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OnceDear
OnceDear
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January 18th, 2021 at 5:07:11 AM permalink
Quote: vegas

Bitcoin is really just another form of gambling. Hardly anyone uses bitcoin to buy things,


It is, actually quite a handy currency for doing business with online casinos. No need to give some shady casino your credit/debit card or bank info and no need to trust them with paypal.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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January 18th, 2021 at 6:34:30 AM permalink
Ok guys... Let's say I have the equivalent of $100k of Bitcoin in my coinbase account. I want to transfer ....
1. $5k to my bank account.
2. $5k to my car dealership to pay for repairs.
3. $5k to BillyRyan's coinbase account to buy a comic book.
4. $5k in cash to friend who has no crypto account.
5. $5k to the IRS to pay my tax bill.

What charges/fees/transaction costs will each of the examples cost? Can I actually accomplish all 5?
billryan
billryan
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January 18th, 2021 at 7:55:27 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I have been hearing that from the beginning, and yet, here we are. Why don't you think it will end well? When do you think the end will come? 2 years, 5 years, 100 years? Anyone can say, I don't think x stock/company will end well and never be wrong no matter how well something does in the meantime, with a chance to be right.

Back in 98/00 who would have guessed AOL would have went down the tubs so fast? I had a feeling them buying Time Warner was bad news.

Amazon... really? I didn't get it, I thought they were just going to sell books online.



As I said, it is my gut feeling. I have no evidence or expertise to support it. Just my feelings.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
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January 18th, 2021 at 8:01:27 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Hi Bill,
Would you mind identifying the exchange that had low charges? With Bid/Offer spread on the exchange rate, I usually expect it to cost a few percent.



I know nothing about these things. Guy wanted to buy a book using bitcoin and I said no. He said if he had to go through Paypal I would receive X -3%, but with bitcoin I'd get x-less than 1%. About two days after we started the process, the money was in my account and I still had the book so there was zero risk on my side.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
billryan
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January 18th, 2021 at 8:04:50 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

As I said, it is my gut feeling. I have no evidence or expertise to support it. Just my feelings.




A man jumps off the Empire State building.
As he passes the 90th floor, his phone rings.
As he passes the 80th floor, he answers it
How is it going, asks a voice as he passes the 50th floor.
The man looks around, and as he passes the 30th floor
he replies- So far ,so good.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AZDuffman
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January 18th, 2021 at 8:33:16 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Ok guys... Let's say I have the equivalent of $100k of Bitcoin in my coinbase account. I want to transfer ....
1. $5k to my bank account.
2. $5k to my car dealership to pay for repairs.
3. $5k to BillyRyan's coinbase account to buy a comic book.
4. $5k in cash to friend who has no crypto account.
5. $5k to the IRS to pay my tax bill.

What charges/fees/transaction costs will each of the examples cost? Can I actually accomplish all 5?



Your car dealer just needs to give you their public key. Billy the same.

The rest you need to sell on the exchange to turn into cash then do an ACH transfer.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
vegas
vegas
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January 18th, 2021 at 10:01:50 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

It is, actually quite a handy currency for doing business with online casinos. No need to give some shady casino your credit/debit card or bank info and no need to trust them with paypal.



Yes I agree it is ideal for online casinos. Still that is a small number of people who actually spend bitcoin. Most hold to try and see profit later.
50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability you'll get it wrong
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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January 18th, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Your car dealer just needs to give you their public key. Billy the same.

The rest you need to sell on the exchange to turn into cash then do an ACH transfer.



So what is skimmed off in 1-5?
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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January 18th, 2021 at 12:12:53 PM permalink
Can I buy a prepaid bitcoin credit card? I'd guess it stores its value strictly as bitcoin, but there'd be an option to pay a bill by dollars or bitcoin.

I guess I have to learn what a BitPay crypto credit card is and hope Apple & Google don't deplatform it.

