Starting state of online games

I don't want to take screen shots because I would be violating my TOS with online casinos. However, I can describe the state of certain slots that have persistent state. Casinos have become fearful or greedy after the Ocean Magic debacle. I am not finding OM or Golden Egypt anywhere.

Regal Riches:
Blue Wilds starts at 5 gems
Purple Minor does not exist in online version
Green Major starts at 40 gems
Yellow Mega starts at 88 gems

Scarab starts after game #1 with no scarab frames locked in place. Scarab is +EV if you start after game #10 and the game has been configured with a typical online 96%+ RTP. Scarab Link starts at game #3 of 10 payed. I don't know much about the game.

Magic of the Nile starts with no gems in any tower. This is really bad. The average during play should be around three.

Most progressive games start at totally unplayable meter numbers. In some cases, you are playing with all jackpots at reset. The RTP in that state is certainly going to be awful.

Hexbreak3r starts with three symbols in the center column. The RTP is 94.2% and the actual RTP with the center column at 3 would generally be soul crushing. However, the # of ways is set to 3150 (5,7,3,5,6). I pay little attention to Hex3, but I assume this was determined by IGT to be a safe starting state. Does anyone have SWAG at the neutral # of ways?

Any other games I should be looking at for persistent state? I would prefer games that very quick cycles like Ocean Magic or modest cycles like Magic of the Nile. The Hex3 center column has a very long cycle.

Does an online casino have the option of presenting the same game with different starting points depending on who’s playing?

Quote: rxwine

Does an online casino have the option of presenting the same game with different starting points depending on who’s playing?
link to original post

Yes, the game state is saved for the particular player and total bet. If you built three stacks of two gems on Magic of the Nile, it is much more fair if those stacks are not able to be vultured by other players after you left the game. This makes these games much more attractive to casual players versus B&M games where they always seem to be starting with less than three gems. Also, you cannot change to a higher denomination and take the gems with you. Every denomination keeps track of its own state.

Every first time player sees the same 'last game result'. If you have paid attention, you might know that most VP games come out of the factory with the same losing hand on every game on every denomination.

Thanks, but what I was wondering is, if a particular player logs in, might the game change the starting feature depending on if they detect a player vulturing bonuses on a regular basis as opposed to a player more “generous” to the casino’s bottom line.

Quote: rxwine

Thanks, but what I was wondering is, if a particular player logs in, might the game change the starting feature depending on if they detect a player vulturing bonuses on a regular basis as opposed to a player more “generous” to the casino’s bottom line.
link to original post

Since it is not possible to vulture any starting game anymore, this would seem unnecessary. When they found out about the OM game problem, OM changed for everyone or disappeared for everyone. I never saw OM online.

They could give casual players a better starting state, I suppose. But the casual player would not know this unless they advertised the fact that some players were getting a better deal. This seems like it would be problematic with regulators. They are able to sweeten the pot for certain promoted games by making them eligible for bonuses. This is clearly allowed by the regs and they do flood my inbox with mail with point multipliers, loss rebates, or leaderboards only good on the promoted games. The casual players understand this advertising but may not know that the starting state of a game is especially good.

duplicate post

The casino is not going to be able to or want to waste their time changing the set up of games cause they think someone is trying to take advantage of the starting status. It’s probably illegal as well. Every game and every denom starts a certain way for each user and that status is saved after each spin. So if a progressive starts at $10 and the user spins it and it goes to $10.01, if he comes back a month later it will still be $10.01. Ultimate X is now on many sites. It just saves every denom and game after each spin just like the way a machine would in the casino.

Quote: Sandybestdog

The casino is not going to be able to or want to waste their time changing the set up of games cause they think someone is trying to take advantage of the starting status. It’s probably illegal as well. Every game and every denom starts a certain way for each user and that status is saved after each spin. So if a progressive starts at $10 and the user spins it and it goes to $10.01, if he comes back a month later it will still be $10.01. Ultimate X is now on many sites. It just saves every denom and game after each spin just like the way a machine would in the casino.
link to original post

I wasn’t sure online casinos have unified regulations now. Also I expect such a system change would be built in an algorithm that would trigger as soon as a player logs in. So, it would occur without extra work of any kind.

