BitCoin

Quote: slyther

The article I read talked about how you can write computer programs to 'mine' (create?) bit coins by solving complex math problems. How is that different from a government or reserve bank printing money?

Great question. There is a small amount of inflation in bitcoins right now as they pay the miners in new bitcoin. In other wortds, it is true that they are "solving complex math problems" but my understanding is that these miners are also helping to make the whole thing work. The amount of inflation from this is negligable(especially compared to Uncle Ben who has trippled the monetary base) and, at least for now, the plan is to end the inflation when the total number of bitcoins reaches 21,000,000. At that point no more will be created unless the bitcoin "market" agrees to continue using inflation to pay the miners instead of, say, small transaction fees.

I've been mining bitcoins since early 2011. I am pretty experienced and it has been very profitable. If anybody has any questions feel free to ask them.

The talk of bitcoins being a scam is obviously wrong. It isn't a scam. It is just excessively risky due to price fluctuations.

Quote: bbvk05

I've been mining bitcoins since early 2011. I am pretty experienced and it has been very profitable. If anybody has any questions feel free to ask them.

The talk of bitcoins being a scam is obviously wrong. It isn't a scam. It is just excessively risky due to price fluctuations.

Cool. How does the cost of electricity compare to what you make daily/weekly mining?

Quote: EvenBob

The guy standing on the corner in the hood
selling crack takes Bitcoin? Really? I'd bet real
money he's never heard of it.

At a poker game... I had a guy talking about how he uses Bitcoins to buy his weed... and have it shipped in from the West Coast/Oversees....

Well he was actually talking about some of those weed products that are being sold mostly in States like California and Colorada.... but also Amsterdam. Like THC Oils and what-not. I don't know the specifics of how all of it works... but I can confirm that people use Bitcoins to buy and sell drugs...

Quote: bbvk05

I've been mining bitcoins since early 2011. I am pretty experienced and it has been very profitable. If anybody has any questions feel free to ask them.
.

A lot of experts say Bitcoin has a limited shelf life
and it will go bust sooner or later, when something
happens to make people lose faith in it. Do you agree?

Quote: bigfoot66

Cool. How does the cost of electricity compare to what you make daily/weekly mining?

2011-mid2012:

-there were months were it was breakeven or a slight loss at the exchange rate of the time. I mostly held during this time.
-most months had something like 250 in profit with all factors included. I carried forward a lot of coins because I expected the price to rise.

mid2012 to now:

-it is unbelievably profitable. I luckily timed a hardware upgrade during a major downturn in price. Accordingly I mined quite a few coins and held during the low period. I believed their price would go up, and fortunately was right.
-more miners come online during price increases. There are 3x more miners online now than 2 months ago.
-electricity is a drop in the bucket right now.


I felt that bitcoins had good utility due to the anonymous nature of it. There are several types of people using bitcoins to evade laws. While I don't really want to directly assist these people I am benefiting from the market effects they create.

If bitcoin are backed up by drugs ... so be it.

I would rather use a currency formed on strict mathematics and backed up by a very real and long-living market than a currency formed by the will of some heavily indebted economy and backed up by ... well, paper.

Sorry, that might be insanely naive....

Quote: EvenBob

A lot of experts say Bitcoin has a limited shelf life
and it will go bust sooner or later, when something
happens to make people lose faith in it. Do you agree?

The losing faith thing will lower the value, perhaps, but not reduce who takes it.

I used to think it would get swept away though. The reason is that bitcoin is the most popular but not best cryptocurrency. There are other competing currencies that would have been better if they had been designed first. I think one of these currencies could come sweep bitcoin away.

I thought that would happen earlier. It hasn't. Now bitcoin is gaining real recognition and adoption among the tech savvy. One something gets entrenched it is much more likely to stay.

In either case I think that decentralized cryptocurrencies are here to stay.

Quote: MangoJ

If bitcoin are backed up by drugs ... so be it.

I would rather use a currency formed on strict mathematics and backed up by a very real and long-living market than a currency formed by the will of some heavily indebted economy and backed up by ... well, paper.

Sorry, that might be insanely naive....

I wouldn't say it's backed by drugs... I don't really know though. That certainly doesn't seem accurate, even if it is being used for the sale of drugs at times.