You can use your BitPay Mastercard at almost any online or brick and mortar merchant that accepts Mastercard prepaid cards. However, the BitPay Card cannot be used in nations sanctioned by OFAC, the US Office of Foreign Asset Control. - Nov 18, 2020

Does BitPay card report to IRS?
That means you don't have to do any extra for tax reporting for your everyday usage of the BitPay Card. But when you load the BitPay Card with dollars using Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash, you are making a transaction which the IRS considers to be taxable under its digital currency tax guidance. - Apr 5, 2018

Does BitPay card still work?
This program termination means that all BitPay prepaid Visa cards will expire and stop working on December 31, 2020, regardless of the expiration date printed on your card. - Jan 1, 2021

Important Changes to the BitPay Prepaid Visa Card https://support.bitpay.com/hc/en-us/articles/360042021051-Important-Changes-to-the-BitPay-Prepaid-Visa-Card

Sooo, Visa out/Mastercard in.

ATM Withdrawal $2,000 per withdrawal, 3 withdrawals per day
Load Limits $10,000 per day
Spending Limits $10,000 per day
Maximum Balance $25,000 including cash loads

Soooo, can't buy a new car worth more than $10K on this card.

BitPay Exchange Rates https://bitpay.com/exchange-rates/
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Jan 18, 2021
AZDuffman
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January 18th, 2021 at 12:27:14 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

So what is skimmed off in 1-5?



There is always a miner free. After all, we are not communists.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
BTLWI
BTLWI
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Ahigh
January 18th, 2021 at 12:55:16 PM permalink
I went ahead and did my first loan. Here's the reason it's not simply straight forward - there's an opportunity cost for taking out a crypto loan because you can stake your crypto and earn APY at many places.

2.30144948 BTC deposited to Celsius Network as Collateral
$25,000 USD received as loan
12 Interest only payments of $144.79
Total Interest $1735.50

That part is straight forward however I'm losing the opportunity to stake those 2.3 BTC and earn APY on it. Currently Celsius pays 4.74% APY on BTC. So this "cost" of not earning yield should be factored in to my loan cost.


Random thoughts -
A) A loan is not a cash out and is not a taxable event but lets you access the USD power of your crypto
B) I bought $25K more crypto (mostly Cardano ADA) with the loan - gambool
C) I'll be taking another $25K loan soon to buy Secret Network (SCRT) but it's tough to get in the US - gambool gambool
D) NYKNYC is also a non-zero risk cost
IndyJeffrey
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January 19th, 2021 at 4:29:21 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Bitcoin? Digital currency? Is it even used as currency? Best I can tell itís like having a Ferrari that never gets driven, it just trades from one garage to the next for varying amounts of money.



In your example, the Ferrari is currency. So, yes, bitcoin is currency.
PokerGrinder
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January 19th, 2021 at 5:21:06 AM permalink
Ethereum hit itís all time high last night. Bought more btc too even though I am expecting it to pull back a bit in the near future. I believe after a 3-6k pull back itís going to moon.

Could be that members donít talk about it but Iím surprised how few WoVíers are bullish on crypto.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. ó Amarillo Slim Preston
OnceDear
OnceDear
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January 19th, 2021 at 5:29:06 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

I believe after a 3-6k pull back itís going to moon.

Could be that members donít talk about it but Iím surprised how few WoVíers are bullish on crypto.

I agree. With so many BTC pessimistic pundits, I anticipate a bright medium term
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
rawtuff
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January 19th, 2021 at 5:32:29 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

No it's not right. And your answer is flatly wrong.

References disproving your wrong statements:

* Wikipedia on "ponzi scheme."
* Reductio ad absurdum assuming premise that "BitCoin is a Ponzi Scheme."
* Knowledge of basic principles of markets
* Reductio ad absurdum assuming that getting in early guarantees a lower price



* "ponzi scheme is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors; QED

*** Basic principles of markets involve creating value; btc doesn't create anything other than itself; Reductio ad absurdum Myassum
Tits are good, but the most important thing is the soul.
unJon
unJon
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January 19th, 2021 at 5:57:53 AM permalink
Quote: rawtuff

* "ponzi scheme is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors; QED

*** Basic principles of markets involve creating value; btc doesn't create anything other than itself; Reductio ad absurdum Myassum



Itís just ForEx.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
IndyJeffrey
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January 19th, 2021 at 9:42:31 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Could be that members donít talk about it but Iím surprised how few WoVíers are bullish on crypto.



I'm not surprised. Speaking only for this WoV'er, my cautious outlook is based on my lack of understanding as to why/how it's valued. It seems 100% speculative to me.
rxwine
rxwine
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January 19th, 2021 at 10:02:40 AM permalink
I started searching on news related to loss, damage or stolen Bitcoin.

