May 17 show with Roger Snow

Quote: MrCasinoGames

"Novel" sounds OK.

"Novelty game" sounds even better, 3 syllables.

Novel too similar to Novelty, which I don't like

thanks to all for clearing this up for me

PS: Favorite skit in a WC Fields movie, from memory:

WCF: Here's my card [gives a business card to Mae West that says his business is "novelties and notions"]

MW: [sexily] So, what kind of notions do you get?

No, to you all:
1. "Carnival game" - as poor a moniker as you feel it is - is widely used as slang, lingo, or argot in the industry, and everyone knows that it means a new, or a start-up, and proprietary table game. Roger uses it routinely, with occasional apology to the uninitiated. WTF. Doesn't matter how you feel. It matters that we currently use it as language to simply describe "new and perhaps fledgling non-standard table games with fewer installs than the major standard mainstay games which have more installs." Now THAT's a mouthful! - but "Carny" is not." So we use the industry buzz word.
2. Industry Language usage is simply defined by industry language usage itself. Doesn't matter how you feel. It matters it was a made buzzword that we use.
3. it's actually a spot-on industry buzzword in use.

Well, the show's aired by now...

Anyway, for future reference, assuming it wasn't covered, how is Caesars' million-dollar bonus bet promo affecting 3CP? And what is Shufflemaster's involvement in that bet?

I saw many more 3CP tables at all Caesars' properties than there used to be. Usually four, with at last two of them open. Many were packed, most had some action at all times I saw. I didn't look into each table to see what the players were betting, but from prior experience I judge most players will make all the side bets every hand.

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Quote: Wizard

Of those three I like "contemporary" the best.

That was my preferred choice too.

I agree with Dan that 'Carnival' is an established name that describes a new game so it would be difficult to update or modify that word. It's just that Carnivals, (in the UK anyway), that have games such as knocking down tin cans or skittles, or rolling a penny down a slope, are renown for being heavily biased towards the vendor and, in some circumstances, the game is impossible to beat due to the way it is set up - almost on the verge of cheating the player by giving a (false) impression that it can be beaten. It's these undertones that are unfairly carried over (albeit subliminaly) towards a new game that may actually have a lower edge than an existing non-carnival game.

How about non-traditional ??

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I dont care how long a game has been around. A carnival game is and always will be a carnival game. Games like TCP and PGP are NOT in every casino.
Usually these types of games are all clumped together in the same pit therefore we call it a "carny pit."

Once again though, peoples opinions will be different.

Baccarat is in few casinos - a minority. Three Card is in MORE. So is Pai Gow.

Then you don't also care that Blackjack itself - and Craps itself - were Carnival games themselves 80 to 100 years ago under FARO and HAZARD, - the card-based and dice-based games that they fought to replace - and did indeed - which were THE primary gambling games then at ONE time. Same thing today, as well as ten years ago.

so...for that that matter, Blackjack and Craps were carnival games, - not caring how long ago - or how popular they are now, but were ALSO carnival games that made it to the "big leagues."

For the record:
1. Three Card poker is a mainstay - and primary - casino game. Not a carny game. Primary, fundamental, and obligatory.
2. Pai Gow Poker is a mainstay - and primary - casino and card room game. Not a carny game. Primary, fundamental, and obligatory.

In the primary casino pit. In card rooms. In what gamblers play. Not you - them!

This is not opinion, neither yours or mine.
This is Gaming Industry fact, where you are not a player aside from comments on this board.
if you were, - you'd know!

This is fact: Dollar volume, table drop, number of tables installed, action on tables, you name it, Three Card poker and Pai Gow Poker are so huge and primary, they are in the top six mainstay table games list.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I don't care how long a game has been around.

Apparently, you don't, more pointedly so, it matters squat what you think, aside from some Internet forum. Go into a casino. Zero of your games. Zero of you working there for a major casino operator. Zero of you getting any game out into real casinos. Zero of you knowing what games are REALLY primary. Wuz told here.

Like I said, Pai Gow Poker and Three card poker are dominant in real casinos with real gamblers, to the point that is your opinion matters not at all if it is way off the mark. It is.
Especially in terms of the much larger and more impotant gaming industry, in which you are apprently not a player in, otherwise you'd know the deal on table game penetration - in its most basic configuration of its six primary games. Three-Card and Pai Gow poker are absolutely there....

