the $20k a week thing. But geez, we now ALL know what he meant. He often gets enough offers to take in $20k a week. But there are weeks he doesn’t have such offers. That horse is so dead there is no carcass left to beat.

Question for Mental…. I think you mentioned NOW you are using 15 different casinos. How many have you used that have either banned you, or at least figured you out so you get no +EV offers? How many (if any?) have refused to pay you after you won there?
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Perfect summary thanks.

And I too was thinking of those questions for Mental so I second them

Quote: MDawg

Well if you'd read a little more of the thread instead of the usual



you'd know that the point of what I was saying is that playing something inherently -EV explains why it doesn't always work out. While if the scheme is +EV you'd expect more often than not that it will work out. Especially if in both cases they have the same additional factors like loss rebates and free play / promo chips pumping up the over all gain.
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I don't even know what inherently plus EV means, that's not a normal gambling term. You would have to explain and give an example of something legitimate that is inherently plus EV. I will assume by inherently+EV you mean that you have an advantage on the game itself.

There are not too many casino games that are inherently plus EV where you I.E. you have an edge off the top. Most advantages in the casinos come from Advantage Play angles and methods, not inherent advantages.

Until you can describe your advantage, how you obtain your advantage, and what your advantage is, most people around here don't believe you.

When it comes to casino games, I think it's going to be much harder to win a lot of money if you have an advantage of the top/ and can beat the game straight up.

The concept of what darkoz does is simple. The execution is complex and takes a certain kind of driven personality with talents I don't have and don't care to acquire. He has expenses and profit sharing. I have essentially zero expenses and I don't have to deal with people and recruit partners I can trust with large amounts of cash.

I used to think I was a people person, but then I met actual people and I changed my mind.

The online properties that are stingy with bonuses are not getting market share. CZR is really stingy among the big names. If you look at their handle and gaming win, they are killing themselves by being stingy. DK, FanDuel, MGM, and GNOG are gaining market share with high rollers in my state and leaving CZR with a few low rollers. Some smaller casinos are just trying keep expenses low and hope some customers accidentally show up at their door. That might work for them. The CZR model is high cost and low volume. That is a bad recipe.

I have won a number of multistate leaderboards. I have never come close to winning a DK leaderboard and I sometimes don't even cash. Other casinos must be envious of DK's degen high roller clientele. Some DK players are willing to play any amount of coin in to win a leaderboard with no regard to the value of the prize. There has been a trend towards multiplier leaderboards recently. Low rollers can win multiplier leaderboards with a bit of luck.

Quote: AxelWolf

When it comes to casino games, I think it's going to be much harder to win a lot of money if you have an advantage of the top/ and can beat the game straight up.

Do you remember about 20 years ago Williams put out a funky video poker game that was over 105%? To your point, I don't think anyone got rich on it because it was gone in about two weeks. Sorry, I can't remember the name or really anything about it other than it was very different.

Quote: Mental

The concept of what darkoz does is simple. The execution is complex and takes a certain kind of driven personality with talents I don't have and don't care to acquire. He has expenses and profit sharing. I have essentially zero expenses and I don't have to deal with people and recruit partners I can trust with large amounts of cash.

I used to think I was a people person, but then I met actual people and I changed my mind.

The online properties that are stingy with bonuses are not getting market share. CZR is really stingy among the big names. If you look at their handle and gaming win, they are killing themselves by being stingy. DK, FanDuel, MGM, and GNOG are gaining market share with high rollers in my state and leaving CZR with a few low rollers. Some smaller casinos are just trying keep expenses low and hope some customers accidentally show up at their door. That might work for them. The CZR model is high cost and low volume. That is a bad recipe.

I have won a number of multistate leaderboards. I have never come close to winning a DK leaderboard and I sometimes don't even cash. Other casinos must be envious of DK's degen high roller clientele. Some DK players are willing to play any amount of coin in to win a leaderboard with no regard to the value of the prize. There has been a trend towards multiplier leaderboards recently. Low rollers can win multiplier leaderboards with a bit of luck.
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Thank you

You might find it interesting that I am not a people person myself. Very few people are allowed in my home and I would never have a party in my home. I rarely attend parties or large gatherings.