I thought Bitcoins were interesting but never got into them. The only reason I noticed that conversation was because I noticed Bitcoins being talked about... From what I can tell a few major, or at very least legitimate, online companies accept Bitcoins. It's just an alternative currency, so why not? But I'm sure you agree with that.

For a short while it looked like Bitcoin was going to grow in e-stores, but I don't know how far that went. I really only posted here b/c I two people talking about it recently. The guy I already mentioned (just some random guy) and a classmate who mined them for a good while. I don't really know a whole lot about how Bitcoins work.

There still needs to be an easier way to go from bitcoins to cash.

It would be awesome if I could take bitcoins to the craps table and leave with bitcoins, though.

I would probably gamble more money if I could do that and avoid ATM surcharges.

For one thing I would have a lot more gambling money if all my spending money had been in bitcoins for the last week instead of just a couple hundred bucks.

I just started mining bitcoins using a gpu miner. It took me about five minutes to download and fire up the miner with a newly created account.

I knew about this part, but I didn't know how easy it was to become a miner.

Definitely enjoying this little journey and wasn't expecting to become a miner so quickly!

I seems like I make a penny pretty quick. I'm up to five cents after firing it up a few minutes ago. I may have to start mining on all my computers with advanced hardware for that kind of thing. I have some really fast computers with awesome graphics cards being a gamer type.

So an update, I've been tweaking with settings, and I've made about $0.50 in about two hours on a computer not specifically set up for mining. I don't know if that means I will be able to make over $100/month .. maybe I got lucky somehow or maybe I don't know what I'm doing.

But either way, it's interesting stuff that I can just have my computer generate a bunch of heat to put money in my bitcoin wallet. LOLz.

Thanks for the poster above mentioning mining as I hadn't really even tried to look into how that works. The major reason I went and bought a couple of bitcoins was to learn more about it, and this is pretty interesting stuff.

These Giga-hash computers are the ones that really have the potential to make money! I think you can pull down more than $500/month easily. It's pretty weird considering it seems like people would just be building computer farms specifically to mine bitcoins now that the prices are so high. I mean at some point, it's just like people are subsidizing development of processing power by funding computers doing computations in exchange for money. That part is cool too.

I think the logical extension to bitcoin is a model that requires you to burn up network bandwidth circling the globe instead of CPU power in order to generate money. Adding monetary incentives to build higher bandwidth networks and/or to chew up networking bandwidth for no other purpose than to generate currency is pretty cool.

The problem with the bitcoin model is the need to generate heat in order to make money. If you made a bitcoin computer farm, you'd probably be suspected of growing marijuana in some places that fly over and look for unusual heat signatures typical of grow operations.

Are you in a mining pool?

Quote: dwheatley

Are you in a mining pool?

He has to be. Otherwise his reward would be exactly 25BTC (highly unlikely) or 0BTC (highly likely).

Ahigh, be cautious with investing in mining hardware you don't need right now. The world is about to get turned upside down and graphics card machines will be completely obsolete.

I would pull your high end cards and put them in as few machines as possible. It lowers your power cost and increases profit.

Tips for people considering it:
-Raedon graphics cards only
-Get a x850 or higher Raedon card (59xx 69xx, 78xx+). A 6990 is way better than a 7750. The last three numbers are the most important.
-Only the graphics card matters. Otherwise the cheapest computer possible is desirable.

No I'm using https://mining.bitcoin.cz and cgminer on an Nvidia-based CPU with 60Mh/s.

It's not that fantastic compared to the giga-hash. I may get 1.5 Gh/s setup, I just don't know if I want to invest in mining bitcoins, but I probably will if the cost to run and cool my CPU is not prohibitively large compared to the money I can generate from it.

Quote: Ahigh

Ahigh's stuff

Wow, an intelligent post about something other than craps! Keep up the good work, Ahigh!

Quote: thecesspit

The total amount of bitcoin is limited, and cannot be easily added to. The amount added is not under control of one central reserve, but by the number of people wanting to mine coins.

If Bitcoins extend to USD$500,000 apiece then one satoshi or 0.00000001 * bitcoin will equal 1/2 cent. Since 21 million bitcoins * $500K = $10.5 trillion which is about 5-8 times the value of currency and coin in the USA or in the Euro. Since no one expects bitcoin to be on par with one of the largest currency of the world, there is plenty of divisibility to cover any future growth.