Three card poker made it as a primary table game long ago. Easy to play, easy to deal, easy to operate, fun to play. 1,500 installs. Every real casino HAS it.
Pai Gow Poker made it. Even more installs: 2,000 in the United states alone. Every real casino AND card room has it.

This shit is now traditional - if not absoluetly "Zeitgeist" - as THE spirit of the gambling times we now live in, inside casinos.

Well, though my opinion apparently isn't worth horse semen since I'm not in the GAMING INDUSTRY, I'm going to give it anyway:

Pai Gow Poker=Not a carnival game. Why? Four elements: low house edge (advantage while banking), slowness of play, substantial strategy element (this is debatable), and generally low table holds (around 15-20%).
Three Card Poker=Carny game. No strategy (besides the Q-6-4 pivot point, which nobody follows anyway since all they care about is Pair Plus). Fast play. Proprietary license. High house edge and table holds in the 25-30% range.

Quote: Wizard

I agree that there needs to be a better term. "Proprietary" is too much of a mouthful, and overly formal. What term do you suggest?

I've called them 'casino ripoff' games for years. I would
watch a new game being played, or play it myself, and
eventually I'd say 'what a rip off' to my wife or somebody
else. I think its catchy..

FWIW, when I hear the term 'carnival game' i definately think it implies that the game is someone's intellectual property and not in the public domain.

Quote: Paigowdan

Standard/Mandatory Casino Games that you can certainly expect to find on the casino floor:
1. Blackjack
2. Craps
3. Roulette
4. Pai Gow Poker (left "Carny" status about 2000)
5. Baccarat
6. Three Card Poker (Left Carny status about 2004)

This is the breakdown as considered by the Gaming industry, "The Standard Table Games" list. If not on the Standard/mandatory games list, it is a Carny game."

Dan, you have this in quotes: "The Standard Table Games" list.
If not on the Standard/mandatory games list, it is a Carny game."

Where is this quoted from? I Googled it and nothing came up.
Other sources say anything that was invented and leased or
sold to the casino industry is considered a carnival game. Pai
Gow Poker was invented by Sam Torosian and Fred Wolf in
the 1980's. Its still considered a carnival game, as is Three
Card Poker.

Elliot Jacobson says anything outside of the 4 traditional table
games of craps, roulette, BJ, and baccarat, are carnival games.
He says EZ Pai Gow is a carnival game with a good name,
because it piggy backs on a well known carnival game.

The Big 6 Wheel, or Wheel of Fortune, is in many casinos.
It seems to be everywhere. It origins are ancient, it has
no inventor just like craps or roulette doesn't. Yet its still
considered a carnival game because its not one of the main
4 casino backbone games.

Quote: Paigowdan

Baccarat is in few casinos - a minority. .

Mini Bac is in every casino I go to, even the small
Indian joints. And now I'm seeing EZ Bac. How
do you figure its in 'few casinos'?

Quote: EvenBob

I've called them 'casino ripoff' games for years. I would
watch a new game being played, or play it myself, and
eventually I'd say 'what a rip off' to my wife or somebody
else. I think its catchy..

This is an unfortunate disadvantage that some 'carnival' games face - the players' attitude that the game is not as fair as the regular games found in a casino.

Quite often this is not the case. I find it amusing (and disappointing) when someone walks away from 'Blackjack Switch' considering it a 'rip-off' and then heads over to a 6/5 Blackjack table. All of my Blackjack variants have a much lower house edge than 6/5 Blackjack and some are actually lower than the 3/2 Blackjack in the same casino.

Wiz, if I was hearing correctly, on this show you implied that even with a concealed weapons permit, it's illegal to carry a gun openly. If that is in fact what you meant, I think you got it wrong. In Nevada (as in about 30 other states as best I can tell), you need no license or registration or anything to openly carry a gun. It's really the most basic exercise of our second amendment rights. The permit is required to conceal a weapon...if you intend not to hide the fact that you're carrying a gun, you don't need a permit.

Now whether or not it's a good idea to walk around with a gun on your belt is another story. You'll likely be stopped by the police and treated poorly even though you've broken no laws.

Here's one article I found while researching this topic.