Quote:


The Feds Seized $1 Billion in Stolen Silk Road Bitcoins. ... The IRS says it has finally tracked down the hacker who stole the Silk Road's nearly 70,000 bitcoinsónow worth more than $1 billionóand allowed law enforcement to take control of those funds.



As far as I know the only secure system which hasnít been breached fully in the real world is all the layers of a nuclear launch system.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
billryan
billryan
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January 19th, 2021 at 10:22:56 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Ethereum hit itís all time high last night. Bought more btc too even though I am expecting it to pull back a bit in the near future. I believe after a 3-6k pull back itís going to moon.

Could be that members donít talk about it but Iím surprised how few WoVíers are bullish on crypto.



I suspect it has to do with the ages of the posters. Few of my friends that are close to my age think highly of them whereas many of my thirty-year-old friends think, no expect, to get wealthy with them.
As I see it, a 30 year old who sinks fifty grand into them has twenty or more years to recover if things go south. Most people in my situation are more concerned with keeping the wealth we have spent our lifetime gathering than taking chances on something that is wild speculation. I don't want to be a hack away from losing half my net worth. I understand that limits my upside potential but it is an informed decision. Was I twentyfive, I'm pretty sure I would look at things differently. If I was fifty and had nothing saved for retirement, I might be inclined to speculate.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ChumpChange
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January 19th, 2021 at 10:28:33 AM permalink
It's not like a stock that keeps repeating the same 20 point swing predictably.
AxelWolf
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January 19th, 2021 at 10:37:09 AM permalink
And yet BTLWI's didn't raise any eyebrows?

I definitely don't understand how that stuff works, but it seems very ponzi schemeish to me.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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January 19th, 2021 at 11:13:54 AM permalink
The words "margin call" come to mind when his bitcoin collateral drops below his loan amount. I don't understand this loan he got.
AZDuffman
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January 19th, 2021 at 12:57:26 PM permalink
We seem to be in a stability of $36-37 lately. Wonder how long it will last. The big boys might be spreading out their buys better.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
BTLWI
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ChumpChange
January 19th, 2021 at 1:24:51 PM permalink
I had 4-5 BTC deposited earning yield - 4.7% APY in BTC - think traditional bank savings account but paid in kind.

I applied for a no-credit check - BTC collateral only loan for $25,000 USD.
More collateral gets you a lower interest payment rate on your loan.

$100k worth of BTC collateral gets me an APY of 1%
$75K worth of BTC gets me an APY of 6.95% (I choose this)
$50K worth of BTC gets me an APY of 8.95%

They took 2.30144948 BTC that I had deposited (and earning interest) as collateral. I'm left with 2.5 BTC earning interest, 2.3 BTC in collateral and $25,000 USD.

On the 11th of each month I owe $144.79 in interest. On 11-Jan-2022 I will owe the $25,000 loaned amount.
Total owed - $26,737.50
My $25K loan needs to be worth $26,737.50 or more by Jan 2022 or I made a dumb decision.

I was earning 4.7% APY (in BTC) on 2.30144948 BTC that is now moved to collateral and earning 0%. That's the "hard" part of figuring out the cost of the loan. It's costing me about .108 BTC that I could have earning in interest if I kept it in my yield account.

BTC Margin call at BTC price of $16,711
Liquidation at BTC price of $13,578
ChumpChange
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January 20th, 2021 at 1:03:23 AM permalink
So if you don't pay the balloon payment at the end, they take your bitcoin? What if bitcoin is worth much more then, will they refund whatever is above the $25K in bitcoin? If bitcoin is worth a lot less, maybe the 2.3 btc can cover the $25K and if not, you'll owe more bitcoin. Seems like an advance of some sort.
MichaelBluejay
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January 20th, 2021 at 2:55:40 AM permalink
U.S. gamblers should know that if they get paid for a big win more than once, it could be hard for them to legally sell their Bitcoin to turn it into dollars.

The easy way to sell Bitcoin is at an exchange like Bitstamp or Coinbase. The first time you sell a lot of Bitcoin they'll ask you where you got the Bitcoin, because they have to follow KYC (Know-Your-Customer) laws. If you tell them you got paid from an online casino, they'll tell you to withdraw your balance so they can close your account, because they don't want to touch online gambling money for legal reasons. If you lie about where you got the Bitcoin, then you've committed felony bank fraud.