The possibility that bitcoins are a bubble or a fad is inherent in anything that returns that type of interest rate. But I would hesitate to call them a Ponzi scheme. The inherent nature of a Ponzi scheme is that you are holding something that by it's very nature is worth zero unless you get out in time.

There is some superficial relationship between Ponzi schemes and bitcoins, because as was pointed out there is no inherent value in a bitcoin. But stories of qualitative easing make you seriously wonder about the inherent value in central bank currencies. Although we are used to saying a country's currency is backed by the total value of the good and services of a country, the ease with which the government can create more money without a corresponding change in the "goods and services" of said country make the relationship look weak.

My favorite thing about BitCoin is how so many people (including the media) say stuff that is absolutely untrue about BitCoins and report it as if they actually understand!

It's hilarious!

The resources for understanding BitCoin are all out there for anyone to go and see all the way down to the source code level.

The reason why it hasn't been more valuable, IMO, is because the understanding of the entire system of the BitCoin is so limited from a popular perspective.

Everybody wants to dismiss it and move on, but it's getting harder and harder to do that now as the value of the bitcoin rises.

Interesting stuff. It's like a currency being born watching the market cap of the currency rise from imagination in the anonymous creators' mind to small market cap to billions of dollars.

Quote: Ahigh

Interesting stuff. It's like a currency being born .

Too bad money and currency aren't the same thing. That
will be Bitcoin's downfall.

1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible.

2. Currency is NOT money, but merely represents money.

http://www.uhuh.com/unreal/moncur.htm

Quote: EvenBob

Too bad money and currency aren't the same thing. That
will be Bitcoin's downfall.

1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible.

2. Currency is NOT money, but merely represents money.

http://www.uhuh.com/unreal/moncur.htm

Great example of untruths:

You assert that bitcoin will have a downfall and that you know what it will be!

You assert that money and currency are not the same thing. This is actually true!

Did you read the thing that you provided?

Currency REPRESENTS money. Money has been created through the currency of BitCoin.

BitCoin is a currency.

The money has been created by means of the currency of BitCoin.

BitCoin is a "digital currency."

But thanks again for bumping up your post count and making more incorrect assertions from the perspective that you know more about what you're talking about than you actually do. I think there's a phrase for this behavior.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=talking%20out%20of%20your%20ass

Quote: pacomartin

If Bitcoins extend to USD$500,000 apiece then one satoshi or 0.00000001 * bitcoin will equal 1/2 cent. Since 21 million bitcoins * $500K = $10.5 trillion which is about 5-8 times the value of currency and coin in the USA or in the Euro. Since no one expects bitcoin to be on par with one of the largest currency of the world, there is plenty of divisibility to cover any future growth.

The possibility that bitcoins are a bubble or a fad is inherent in anything that returns that type of interest rate. But I would hesitate to call them a Ponzi scheme. The inherent nature of a Ponzi scheme is that you are holding something that by it's very nature is worth zero unless you get out in time.

There is some superficial relationship between Ponzi schemes and bitcoins, because as was pointed out there is no inherent value in a bitcoin. But stories of qualitative easing make you seriously wonder about the inherent value in central bank currencies. Although we are used to saying a country's currency is backed by the total value of the good and services of a country, the ease with which the government can create more money without a corresponding change in the "goods and services" of said country make the relationship look weak.

Well put.

Quote: Ahigh

You assert that money and currency are not the same thing. s

They're not.

"Bitcoin Isn’t Illegal Because It Isn’t Real Money"

http://www.extremetech.com/internet/152349-bitcoin-isnt-illegal-because-it-isnt-real-money

Quote: bigfoot66

Cool. How does the cost of electricity compare to what you make daily/weekly mining?

website that calculates profit based on cost of electricity

Total Miners Revenue $957,045.46 @ $211.55 USD per bitcoin
Electricity Consumption * 1,065.10 megawatt hours
Electricity Cost $159,764.47 @ $150 per megawatt hour

That price of electricity is pretty high for where I live (roughly $105 per megawatt hour) , but it is low for New York City. The electricity argument made some sense when bitcoins were less than $40 apiece. It cost more to make them then they were worth. But all those people who made them anyway are now getting rewarded!=


Current Value of bitcoins is $234.50

Quote: Ahigh

No I'm using https://mining.bitcoin.cz and cgminer on an Nvidia-based CPU with 60Mh/s.

