Mental
Mental
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February 25th, 2023 at 7:57:49 AM permalink
I don't want to take screen shots because I would be violating my TOS with online casinos. However, I can describe the state of certain slots that have persistent state. Casinos have become fearful or greedy after the Ocean Magic debacle. I am not finding OM or Golden Egypt anywhere.

Regal Riches:
Blue Wilds starts at 5 gems
Purple Minor does not exist in online version
Green Major starts at 40 gems
Yellow Mega starts at 88 gems

Scarab starts after game #1 with no scarab frames locked in place. Scarab is +EV if you start after game #10 and the game has been configured with a typical online 96%+ RTP. Scarab Link starts at game #3 of 10 payed. I don't know much about the game.

Magic of the Nile starts with no gems in any tower. This is really bad. The average during play should be around three.

Most progressive games start at totally unplayable meter numbers. In some cases, you are playing with all jackpots at reset. The RTP in that state is certainly going to be awful.

Hexbreak3r starts with three symbols in the center column. The RTP is 94.2% and the actual RTP with the center column at 3 would generally be soul crushing. However, the # of ways is set to 3150 (5,7,3,5,6). I pay little attention to Hex3, but I assume this was determined by IGT to be a safe starting state. Does anyone have SWAG at the neutral # of ways?

Any other games I should be looking at for persistent state? I would prefer games that very quick cycles like Ocean Magic or modest cycles like Magic of the Nile. The Hex3 center column has a very long cycle.
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rxwine
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February 25th, 2023 at 8:57:49 AM permalink
Does an online casino have the option of presenting the same game with different starting points depending on who’s playing?
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Mental
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February 25th, 2023 at 9:14:43 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Does an online casino have the option of presenting the same game with different starting points depending on who’s playing?
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Yes, the game state is saved for the particular player and total bet. If you built three stacks of two gems on Magic of the Nile, it is much more fair if those stacks are not able to be vultured by other players after you left the game. This makes these games much more attractive to casual players versus B&M games where they always seem to be starting with less than three gems. Also, you cannot change to a higher denomination and take the gems with you. Every denomination keeps track of its own state.

Every first time player sees the same 'last game result'. If you have paid attention, you might know that most VP games come out of the factory with the same losing hand on every game on every denomination.
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rxwine
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February 25th, 2023 at 9:34:33 AM permalink
Thanks, but what I was wondering is, if a particular player logs in, might the game change the starting feature depending on if they detect a player vulturing bonuses on a regular basis as opposed to a player more “generous” to the casino’s bottom line.
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Mental
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February 25th, 2023 at 9:47:10 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Thanks, but what I was wondering is, if a particular player logs in, might the game change the starting feature depending on if they detect a player vulturing bonuses on a regular basis as opposed to a player more “generous” to the casino’s bottom line.
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Since it is not possible to vulture any starting game anymore, this would seem unnecessary. When they found out about the OM game problem, OM changed for everyone or disappeared for everyone. I never saw OM online.

They could give casual players a better starting state, I suppose. But the casual player would not know this unless they advertised the fact that some players were getting a better deal. This seems like it would be problematic with regulators. They are able to sweeten the pot for certain promoted games by making them eligible for bonuses. This is clearly allowed by the regs and they do flood my inbox with mail with point multipliers, loss rebates, or leaderboards only good on the promoted games. The casual players understand this advertising but may not know that the starting state of a game is especially good.
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Mental
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February 25th, 2023 at 9:47:10 AM permalink
duplicate post
Last edited by: Mental on Feb 25, 2023
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Sandybestdog
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February 25th, 2023 at 2:29:23 PM permalink
The casino is not going to be able to or want to waste their time changing the set up of games cause they think someone is trying to take advantage of the starting status. It’s probably illegal as well. Every game and every denom starts a certain way for each user and that status is saved after each spin. So if a progressive starts at $10 and the user spins it and it goes to $10.01, if he comes back a month later it will still be $10.01. Ultimate X is now on many sites. It just saves every denom and game after each spin just like the way a machine would in the casino.
rxwine
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February 25th, 2023 at 2:47:53 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

The casino is not going to be able to or want to waste their time changing the set up of games cause they think someone is trying to take advantage of the starting status. It’s probably illegal as well. Every game and every denom starts a certain way for each user and that status is saved after each spin. So if a progressive starts at $10 and the user spins it and it goes to $10.01, if he comes back a month later it will still be $10.01. Ultimate X is now on many sites. It just saves every denom and game after each spin just like the way a machine would in the casino.
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I wasn’t sure online casinos have unified regulations now. Also I expect such a system change would be built in an algorithm that would trigger as soon as a player logs in. So, it would occur without extra work of any kind.

I know player cards automatically add points according to different status — so like that, but for online logins.
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Mental
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February 25th, 2023 at 3:02:58 PM permalink
Many online casinos have over 1000 slots. Could you imagine the security issues if the server was dishing out different versions of the game to different players based on some complicated algorithm? Before you knw it, certain select players would be starting Scarab on game #9 with 10 frames in place. What manager wants to be constantly checking every game to see how it is being initiated for every player?

Casinos cannot blindly trust all their IT people, period. They have to keep things as simple as possible to prevent inside jobs.
Last edited by: Mental on Feb 25, 2023
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DRich
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February 25th, 2023 at 3:29:55 PM permalink
Quote: Mental



Casinos cannot trust blindly their IT people, period. They have to keep things as simple as possible to prevent inside jobs.



You might be surprised. As one who worked with I.T. for Vegas casinos for nearly 30 years, nothing would surprise me.
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heatmap
heatmap
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February 25th, 2023 at 3:43:02 PM permalink
the biggest threat to any security situation is people simply because they cant be trusted... every gaffe and exploit has been executed at levels higher than any of us can imagine and its because of people
AxelWolf
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February 25th, 2023 at 10:54:06 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

The casino is not going to be able to or want to waste their time changing the set up of games cause they think someone is trying to take advantage of the starting status.

That's certainly not true.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mental
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February 26th, 2023 at 5:08:49 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Sandybestdog

The casino is not going to be able to or want to waste their time changing the set up of games cause they think someone is trying to take advantage of the starting status.

That's certainly not true.
link to original post

The casino generally cannot do anything about it by themselves except take the game offline. They need to get the game manufacturer to make changes to the game setup or any other aspect of its operation.

The setup of Scarab has been changed, but I see those same changes propagate to many unaffiliated online casinos. The starting screen has the same symbols and same game 1-of-10 on all sites. I would say that is good evidence that the manufacturer, IGT, was involved in the changes.

If they believe the starting state is exploitable, they will ask the manufacturer to fix the problem and send a software update. Someone was asking if they have different versions for AP customers and casual players. This makes no sense to me. Casinos are certainly not having their own staff modifying the game software.

Some online casinos have their own branded games. I assume they leave the development and testing to an experienced outside firm. However, they might have closer relationship to that firm than most casinos have.
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February 26th, 2023 at 6:51:31 AM permalink
werent people abusing the starting state in PA... i cant find it now but i could have sworn they werent paying the people and the casinos had to be taken to court... this may have been in NJ though i am not sure
Mental
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February 26th, 2023 at 7:14:52 AM permalink
https://www.casino.org/news/new-jersey-online-gamblers-detect-slot-flaw-win-nearly-1m/
Published February 28, 2019

"Online gamblers in New Jersey detected a flaw in the popular interactive slot game “Ocean Magic,” and used the defect to their advantage to win nearly $1 million."

I think GE was also exploited.
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