You could try to sell to individuals on sites like LocalBitcoins, where the buyer sends you a wire or deposits cash into your bank account. First, those sites are rife with fraudsters. There is absolutely no safe payment method, all payment methods can be reversed, even wires, despite various sites saying that reversals aren't possible for wires. (Ask me how I know.) Even if you get your money from legitimate buyers, when your bank sees a lot of money going into your account, they may ask about the source of the funds, at which point you have the same problem as above: your account gets closed or you commit felony bank fraud.

I'm sitting on quite a bit of BTC that I can't easily sell. Coinbase, Bitstamp, Circle, and Chase closed my accounts, and Wells Fargo told me in no uncertain terms not to deposit proceeds from Bitcoin sales into my account. When I have more time, I plan to open accounts at other banks/exchanges, but I can expect to be able to do only one or a few sales at each institution before my account get closed.

Being on the up-and-up doesn't help. I report every penny I win from gambling, I sell my Bitcoin through my business which has been a legally-registered corporation since 2004, and I also hold a registration from the fed's Financial Crimes and Enforcement Network as a Money Services Business so there's no question that I can legally sell my Bitcoin. That and 50¢ will get you a cup of coffee.

I know a guy who has a BTM business (Bitcoin ATMs), and he's completely unbanked, because no bank will take his business.

I'm probably going to be making a big-ticket purchase of an item soon for $100,000, and I'm pushing the sellers to take the funds in Bitcoin, and offering a premium if they will, so I can unload some of my stash.

Bitcoin has no value if you can't sell it.

For those of you thinking that you'll offer to buy some of my Bitcoin, remember, I have no bank account into which to deposit the cash without risking my account getting closed as a result.

Now, if you just wanted to trade Bitcoin as speculation (depositing cash into Bitstamp, buying your BTC there, and selling it there), then you could do that all day, no problem, because they'd know where you got the Bitcoin. But Bitcoin from gambling sources is another matter.
Last edited by: MichaelBluejay on Jan 20, 2021
Presidential Election polls and odds: https://2605.me/p
OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 3:45:43 AM permalink
Quote: MichaelBluejay

Gamblers should know that if they get paid for a big win more than once, it could be hard for them to legally sell their Bitcoin to turn it into dollars.

The easy way to sell Bitcoin is at an exchange like Bitstamp or Coinbase. The first time you sell a lot of Bitcoin they'll ask you where you got the Bitcoin, because they have to follow KYC (Know-Your-Customer) laws. If you tell them you got paid from an online casino, they'll tell you to withdraw your balance so they can close your account, because they don't want to touch online gambling money for legal reasons. If you lie about where you got the Bitcoin, then you've committed felony bank fraud.

Thanks Michael,
That's my understanding of the US situation, now here's my take on the UK case.
There isn't the same felony bank fraud risk and so far Coinbase has not shown any concern about where my BTC came from, BUT. They do report anyone who transacts > £2000 in total transaction value to our tax authorities (and yours). They are also red hot on KYC. They've never shown concern about casino winnings, because that's not restricted here under any law.
My lasting concern is that I accumulate a high value of BTC and at some point all institutions start behaving as yours did. My beneficiaries could find themselves locked out of a lot of BTC wealth if asked where it came from.
It's a tough one, because I do WANT to go long on BTC.
Actually similar issues can and do happen with FIAT currency. Some UK banks have been known to lock up and hold onto deposits of as little as £10k until it's explained to them where it came from. In the UK, one cannot buy a new car with cash or bank funds without KYC at the dealership. Generally the answer 'Savings from 40 years of salary' is enough to satisfy them, but it's getting tighter.
KYC is a b***h!
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MichaelBluejay
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January 20th, 2021 at 4:07:20 AM permalink
Good point, OnceDear, I edited my post to say that "U.S." gamblers could have a hard time cashing out.

Going long on BTC shouldn't be a problem for you so long as you buy your BTC at an exchange like Bitstamp or Coinbase and hold it there. They'll know where you got the BTC, and should have no problem with your selling it there.
Presidential Election polls and odds: https://2605.me/p
AxelWolf
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January 20th, 2021 at 5:30:41 AM permalink
Quote: MichaelBluejay

I report every penny I win from gambling, I sell my Bitcoin through my business which has been a legally-registered corporation since 2004, and I also hold a registration from the fed's Financial Crimes and Enforcement Network as a Money Services Business so there's no question that I can legally sell my Bitcoin. That and 50¢ will get you a cup of coffee.