I believe my ability to run such a complex operation is my past film making career where dealing with and coordination of multiple people and assets (even people you don't like) just come with the territory.

Interestingly that also is where my ability to weather casinos clamping down comes from. Film making is filled with disaster (film ruined at the lab, weather destroying sets the list goes on).

And of course film makers are always getting big paydays followed by famine as they move from project to project, as one film is a box office smash, the next a critical failure.

So I kinda was groomed for what I do in my past career.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

When it comes to casino games, I think it's going to be much harder to win a lot of money if you have an advantage of the top/ and can beat the game straight up.

Do you remember about 20 years ago Williams put out a funky video poker game that was over 105%? To your point, I don't think anyone got rich on it because it was gone in about two weeks. Sorry, I can't remember the name or really anything about it other than it was very different.
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I know you're talking about but, I can't remember the name, I know they had it at the Stardust for a few days. I know it had like multi-level or multiple-tiered payouts on the pay schedule, almost like it had two different pay schedules, is that the one you're talking about?

If we take a look at all American Poker, the 103% version, back in the day, there were very few people who knew the strategy well enough to play it. 50 cents and $1 denominations would pop up once in a while, but it would be gone within three days to a week. It's rare that you'll ever see dollar denomination full-pay deuces, when they do pop up they don't seem to last for very long, and that's only a very small .7 edge. People usually aren't playing them for that .7 edge, they're playing for all the backend stuff, and that's where the real money comes in.


If the advantage is too big, it gets noticed and taken away.

The reason why the advantages that come through playing -EV Games last so long is because there's a disconnect between whoever is making those decisions and marketing. Generally, marketing isn't factored in.

Quote: SOOPOO

Time for a SOOPOO summary.

I’m very interested and thankful for Mental giving some details on how he beats the online casinos.

I think I may have been the first guy who called out DarkOz on the $20k a week thing. But geez, we now ALL know what he meant. He often gets enough offers to take in $20k a week. But there are weeks he doesn’t have such offers. That horse is so dead there is no carcass left to beat.

Question for Mental…. I think you mentioned NOW you are using 15 different casinos. How many have you used that have either banned you, or at least figured you out so you get no +EV offers? How many (if any?) have refused to pay you after you won there?
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I am only giving you an outline of what is important about playing online casinos. I am not into giving out any details or recipes.

I got a lifetime ban from one casino years ago when I was a newbie. I followed the aggressive strategy for the signup bonus and got lucky. They cashed out my entire winnings and told me never to come back. Now, when I sign up for a new casino, I always try to look like a model customer for the probationary period. I might even do slightly -EV play to work my way towards VIP status. You can either kill the cow and eat the cow or you can tend the cow and milk it for years.

I did get stripped of all promos by one other casino. I made the mistake of winning $50K in two months. My bad! I was able to slowly withdraw my winnings with no pushback. I keep on checking to see if they restored my promos, but there is still nothing.

I spend a lot of time thinking about longevity. I know I have passed on a lot of EV because I think aggressive bonus whoring will attract attention to my account and my W/L record. I have never been refused a payout by a US-regulated casino. I have had my accounts frozen for investigations numerous times. Eventually they unfreeze me. After a while, I think the managers get tired of investigating my play.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

When it comes to casino games, I think it's going to be much harder to win a lot of money if you have an advantage of the top/ and can beat the game straight up.

Do you remember about 20 years ago Williams put out a funky video poker game that was over 105%? To your point, I don't think anyone got rich on it because it was gone in about two weeks. Sorry, I can't remember the name or really anything about it other than it was very different.
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Was it Big E poker? That game was like chess with opening moves, a midgame, and an endgame. I never even saw the game in person. I know the computer-perfect play was clearly very +EV, but there was no simple strategy. I stopped working on the analysis when I heard that it was disappearing from Vegas casinos.