It's not that fantastic compared to the giga-hash. I may get 1.5 Gh/s setup, I just don't know if I want to invest in mining bitcoins, but I probably will if the cost to run and cool my CPU is not prohibitively large compared to the money I can generate from it.

Graphics card setups are going to become obsolete soon. Your 60mh/s setup is only going to make $40/year after power costs at the current difficulty and value. But the difficulty goes up every day. Odds are that in 3 months your card will be losing money when you factor power---and that is only counting the card's power. If you could have your computer off instead of mining you are already losing money. Nvidia totally sucks for mining.

You'll still be able to mine litecoin with a GPU setup I guess, but you need AMD. Get 3x 7970 and you have potential.

Thanks for all of the detailed analysis folks! 3x 7970 .. I'll look into that! Electricity for the computer is only part of the equation in summertime here in Nevada. The A/C to cool the room that the computer is heating up goes on top of that effectively adding another 20% to 40%.

Maybe you need a swamp cooler and an outdoor computer room to make it cost effective so that the computer room can run at 90' instead of 72' or something. Then I could run about ten or more computers and buy some sort of outdoor setup. I'd probably run up a bill so high the Metro PD would be knocking on my door expecting to find me growing a bunch of marijuana.

I think you could probably use some sort of custom mount setup instead of using cases so you just have a really big fan running over a bunch of motherboards all mounted onto a custom wooden wall or something.

Quote: Ahigh

Thanks for all of the detailed analysis folks!

Now that Bitcoin is a phenom, there are so many people
jumping on the get rich quick Gold Rush bandwagon that
its epic fail is inevitible. Just like a Bernie Madoff investment
scheme, don't invest the kids college money in it just yet.

Bitcoins are a pyramid scheme due to how it was set up. Early coins were silly easy to earn, the later it is, the harder they get to mine. Guess who it's good for?

Early ROI was as high as 1000%/year even at cent value back then, now ROI is falling below 100%/year.
Unlike ponzi schemes, however, it's not a scheme prone to crashing, as long as real value is attached to bitcoins. Right now they are popular for certain recreational purchases. It's not so much guys on the corner as web stores.

It can fall down or keep growing, but there's little risk of a true "bubble burst" to nothing.

Quote: P90

It can fall down or keep growing, but there's little risk of a true "bubble burst" to nothing.

In a sense there is, acknowledged by the founders themselves. If a competing digitial/crypto-currency were to gain broader acceptance, bitcoin would fade into obscurity. The value could go to 0 fairly quickly.

I believe this is the single biggest downside risk to the currency.

Hey, lets start our own digit coins. Say we give out to WOV members and for every post they make, they will be rewarded one a day. We can build up excitement and have others buy into this illusion. As long as we are not the last one to be holding this when no one wants it we should be good.

Why hold onto gold or silver. Lets go digital. dwheatley is right when he called it a currency, not money. This only had inherent value and zero intrinsic value.

Let the price of silver go down some more so I can keep stacking. Others can mine bitcoins.

Just signed up for a pool.

My name is "tulip farmer."

Why Bitcoin Is Doomed to Fail http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/04/05/why-bitcoin-is-doomed-to-fail/

It has to fail and it will fail, wait and see.

And now you're just spamming articles it's clear you half-understand.

Quote: 24Bingo

And now you're just spamming articles it's clear you half-understand.

They aren't just 'articles', they're the opinions of experts
in the field of finance. I used to be in the collectibles
business and saw this type of thing all the time. Bitcoin's
just another collectible and as such, has a limited shelf
life. Think Beanie Babies, Cabbage Patch Kids, and Hummel
Figurines. I remember when people were putting their
Beanie Babies in safe deposit boxes for their kids college
fund. Funny stuff..

I would like to issue 100 WOV digital coins to the first 100 members interested in this new currency. Should any one member amass all 100 WOV digital coins, you may use this to get a free WOV shirt. Members may sell fraction of their WOV coins.