So, much of this bitcoin comes from you winning at online casinos or is it from your affiliate earnings? I didn't take you as an online gambler.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Jan 20, 2021
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SOOPOO
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January 20th, 2021 at 6:05:33 AM permalink
Do any of the legal for US residents online gambling sites like DraftKings allow Bitcoin deposits or withdrawals? As online gambling gets Ďmoreí legal, do you think the banking problems you are having will go away?
MDawg
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January 20th, 2021 at 7:18:39 AM permalink
That's part of the problem I ran into end of 2017. All of my BTC at that time was in an overseas hosted blockchain, secure and never any problems, but that site didn't allow anyone from the U.S. to sell, at that time, and it required KYC verification before even beginning to sell, which I had avoided up until that point. I looked into transferring to coinbase and gemini, but at that time even in addition to the KYC, there were limits, as I recall, $50,000 at Coinbase and $100,000 at Gemini, in how much BTC you could sell at a time, and those amounts would have taken forever to sell all I have.

So, I just kept hodling. I now have some more BTC accumulated over the past few years, but the vast lion's shares of my coins date from long ago. Last year I went ahead with KYC verification at the overseas blockchain. For a little while now I have had almost all of the BTC and also a gang of stablecoins that some clients paid me in over time, in interest bearing accounts. The stablecoins pay low double digits and the bitcoin just below mid single digits, but again, whatever I have received I've just left in there, never withdrawn or sold anything. So at least it's all been earning. Plus I still receive crypto regularly from clients - I hodl all of it.

Now, if I wanted to buy another house or something like that and the buyer would accept bitcoin, I would go for that. I understand that I could buy a Tesla with BTC but I don't want one, as we already have too many cars. Short of something like a nice real estate transaction coming up, I still haven't looked into how easy it would be to sell large quantities of BTC. At least one issue that I noticed at the end of 2017, is no longer an issue - liquidity - back then even trying to sell ten BTC let alone the quantities I need to unload might have crashed the price considerably, and even the 19000 price points were hit only for a matter of hours. Today, high prices are much more stable in terms of lasting for days not just minutes, and the demand is unprecedented. But I still don't know how much may be sold in one go, haven't looked into that.

I actually plan on transferring mid six figure sums via ACH to the blockchain to buy stablecoins, just to get the interest. The interest being paid on stablecoins pretty much matches the average increase rate of the S&P 500 over time, which is not bad for what I view as a safe, stable investment. I mean there are ponzi scams that don't even purport to pay much more interest than is being paid on stablecoins. That will be the first time I have ever spent cash on any of this - all of my BTC and stablecoins come from clients paying me consistently over the past decade. *****I've never heard of any bank shutting anyone down for transferring funds from his account to a blockchain via ACH, and the purpose of this post is to ask Bluejay if he has ever had issues with sending bank funds OUT to a wallet?
Last edited by: MDawg on Jan 20, 2021
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
AxelWolf
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January 20th, 2021 at 7:34:06 AM permalink
edit..
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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January 20th, 2021 at 7:34:08 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

That's part of the problem I ran into end of 2017. All of my BTC at that time was in an overseas hosted blockchain, secure and never any problems, but that site didn't allow anyone from the U.S. to sell, at that time, and it required KYC verification before even beginning to sell, which I had avoided up until that point. I looked into transferring to coinbase and gemini, but at that time even in addition to the KYC, there were limits, as I recall, $50,000 at Coinbase and $100,000 at Gemini, in how much BTC you could sell at a time, and those amounts would have taken forever to sell all I have.

So, I just kept hodling. I now have some more BTC accumulated over the past few years, but the vast lion's shares of my coins date from long ago. Last year I went ahead with KYC verification at the overseas blockchain. For a little while now I have had almost all of the BTC and also a gang of stablecoins that some clients paid me in over time, in interest bearing accounts. The stablecoins pay low double digits and the bitcoin just below mid single digits, but again, whatever I have received I've just left in there, never withdrawn or sold anything. So at least it's all been earning. Plus I still receive crypto regularly from clients - I hodl all of it.