I know player cards automatically add points according to different status — so like that, but for online logins.

Many online casinos have over 1000 slots. Could you imagine the security issues if the server was dishing out different versions of the game to different players based on some complicated algorithm? Before you knw it, certain select players would be starting Scarab on game #9 with 10 frames in place. What manager wants to be constantly checking every game to see how it is being initiated for every player?

Casinos cannot blindly trust all their IT people, period. They have to keep things as simple as possible to prevent inside jobs.

Quote: Mental

Casinos cannot trust blindly their IT people, period. They have to keep things as simple as possible to prevent inside jobs.

You might be surprised. As one who worked with I.T. for Vegas casinos for nearly 30 years, nothing would surprise me.

the biggest threat to any security situation is people simply because they cant be trusted... every gaffe and exploit has been executed at levels higher than any of us can imagine and its because of people

Quote: Sandybestdog

The casino is not going to be able to or want to waste their time changing the set up of games cause they think someone is trying to take advantage of the starting status.

That's certainly not true.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Sandybestdog

The casino is not going to be able to or want to waste their time changing the set up of games cause they think someone is trying to take advantage of the starting status.

That's certainly not true.
link to original post

The casino generally cannot do anything about it by themselves except take the game offline. They need to get the game manufacturer to make changes to the game setup or any other aspect of its operation.

The setup of Scarab has been changed, but I see those same changes propagate to many unaffiliated online casinos. The starting screen has the same symbols and same game 1-of-10 on all sites. I would say that is good evidence that the manufacturer, IGT, was involved in the changes.

If they believe the starting state is exploitable, they will ask the manufacturer to fix the problem and send a software update. Someone was asking if they have different versions for AP customers and casual players. This makes no sense to me. Casinos are certainly not having their own staff modifying the game software.

Some online casinos have their own branded games. I assume they leave the development and testing to an experienced outside firm. However, they might have closer relationship to that firm than most casinos have.

werent people abusing the starting state in PA... i cant find it now but i could have sworn they werent paying the people and the casinos had to be taken to court... this may have been in NJ though i am not sure

https://www.casino.org/news/new-jersey-online-gamblers-detect-slot-flaw-win-nearly-1m/
Published February 28, 2019

"Online gamblers in New Jersey detected a flaw in the popular interactive slot game “Ocean Magic,” and used the defect to their advantage to win nearly $1 million."

I think GE was also exploited.

Quote: Mental

"I would prefer games that very quick cycles like Ocean Magic or modest cycles like Magic of the Nile. The Hex3 center column has a very long cycle."
link to original post

The question of which persistent-state games are actually worth looking at is exactly where I think things become much more interesting than simply identifying that a game remembers progress.

I've spent a lot of time testing this type of behaviour across online slots, and I tend to separate three different layers:

The visible state — what the player sees building up.
The saved game state — what is actually stored for that player/stake/session.
The wallet state — what happens when the funding source changes.

That third layer is the one I find particularly interesting.

A game can genuinely save a player's progress and still be completely uninteresting in practice. The questions I normally test after confirming persistence are things like:

Does the state survive reconnects?
Is it completely independent by stake?
What exactly consumes or resets it?
Does it survive changes in the way the next spins are funded?
And specifically, what happens if a state was accumulated while playing with promotional funds and later spins are made from cash balance?

I've tested thousands of online games over the years, and most get discarded somewhere in that process. The ones I keep are the cases where the state is real and the behaviour under those transitions is actually meaningful.

So I agree that knowing the starting state is important, but for me the more interesting question is what happens after the player has created their own state and the surrounding account/wallet conditions change.

Have you ever tested any of these games specifically across bonus-to-cash balance transitions?

I've found that layer surprisingly inconsistent between different games and implementations.