The article says the guy has been into casinos and not been bothered. I find that hard to believe.

As he told the bartender, a private business can make its own rules about that.

I'm sorry, but I consider Three Card Poker to be the "Ultimate Carnival Game" and I don't know if I ever see myself thinking otherwise.

I do consider the age of the game when I think of "Carnival game". That's why I would put Tiles on the list as not a carnival game as well.

I don't know what to do with Pai Gow Poker, I see the arguments both ways.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Wiz, if I was hearing correctly, on this show you implied that even with a concealed weapons permit, it's illegal to carry a gun openly. If that is in fact what you meant, I think you got it wrong.

That is what I was saying, and must admit that I could have been wrong. I'm going to try to verify what you wrote, because I want to issue a correction the next show if I was. Not that it is a good excuse, but Bob caught me off guard with the question.

For now, I will write to my instructor for the CCW permit about this question. I will say in the 11 years I've lived in Nevada the number of times I've seen ordinary people walking around with an exposed firearm in a public place is zero. I'm also reminded of a thread several months ago about a guy who got into it with the LVPD over just having an empty holster in a casino, but police are often ignorant of the law.

Quote: Wizard

That is what I was saying, and must admit that I could have been wrong. I'm going to try to verify what you wrote, because I want to issue a correction the next show if I was.

Apropos to all this, I noticed a sign on the Fremont to the effect that knives, guns and other weapons are not allowed in the casino. This was at both entrances, but in small signs along other signs that are usually ignored by everyone.

Quote: Wizard

That is what I was saying, and must admit that I could have been wrong. I'm going to try to verify what you wrote, because I want to issue a correction the next show if I was. Not that it is a good excuse, but Bob caught me off guard with the question.

For now, I will write to my instructor for the CCW permit about this question. I will say in the 11 years I've lived in Nevada the number of times I've seen ordinary people walking around with an exposed firearm in a public place is zero. I'm also reminded of a thread several months ago about a guy who got into it with the LVPD over just having an empty holster in a casino, but police are often ignorant of the law.

That was my post. (But not me carrying the holster). The thread was here. It is indeed legal to open carry in Nevada, and you don't need a permit. You don't see it that often, but it is legal. (It is in a lot of other states, also).

If you want to know more about open carry I can refer you to the expert, a.k.a. holster guy. He has a book with gun laws for all 50 states.

Quote: Wizard

I'm also reminded of a thread several months ago about a guy who got into it with the LVPD over just having an empty holster in a casino, but police are often ignorant of the law.

If I recall correctly, the police were concerned about
where the gun was, and not so much the holster. The
holster impled the guy had left home with a gun, where was it?

I'd like to tack on that I agree with you, Michael, and disagree with Bob on the kiosk promotion discussion. If a kiosk promo wants to display the prizes you didn't win, then there should have been a fair chance at actually winning the prizes displayed.

Contrast with Stations current kiosk swipe promotion (which I have found to be quite lucrative). They award what was won but don't display the "100,000 points" or the "New Cadillac" you could have won if you had only "tipped the right cow."

Since there is no coin in on a slot club kiosk, I assume they can do anything they want since it's not a gaming machine.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Paigowdan

Standard/Mandatory Casino Games that you can certainly expect to find on the casino floor:
1. Blackjack
2. Craps
3. Roulette
4. Pai Gow Poker (left "Carny" status about 2000)
5. Baccarat
6. Three Card Poker (Left Carny status about 2004)

This is the breakdown as considered by the Gaming industry, "The Standard Table Games" list. If not on the Standard/mandatory games list, it is a Carny game."

Dan, you have this in quotes: "The Standard Table Games" list.
If not on the Standard/mandatory games list, it is a Carny game."

Where is this quoted from?

It's quoted in the executive offices of casino operators and table game distributors.
The list is used as the basic table game list by the Industry on basic table game casino pit configurations and on all their "fill sheets" for table game operations.

Quote: EvenBob

I Googled it and nothing came up.

And your point is?.....

Quote: EvenBob

Other sources say anything that was invented and leased or
sold to the casino industry is considered a carnival game.

Those sources are probably external to table game operations. There are sources who say the world is flat, some at this board. Casino operators say that when a game is mandatory to offer and not optional, it is a mainstay game.