Now, if I wanted to buy another house or something like that and the buyer would accept bitcoin, I would go for that. I could buy a Tesla with BTC but I don't want one, as we already have too many cars. Short of something like a nice real estate transaction coming up, I still haven't looked into how easy it would be to sell large quantities of BTC. At least one issue that I noticed at the end of 2017, is no longer an issue - liquidity - back then even trying to sell ten BTC let alone the quantities I need to unload might have crashed the price considerably, and even the 19000 price points were hit only for a matter of hours. Today, high prices are much more stable in terms of lasting for days not just minutes, and the demand is unprecedented. But I still don't know how much may be sold in one go, haven't looked into that.

I actually plan on transferring mid six figure sums via ACH to the blockchain to buy stablecoins, just to get the interest. The interest being paid on stablecoins pretty much matches the average increase rate of the S&P 500 over time, which is not bad for what I view as a safe, stable investment. That will be the first time I have ever spent cash on any of this - all of my BTC and stablecoins come from clients paying me consistently over the past decade. *****I've never heard of any bank shutting anyone down for transferring funds from your account to a blockchain via ACH, and the purpose of this post is to ask Bluejay if he has ever had issues with sending bank funds OUT to a wallet?

How come you didn't understand the fact that if you send someone x amount of bitcoin and they send you back that same amount that it would be the same as if you yourself were holding it? That was ONE of your many excuses not to use BTC as a guarantee of funds/payment. So very odd that you are a Bitcoin mutimillionaire and yet it seemed to be difficult for you to come up with 5k.

Welcome back.

p.s. Did I ever tell you I meet Jon Lovitz at the Palms?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MDawg
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January 20th, 2021 at 7:40:03 AM permalink
Not here to talk about that - that's yesterday's news. Maybe in another thread, another day. 🤓

Celebrities: yes there are many in Vegas. I've met many, gambled side by side with many. But uh...what does that have to do with bitcoin?  😇


What concerned me is Bluejay's mention of banks shutting down his accounts for dealing with bitcoin.

*****I've never heard of any bank shutting anyone down for transferring funds from his account to a blockchain via ACH, and the purpose of this post is to ask Bluejay if he has ever had issues with sending bank funds OUT to a wallet? Again, in my case we would be talking about mid six figure sums to buy stablecoins. And I'd be transferring to a reputable overseas blockchain with a U.S. bank account it has set up for receipt of funds.

Looking here
https://www.wsj.com/articles/jpmorgan-extends-banking-services-to-bitcoin-exchanges-11589281201
JP Morgan Chase has a relationship with coinbase and gemini, so hoping that Chase would not shut anyone down for using his bank accounts to buy crypto? But your post Bluejay mentions Chase as a bank that shut you down, which concerns me.
Last edited by: MDawg on Jan 20, 2021
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AxelWolf
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January 20th, 2021 at 7:52:46 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Not here to talk about that - that's yesterday's news. Maybe in another thread, another day. 🤓

Celebrities: yes there are many in Vegas. I've met many, gambled side by side with many. But uh...what does that have to do with bitcoin?  😇


What concerned me is Bluejay's mention of banks shutting down his accounts for dealing with bitcoin.

*****I've never heard of any bank shutting anyone down for transferring funds from his account to a blockchain via ACH, and the purpose of this post is to ask Bluejay if he has ever had issues with sending bank funds OUT to a wallet? Again, in my case we would be talking about mid six figure sums to buy stablecoins. And I'd be transferring to a reputable overseas blockchain with a U.S. bank account.

For some odd reason after reading your post, Jon Lovitz immediately popped into my mind, so I thought I would share.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MichaelBluejay
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January 20th, 2021 at 8:16:18 AM permalink
MDawg, banks don't want USD deposits into your account that's from your sale of Bitcoin. They don't care about your sending money *out* of your account (unless you have lots of big deposits that you immediately withdraw, which appears sketchy to them).