I also will be thinking of a number from 1 to 100,000,000,000,000,000 and yes I will be thinking in fraction so a guess of 3.1414521 would be considered. Should you guess this number, you will be awarded a WOV coin.

Should anyone amass 200 WOV coins, you can exchange it for an autographed shirt from the Wizard himself.

And if buzzard agrees, should anyone amass 300 WOV, you can exchange this for one informative insight from buzzard. Ask him any question you want.

And should anyone with bitcoin want to exchange it for WOV coin, the exchange rate today is 109,324 bitcoins for 1 WOV coin. The WOV coins are more rare and harder to mine. Look above and see how difficult it is compared to mining bitcoins.

I am also thinking of selling my share of the Brooklyn bridge but I think I should keep this for my retirement.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

I would like to issue 100 WOV digital coins to the first 100 members interested in this new currency. Should any one member amass all 100 WOV digital coins, you may use this to get a free WOV shirt. Members may sell fraction of their WOV coins.

I also will be thinking of a number from 1 to 100,000,000,000,000,000 and yes I will be thinking in fraction so a guess of 3.1414521 would be considered. Should you guess this number, you will be awarded a WOV coin.

Should anyone amass 200 WOV coins, you can exchange it for an autographed shirt from the Wizard himself.

And if buzzard agrees, should anyone amass 300 WOV, you can exchange this for one informative insight from buzzard. Ask him any question you want.

And should anyone with bitcoin want to exchange it for WOV coin, the exchange rate today is 109,324 bitcoins for 1 WOV coin. The WOV coins are more rare and harder to mine. Look above and see how difficult it is compared to mining bitcoins.

I am also thinking of selling my share of the Brooklyn bridge but I think I should keep this for my retirement.

Thank you so much for your valuable contribution to the forum.

Quote: Ahigh

Thank you so much for your valuable contribution to the forum.

And thanks for yours as well. I think we need a Ahigh rating system to rank people's posts. It'd be a proof of work.

----

Currently bitCoin smells of a classic bubble, but a bubble I'm not sure will vanish when it bursts. There is utility in the product for some (black market, untraceable transactions for one). The stable point has yet to be found... unless we know the number of goods/money transactions that are actually occurring in the back ground, it'll be hard to say what will happen.

Quote: EvenBob

Bitcoin's just another collectible...

As is gold.
As are gemstone diamonds.

Like gold, long-term bitcoins will be in a state of deflation, not inflation. It's poor design per se, but it works great for the early adopters. Competing cryptocurrencies actually help BTC long-term: eventually they will fill much of the growth of the market, moderating BTC's user base, and as such its deflation.

Current prices are a bubble, but it will return to trend after it bursts, simply because of how the system works.

Quote: EvenBob

They aren't just 'articles', they're the opinions of experts
in the field of finance. I used to be in the collectibles
business and saw this type of thing all the time. Bitcoin's
just another collectible and as such, has a limited shelf
life. Think Beanie Babies, Cabbage Patch Kids, and Hummel
Figurines. I remember when people were putting their
Beanie Babies in safe deposit boxes for their kids college
fund. Funny stuff..

I knew a guy who quit his job to "focus" on baseball card trading in the early 90"s......he was one of the last chumps in.....he was at his old employers doorstep six months later with hat in hand.

Quote: P90

As is gold.
As are gemstone diamonds.
how the system works.

The difference being, those are real items with a
real use in the real world. Bitcoin is just an idea.

Quote: EvenBob

The difference being, those are real items with a
real use in the real world. Bitcoin is just an idea.

Here's an idea: you have no idea what BitCoin is.

BitCoins are just as real as a video game on an Xbox hard drive, bro.

Quote: Ahigh

Here's an idea: you have no idea what BitCoin is.
.

Bitcoin is not real money. Its an online currency, its virtual tokens that can be exchanged for goods and services at places that accept it, the same way you would give someone a quid for a cookie...Unlike traditional currency, thats backed up by something, (be it gold, silver, or a central bank), Bitcoins are generated out of thin air. http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/04/what-is-bitcoin/

Virtual

Adjective

"Not physically existing as such but made by software to appear to do so."

Thats the key word here, virtual. Bitcoin only exists
as an idea.