Quote: Mental

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

When it comes to casino games, I think it's going to be much harder to win a lot of money if you have an advantage of the top/ and can beat the game straight up.

Do you remember about 20 years ago Williams put out a funky video poker game that was over 105%? To your point, I don't think anyone got rich on it because it was gone in about two weeks. Sorry, I can't remember the name or really anything about it other than it was very different.
link to original post

Was it Big E poker? That game was like chess with opening moves, a midgame, and an endgame. I never even saw the game in person. I know the computer-perfect play was clearly very +EV, but there was no simple strategy. I stopped working on the analysis when I heard that it was disappearing from Vegas casinos.
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No, was just like a regular video poker game.

They did come out with a video checker game that you could play for real money. I only saw it at one location and not for too long I didn't know if there was any skill or not to it.

OK maybe Darkoz didn't hijack this thread but the point remains. Casinos fear him like I fear a rat in my house. I'm not actually afraid of it, I just want it gone. His strategy can make money but it's not exactly the stuff of legends, and I've done plenty of it myself. Phil Ivey walking through a table games section with an Asian companion is something the casinos fear.

Quote: SOOPOO

Time for a SOOPOO summary.

I’m very interested and thankful for Mental giving some details on how he beats the online casinos.

I think I may have been the first guy who called out DarkOz on the $20k a week thing. But geez, we now ALL know what he meant. He often gets enough offers to take in $20k a week. But there are weeks he doesn’t have such offers. That horse is so dead there is no carcass left to beat.

Question for Mental…. I think you mentioned NOW you are using 15 different casinos. How many have you used that have either banned you, or at least figured you out so you get no +EV offers? How many (if any?) have refused to pay you after you won there?
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If you are playing at the domestic sites you have a 0% chance of getting stiffed, assuming you didn't do anything crazy and I can't even think of what that would be. Even if you violate the terms and conditions they wouldn't take your money they would just cut you off and at worst close your account. There is nothing unusual about playing a promotion or bonus, that's why they offer them. Whereas the legal sportsbooks will sometimes cut you off after just one or 2 bets, the casino side has a very long leash. I have had only one account shut down and it was a place I had heard others were shut down too. One other place after 3 years of consistently playing bonuses(with plenty of play through) just sent an email saying your account is ineligible for promotions. That's usually what they will do.

Quote: Sandybestdog

His strategy can make money but it's not exactly the stuff of legends.
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And yet so many people discuss it.

Legendary!

Quote: Mental

Online casinos can have well over 1000 unique games. I try to find the best game to play based on the terms of any play-to-earn offer. Often VP and table games are excluded. Sometimes, I cannot find any game that works out by the numbers.

Are you a programmer? If you're playing an online game that just needs pressing a button repeatedly, you could probably use some software (macro) that repeatedly presses the virtual button at a measured rate and is able to detect a target amount and/or a screen change where it will stop or notify you.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Mental

Online casinos can have well over 1000 unique games. I try to find the best game to play based on the terms of any play-to-earn offer. Often VP and table games are excluded. Sometimes, I cannot find any game that works out by the numbers.

Are you a programmer? If you're playing an online game that just needs pressing a button repeatedly, you could probably use some software (macro) that repeatedly presses the virtual button at a measured rate and is able to detect a target amount and/or a screen change where it will stop or notify you.
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A lot of them come with Auto Spin already built-in. Some built-in Auto spins get pretty elaborate. You can adjust the amount you want to win or lose, you can have it stop on certain win amounts or bonus rounds.


I've even seen a game online where you can play tens of thousands of spins within minutes and it just tells you the results. You adjust the amount you want to bet per spin and it does its thing. I think you can recall the results of each individual spins as well.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Mental

Online casinos can have well over 1000 unique games. I try to find the best game to play based on the terms of any play-to-earn offer. Often VP and table games are excluded. Sometimes, I cannot find any game that works out by the numbers.