All of the big banks have explicit prohibitions against crypto. After Chase closed my business account and I opened a business account at Wells Fargo, WF told me in no uncertain terms not to use my account for crypto. Chase refused to tell me why they closed my account, it could have been because I received a $36k wire to purchase BTC and then the buyer claimed fraud, and Chase then seized the $36k from my account and returned it to the other bank, even though wires are supposedly non-reversible. According to the buyer's bank (Ally), the buyer was socially-engineered by a third party, so it seems like after the buyer wired the money, my BTC went to a scammer, but I don't have more details because Ally's not talking. Ally said the FBI is involved but I haven't had a chance to call them and doubt they'll be helpful anyway. I talked to attorneys and have a decent case for suing three different targets: Chase, Ally, and the buyer, but legal fees for one case would be $40k which exceeds the amount I'm trying to recover. I'm contemplating trying to go at it pro se but I stand almost no chance against Chase's corporate lawyers, so it's possible my time is better spent on other things rather than chasing a probable dead-end.

Incidentally, when Chase received the fraud report from Ally, Chase froze the $100k in my account for weeks and I had no access to my money. Fortunately I have multiple bank accounts. I recommend everyone split their money across at least two different banks, even if they're not messing with crypto, because there's no telling when banks will decide to be jerks and freeze your money.

In another thread there was discussion of the guys who exploited a bug in some video poker machines to trigger payouts they didn't legitimately win, and got arrested and charged with hacking and wire fraud by the feds. The charges were eventually dropped but not after the duo spent some time in jail and an untold amount on legal fees. Just because you didn't commit a crime doesn't mean you can't get arrested, and just because you didn't do anything wrong with your money doesn't mean the bank can't lock you out of your account.
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OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 9:48:31 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

All of my BTC at that time was in an overseas hosted blockchain

...
Quote:

the overseas blockchain.



What does that even mean?
You either have the private keys yourself and you own BTC, or you don't and you don't.

Quote:

back then even trying to sell ten BTC let alone the quantities I need to unload might have crashed the price considerably,


I'm sorry, I PMSL at that comment.
Quote:

I actually plan on transferring mid six figure sums via ACH to the blockchain

What does that mean? You plan to send fiat to an exchange to BUY coins for them to hold for you?
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 9:52:10 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

For some odd reason after reading your post, Jon Lovitz immediately popped into my mind, so I thought I would share.


Hi Axel. I don't recognise that name? Is he a comedian (that you admire)?
[Comment redacted, because it would end in my suspension]
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 9:58:27 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

... transferring funds from his account to a blockchain via ACH,


What does that mean? Be as technical as you wish.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MDawg
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January 20th, 2021 at 10:01:50 AM permalink
OD: I keep my coins in a HOSTED wallet. It just happens to be overseas.

Bluejay: That is disconcerting, to say the least. Probably what I will do then is ACH the funds from a personal account. I can't afford to have them close my business accounts as I rely on them too much. For the moment, all I will be doing is sending funds out, in this case to buy stablecoins, but, the idea, at least for the interest accrued on these stablecoins, is to withdraw it eventually, for use as income, so some money will come back eventually, and I hope the banks don't bother me when that happens.

One thing they were saying at least at my blockchain is that the incoming wire to them must match the account holder's name. If I send a wire from a business account, or an ACH for that matter, it wouldn't match the blockchain wallet holder's name as that is personal, so I assume that means that your hosted wallet doesn't care where the funds are coming from?
For example - stock accounts, they will not accept cashier's checks, because they don't know who bought them. However, I do know that SOME stock accounts will accept an ACH from any account that is linked, no matter in whose name that account is, and others are much more careful and won't allow the bank account to be linked unless the account holder's name matches the stock account holder name exactly.

*** Just a thought: is it possible that what flagged all this was initially that the incoming ACH or wires to your account were from (I assume hosted) wallets, and then they noticed as well that the name on the incoming wire or ACH was a personal name (yours I assume) versus your business name? Maybe they didn't like the crypto related funds, but used the excuse of a mismatch in account holder title to shut you down.

Now, I get ACHs all the time incoming to my business accounts that are in my name, other people's names, various business names, etc. no one has ever cared, but technically even ACHs are supposed to match the recipient account holder's name, whether business or personal. I think that's a rule that is little enforced though, for the most part - it's all numbers to banks.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 10:15:55 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

OD: I keep my coins in a HOSTED wallet. It just happens to be overseas..