Quote: EvenBob

Bitcoin is not real money. Its an online currency, its virtual tokens that can be exchanged for goods and services at places that accept it, the same way you would give someone a quid for a cookie...Unlike traditional currency, thats backed up by something, (be it gold, silver, or a central bank), Bitcoins are generated out of thin air. http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/04/what-is-bitcoin/

Virtual

Adjective

"Not physically existing as such but made by software to appear to do so."

Thats the key word here, virtual. Bitcoin only exists
as an idea.

Bitcoins are not real money unlike all debased currencies throughout the world.

Quote: Ahigh

Here's an idea: you have no idea what BitCoin is.
.

And yesterday you thought Bitcoin was money. Talk about
not knowing what Bitcoin is...

Quote: EvenBob

And yesterday you thought Bitcoin was money. Talk about
not knowing what Bitcoin is...

No I said money (I used the term "market cap") was being created by BitCoin. Big difference bro. But in fact, I never even USED the word "money."

Here's the post where you claim I said bitcoin was money. Where did I say that exactly just so we are talking about the same thing.

Quote: Ahigh

My favorite thing about BitCoin is how so many people (including the media) say stuff that is absolutely untrue about BitCoins and report it as if they actually understand!

It's hilarious!

The resources for understanding BitCoin are all out there for anyone to go and see all the way down to the source code level.

The reason why it hasn't been more valuable, IMO, is because the understanding of the entire system of the BitCoin is so limited from a popular perspective.

Everybody wants to dismiss it and move on, but it's getting harder and harder to do that now as the value of the bitcoin rises.

Interesting stuff. It's like a currency being born watching the market cap of the currency rise from imagination in the anonymous creators' mind to small market cap to billions of dollars.

Look, you aren't that bright, and I feel bad picking on you like this.

But all I am trying to say to you is stop talking out of your butt so much.

But in case you don't already realize this (from the posts that YOU provided) BitCoin is a currency. And the currency of BitCoin represents very REAL money.

Quote: Ahigh

No I said money was being created by BitCoin. Big difference bro.

Look, you aren't that bright, and I feel bad picking on you like this.

But all I am trying to say to you is stop talking out of your butt so much.

LOL! Whatever, 'bro'. Fact is, yesterday you didn't
know the difference between money and currency.

Quote: EvenBob

LOL! Whatever, 'bro'. Fact is, yesterday you didn't
know the difference between money and currency.

You haven't demonstrated that you do as evidenced by these ridiculously flawed comments that do nothing more than to put your ignorance on display!

You totally fall into the huge category of people commenting on the subject without clue 1 about what's going on with it.

Quote: EvenBob

And yesterday you thought Bitcoin was money. Talk about
not knowing what Bitcoin is...

You don't look so hot when you snarkily point out obscure and inconsequential points like this and suggest that someone is an idiot for not knowing the difference. I feel like I am back at the young republican meetings where some guy made a point of always correcting those who incorrectly stated that the US is a democracy rather than a republic.

Quote: bigfoot66

You don't look so hot when you snarkily point out obscure and inconsequential points like this and suggest that someone is an idiot for not knowing the difference. I feel like I am back at the young republican meetings where some guy made a point of always correcting those who incorrectly stated that the US is a democracy rather than a republic.

Just responding to EvenBob at all is evidence of my total lack of intelligence! I am the "D one" here.

Quote: Ahigh

You haven't demonstrated that you do as evidenced by these ridiculously flawed comments

There are some experts who say Bitcoin isn't even
currency, let alone money. Its just a medium of
exchange, and a bad one at that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/apr/10/bitcoin-not-real-currency-cowrie

LOL, its happening while we type. This article is 45min old.

Bitcoin Bubble Bursting in Real Time on the Internet

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2417649,00.asp

From CNN Money an hour ago:

Bitcoin bubble begins to burst, price plunges 60%

http://buzz.money.cnn.com/2013/04/10/bitcoin-bubble-burst/?section=money_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fmoney_topstories+%28Top+Stories%29

Quote: Pacomartin

Bitcoin conversion

Is it over already? They dropped from $260 to $150 today (over the last few hours).

Did the market fall? Did Interpol and FBI get involved? Was it a scam or just human nature? Will it rise back up?

I posted on the DTsite.