Quote: EvenBob

Pai Gow Poker was invented by Sam Torosian and Fred Wolf in
the 1980's. Its still considered a carnival game, as is Three
Card Poker.

For that matter, Modern American Craps was invented by an individual also, a Mr. John H. Winn of Philedelphia during the turn to the 20th centery. [Source: John Scarne] This is not a carnival game, even though craps was directly invented by an individual, and IS a proprietary/licensed game in many forms, if with the fire bet (via shufflemaster), etc., even though it is a mainstay standard casino game. Any game that a casino manager is told to install as a standard game offering is a standard and required casino game, and is not a carnival game. If a casino manager tells his corporate office, "You know, I think I'll remove the Three Card Poker table or some Baccarat Tables and install some Rupert's Island Draw games!" will be told by his corprorate management in no uncertain terms to install the standard games first, such as Three Card Poker - before installing Carnival games such as Rupert's Island Draw. He would also be demoted from his casino manager's position.

Quote: EvenBob

Elliot Jacobson says anything outside of the 4 traditional table
games of craps, roulette, BJ, and baccarat, are carnival games.

Eliot is wrong. Mainstay and standard casino games are determined by casino operators based on real casino demand and installations, and not by Eliot. There both way more Three Card Poker tables and Pai Gow Poker tables in the U.S. than there are Baccarat tables, Crap tables, and Roulette Wheels. PGP tables number about 2,000 tables, and Three card poker over 1,000. We have at Fiesta more PGP tables than craps, or roulette, with NO Baccarat tables.

Quote: EvenBob

He says EZ Pai Gow is a carnival game with a good name,
because it piggy backs on a well known carnival game.

No, EZ Pai Gow and EZ Baccarat are transparent variations of the mainstay standard games, Pai Gow Poker and Baccarat, which are casino table game requirements. Any casino operator (such as the Cannery Group, The Riviera Hotel and casino, etc) may install EZ pai Gow or EZ Baccarat as their "Pai Gow Poker" game or as "their Baccarat game" installation and count it as Pai Gow poker or Baccarat; - indeed, many have. The drawing rules and hand setting rules were not modified. Mini Pai Gow and Pai Gow Express are carnival games, they modified the house way rules into different games, and cannot be installed as a baseline Pai Gow Poker game.

Quote: EvenBob

The Big 6 Wheel, or Wheel of Fortune, is in many casinos.
It seems to be everywhere. It origins are ancient, it has
no inventor just like craps or roulette doesn't.

No, craps had a specific inventor, as did Pai Gow Poker. They are also public domain games not subject to patent protection in their basic game configurations. So are three card poker and LIR and Carribean Stud at this point. What defines standard mainstay games is the game list of the games that go in first - as required offerings, and as determined by casino operators. Faro and Hazard are now considered Carnival Games, although they used to be considered mainstay standard table games for gambling halls around 1905, not 2005 or today.

Quote: EvenBob

Yet its still
considered a carnival game because its not one of the main
4 casino backbone games.

No, Three Card Poker and PGP are on the list of the six standard casino games that casino operators use. If you ran a casino, or sold games to casinos, you would know the situation.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, Three Card Poker and PGP are on the list of the six standard casino games that casino operators use.

So, once again Dan, every single source I found
is wrong and you're right. Even down to quoting
from yet another secret insider casino document.
You have secret rules, secret lists, and you're
single handedly going to change perceptions if
you just keep spouting your beliefs.

Do you know what tilting at windmills means,
Dan?

Quote: Paigowdan

No, EZ Pai Gow and EZ Baccarat are transparent variations of the mainstay standard games, Pai Gow Poker and Baccarat, which are casino table game requirements. Any casino operator (such as the Cannery Group, The Riviera Hotel and casino, etc) may install EZ pai Gow or EZ Baccarat as their "Pai Gow Poker" game or as "their Baccarat game" installation and count it as Pai Gow poker or Baccarat; - indeed, many have. The drawing rules and hand setting rules were not modified.

This certainly true. In the north San Diego area, there is no such thing as a traditional Baccarat table, it is all EZ Baccarat, and there are plenty of $50 and $100 midi tables. Players are just as satisfies with the 'carnival' version of the game, and like it even better because of that silly 40/1 dragon side bet.