Another question: Does the help screen state that the game will be finished automatically behind the scenes if you abandon it for a certain length of time?

For your purposes, the stated time is usually 12-24 hours. This disclosure gives the casino safe harbor to finish your game without your input, but it won't happen unless they have the system configured to actually do this.

Live dealer BJ will finish your game even if you disconnect using default rules that might be very bad for you. But, the game has to go on and the other players won't wait forever for you to reconnect.

For online slots, you can usually leave games unfinished for days or weeks and come back to finish them. But, if it is critical to your scheme, you need to test this. I recently signed up for a new casino that uses Strive Gaming for player account management. I noticed a lot of games autocompleting the day after I left them unfinished. This is the first casino that I played at that used Strive, so I think they are probably implementing the auto-complete.

This can be very bad for you or it can be benign depending on the game rules and whatever promo exploit you are running. I doubt that you want the casino auto-completing your VP hands randomly. I hope you indicate which cards you intend to hold before you disconnect.

I tested an IGT VP game. I logged out after holding two queens. When I logged back in and reopened the game, it came back up with the same dealt cards and same bet level. But, no cards were held. So, that part of the game state was not stored upon logging out. On the plus side, I see nothing on the help screen about autocomplete. You might be able to leave this VP hand unfinished until you die or are kicked out of the site.

Quote: PersistentEdge

Quote: Mental

"I would prefer games that very quick cycles like Ocean Magic or modest cycles like Magic of the Nile. The Hex3 center column has a very long cycle."
link to original post

The question of which persistent-state games are actually worth looking at is exactly where I think things become much more interesting than simply identifying that a game remembers progress.

I've spent a lot of time testing this type of behaviour across online slots, and I tend to separate three different layers:

The visible state — what the player sees building up.
The saved game state — what is actually stored for that player/stake/session.
The wallet state — what happens when the funding source changes.

That third layer is the one I find particularly interesting.

A game can genuinely save a player's progress and still be completely uninteresting in practice. The questions I normally test after confirming persistence are things like:

Does the state survive reconnects?
Is it completely independent by stake?
What exactly consumes or resets it?
Does it survive changes in the way the next spins are funded?
And specifically, what happens if a state was accumulated while playing with promotional funds and later spins are made from cash balance?

I've tested thousands of online games over the years, and most get discarded somewhere in that process. The ones I keep are the cases where the state is real and the behaviour under those transitions is actually meaningful.

So I agree that knowing the starting state is important, but for me the more interesting question is what happens after the player has created their own state and the surrounding account/wallet conditions change.

Have you ever tested any of these games specifically across bonus-to-cash balance transitions?

I've found that layer surprisingly inconsistent between different games and implementations.
link to original post

I like your approach to thinking outside the box with slots. However, I see very little reason to engage in this sort of bonus slight of hand. I prefer to operate in the limited number of state-regulated casinos available to me. It is important to me not to get kicked out because I used tricks to optimize a small bonus. I can usually do the wagering requirements at a very high RTP, and it is not worth it to me to risked getting my account frozen.

If you have hundreds of offshore casinos to exploit, then maybe your calculus is different. But, this kind of bonus hustling is the reason that offshore joints are so sweaty.

Quote: Mental

For online slots, you can usually leave games unfinished for days or weeks and come back to finish them. But, if it is critical to your scheme, you need to test this.
link to original post

Yes, I test this as well. I've actually seen several different behaviours.

On some games the help/rules explicitly state how long an unfinished round will be stored before it's automatically resolved, and the period can vary by game.

I've also seen a different approach at operator level. MegaCasino, for example, can force you back into the game when it detects that you have an unfinished state pending. You effectively can't just leave that state there, move to another slot and keep creating pending states elsewhere — it makes you resolve the existing one first.

That's one of the reasons I test this game by game and operator by operator. Persistence alone doesn't tell you enough; timeout, auto-completion and forced continuation can completely change how the same type of mechanic behaves.