Are you a programmer? If you're playing an online game that just needs pressing a button repeatedly, you could probably use some software (macro) that repeatedly presses the virtual button at a measured rate and is able to detect a target amount and/or a screen change where it will stop or notify you.
link to original post

Playing with bots is usually prohibited in TOS. Since 99% of online slot games come with autoplay built in, I infer that the casino rule is really about bot play on poker games. Still, using software to initiate slot play is against the TOS and I don't want to have a public discussion about violating TOS.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Mental

Online casinos can have well over 1000 unique games. I try to find the best game to play based on the terms of any play-to-earn offer. Often VP and table games are excluded. Sometimes, I cannot find any game that works out by the numbers.

Are you a programmer? If you're playing an online game that just needs pressing a button repeatedly, you could probably use some software (macro) that repeatedly presses the virtual button at a measured rate and is able to detect a target amount and/or a screen change where it will stop or notify you.
link to original post

A lot of them come with Auto Spin already built-in. Some built-in Auto spins get pretty elaborate. You can adjust the amount you want to win or lose, you can have it stop on certain win amounts or bonus rounds.


I've even seen a game online where you can play tens of thousands of spins within minutes and it just tells you the results. You adjust the amount you want to bet per spin and it does its thing. I think you can recall the results of each individual spins as well.
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The feature where a game stops after a certain loss is useful loss rebate promos.

I hate when the games that stop on a big win or a bonus feature.

I have never seen the instant play games Axel describes. The market is being flooded by the 'Lucky Tap' type of games that play at a rate of 50 games per minute. For example, you can auto-play 1000 games where a dart is thrown at a wall of balloons for prizes. If a dart misses, the next dart is thrown a half second later. Winning throws take longer to complete. You can get 150K coin in per hour on some of these games.

Quote: Mental

The last half of 2023 was definitely a challenging year for me online. I expect 2024 will be even more challenging.

I am registered at nine online casinos that give me steady plays and another six that give me sporadic plays. Six of my main casinos have blacklisted slot games for purposes of promotions and play through requirements (PTR) for bonus cash. The worst of these casinos just expanded their blacklist to 65 different slot games. Some of the new games on the blacklist must be mistakes because I would never consider playing them for promos. However, almost every high RTP game in the inventory is on the list. They sometimes miss certain high RTP games because their slot director doesn't really understand all of their 1200 slot games.

If the casino has a 1x PTR, it doesn't matter that much to me if the best available game has a 98% RTP or a 97% RTP. It costs me $10 extra in EV to play through $1000 in bonus cash 1x on the worse game. But if the PTR is 30x, the extra percentage point costs me $300 in EV and makes the promotion almost worthless. I would now expect to lose $900 capturing $1000 of promo cash. If the best available game has a 96.5% RTP, the whole promo becomes -EV unless there are some other components to the ROI equation.

As darkoz alluded to, you can only take promo money that the casino offers you. You cannot get blood from a stone. I keep on learning new tricks and finding new twists on promotions. I am still quite happy with my results and the theoretical income potential. But if you are not playing online already, you may have missed the golden age of online advantage play. I hope I am wrong.
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I thought about doing online casinos instead of b&m but i remember the old days of online poker around mid-2000s.
I was multi-tabling poker for hrs and hrs.
It was lucrative, mainly because of rake back.

But i never left the house for long periods of time and only to buy food. (And i probably would have never left the house if Uber Eats was around that time.)
Thankfully (to me), Pres Bush Jr nuked the online poker scene and enabled me to leave the house. No more golden handcuffs to the computer.

I find AP'ing b&m casinos more fun than playing online (but less lucrative per hr).
It's something to walk machine to machine and enjoy finding a play. And basically just walking and getting in steps for my health.

My main casino has mostly friendly APs and i've made friends with some of them.
The asshats are still not that nasty in that they won't muscle in if you're waiting. They just sit at a central location monitoring multiple banks at once claiming all for themselves. (How to combat this?)

At the end of the day, i'll take a 'job' i enjoy than max $ per hr.