Is it not true to say that BTC do NOT reside in a wallet: Private keys reside in the wallet: Coins reside on the blockchain. So. You neither own nor control any BTC. Some exchange has agreed to send you some BTC or some fiat at some future time.
I find it unthinkable that any significant ,savvy investor would entrust his BTC to any exchange. Again, the mere concept has me PMSL in disbelief.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 10:21:08 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

OD: I keep my coins in a HOSTED wallet. It just happens to be overseas.

One thing they were saying at least at my blockchain is that the incoming wire to them must match the account holder's name. If I send a wire from a business account, or an ACH for that matter, it wouldn't match the blockchain wallet holder's name as that is personal, so I assume that means that your hosted wallet doesn't care where the funds are coming from?


Hang on. You say you have had clients pay you in BTC? I'd love to hear how you reconcile that with 'your blockchain' reconciling that with the client's identity, or yours.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MDawg
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January 20th, 2021 at 10:37:45 AM permalink
Maybe you're misunderstanding me, or maybe you don't know anything about any of this? It's one or the other.

Incoming / outgoing crypto just goes to the wallet, that's it. It's not attached to any identity. No wallet, hosted or not, cares where it comes from, it just comes.

When I refer to that my blockchain (by "my" I just mean the hosted wallet I keep my crypto in), or some stock accounts, will not accept a wire or ACH where the identity attached to the transfer doesn't match the account holder's name, I am referring to federal funds - in my case USD.

When one receives crypto, it's just numbers, no name. When one receives ACH or wire, the name of the sender is attached to the ACH/wire info.

As far as do I trust where I keep my crypto, yes, I do. Is it really my crypto? Well, is the money in your bank account really sitting in that account or is it just a number that you hope you'll be able to withdraw when the time comes. (And even things like...FDIC insurance have limits, and most of my accounts are well beyond those, which means that if the bank goes under, I lose a lot. Is the chance of the bank's going under any greater than that my blockchain will be hacked? Maybe. Maybe not. What if someone hacks into one of my stock trading/investing accounts? am I covered?)
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OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Maybe you're misunderstanding me, or maybe you don't know anything about any of this? It's one or the other.

There is a third option
Quote:

Incoming / outgoing crypto just goes to the wallet, that's it. )



Crypto goes to an address on the blockchain. Not to the wallet.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MDawg
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January 20th, 2021 at 10:55:17 AM permalink
Whatever, you and I are talking about two different things. You're going on about how the hosted wallet might care about who sent the crypto. I'm saying they can't even know as far as a "name" being associated with the transaction, let alone care.

Anyway, probably what I will do is send about five grand and buy stablecoins, then ship it to the interest bearing account within my blockchain, then send some more USD and repeat the process, then the rest. That should be no problem, right Bluejay? But I gotta get the interest accrued back at some point in dollars after I sell it off. If the banks are really that touchy about it, maybe I could send the stablecoins to my coinbase wallet, which I don't use much but do have, then from there to a personal Chase account. As mentioned Chase has an interest in coinbase, I am hoping they wouldn't stop transactions emanating from their own associate.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 11:12:25 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Whatever, you and I are talking about two different things.


Yes. I'm talking about reality. I don't quite know what you are talking about, so let's leave it at that.
Quote:

You're going on about how the hosted wallet might care about who sent the crypto.

That's your interpretation. not mine.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MDawg
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January 20th, 2021 at 11:22:07 AM permalink
The reality, is that two people with actual experience in this were discussing an intended actual transaction, when you decided to step in. If you have some input on the matter at hand that would be appreciated. Otherwise, have a nice day (or in your case...night!).
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
OnceDear
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January 20th, 2021 at 12:05:42 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

The reality, is that two people with actual experience in this were discussing an intended actual transaction, when you decided to step in. If you have some input on the matter at hand that would be appreciated. Otherwise, have a nice day (or in your case...night!).

Enjoy your thread Mdawg. I'll desist in asking you to explain any of your assertions herein, even where they make no sense to my limited understanding.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
AxelWolf
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January 20th, 2021 at 1:28:53 PM permalink
ROFLMAO.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SOOPOO
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January 20th, 2021 at 1:34:44 PM permalink
Welcome back, MD. As someone with not BTC, and very little real understanding about it....(me).... if you have Ďcashí of X dollars.... how much in $US, how much in BTC, any in other currency(euros) or other crypto (etherium)?

Is there any reason for those percentages?

(Not including stocks, bonds, real estate, art, etc...)
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