May 17 show with Roger Snow

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May 11th, 2012 at 8:16:09 AM permalink

With all the successful games and installs he has, it's no wonder why is has been elevated to Exec VP at ShuffleMaster.

But at what level did he start there? How long did it take before he started cranking out games and climbing the ladder?

With virtually no casino experience when he arrived to Vegas in 1997, in what capacities was he employed while at Mirage, Bellagio and Bally's?

Did he create any games PRIOR to joining SM?

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ �� Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Wizard
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May 11th, 2012 at 8:28:58 AM permalink

Good questions. Interesting how we both came to Vegas rather cold at about the same time (I was four years later) to strike it out in the business of new casino games. If I may toot my own horn, I think we both did well at it.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

buzzpaff

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May 11th, 2012 at 8:49:51 AM permalink

Is Roger concerned about games cannibalizing each other? By that I mean one SMI poker game simply replacing another.
What does Roger see in the future for I-table games ?

MathExtremist

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May 11th, 2012 at 8:56:04 AM permalink

Quote: Wizard
Here is some information Roger kindly sent to me to prepare for the show. I assume he won't mind that I'm posting it here.

Quote: Roger Snow Notes

6. Favorite game that�s not a success:
a. Dealer Bluff (co-invented with Stacey Friedman and John Muskin).

Just in case you end up putting this info on the Internet in a more permanent home, it's "Stacy" and "Jon".

"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

Wizard
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May 11th, 2012 at 9:17:42 AM permalink

Quote: MathExtremist
Just in case you end up putting this info on the Internet in a more permanent home, it's "Stacy" and "Jon".

I just fixed that. While that game didn't do well at the Wynn, I didn't know it was filed in the "notable failures" folder, at least not until now.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

FleaStiff

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May 11th, 2012 at 10:43:14 AM permalink

Some people describe the Strip as huge themed resorts and Locals Casinos as small Plain Vanilla boxes but it seems that any new games get their start in the smaller Local Casinos. Is this due to entrepreneurial spirit or simply that the executives are more accessible and don't make decisions by committee? I would think the smaller casinos would be the ones least likely to give a new game a try-out since their focus is on fewer frills, fewer options.

EvenBob

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May 11th, 2012 at 1:41:58 PM permalink

Roger invented the Dragon bet for bac? I won't let
my wife play bac with me anymore because of that
stupid bet. She has to bet it on every hand because
she won on it one time. And I have Roger to thank?
Er, blame? Figures..

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

Wizard
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May 11th, 2012 at 3:06:55 PM permalink

Quote: EvenBob
I won't let my wife play bac with me anymore because of that stupid bet.

Hey!, I did the original math on that and would like to think I played a part in shaping the pay table you see today.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

EvenBob

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May 11th, 2012 at 5:14:26 PM permalink

OK, so I blame you too. Its a sucker bet and
my wife's a sucker. You know its a sucker bet,
you've said as much. I see where it can be
counted down, but I'm not that desperate.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

DJTeddyBear

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May 13th, 2012 at 7:15:28 AM permalink

As mentioned recently in the Ultimate Texas HoldEm thread, as well as in other threads, casinos sometimes do not pay the bonus bets if the dealer's hand doesn't qualify.

Is that acceptable? How does Roger / SM react to such a thing when they hear about it? What should the gambler do about it?

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ �� Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

ChesterDog

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May 13th, 2012 at 7:13:15 PM permalink

Quote: buzzpaff
...What does Roger see in the future for I-table games ?

Do ShuffleMaster Vegas Star Craps bets have the same EV as actual craps bets? (Today in New York City, I saw Resorts World's Vegas Star machines.)

buzzpaff

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May 13th, 2012 at 7:44:48 PM permalink

Can the casinos set pay tables in Digital BJ Craps etc to any value or does SMI offer a set of values, similar to pay tables for VP
and/or Slot machines hold ??

DJTeddyBear

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May 15th, 2012 at 7:33:49 AM permalink

Is there any significance to his WoV chosen name of "Pacman" ?

Admitedly, this question has a very low priority....

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ �� Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

UCivan

UCivan

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May 15th, 2012 at 8:36:11 AM permalink

I would like to hear from him, "what kind of educational background, gaming or professional experiences led him to design great games?"

Paradigm

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May 15th, 2012 at 8:42:58 AM permalink

Wiz,

Here is what I thought of to ask Roger:

1) What impact will approval of online gaming in the US have on the live table game pit of brick & morter casino's?
2) Progressive Bets have become a big emphasis on SMI, but what makes a good progressive? Do you need a 1 in 25,000 or 1 in 100,000 or 1 in 1,000,000 type event in order to have a good progressive bet. Tough to get those types of events in a BJ or Bacc game which I guess is why we don't see progressives there.
3) The cannibalization question by Buzz is a good one and I would add at what point does he believe there is saturization with poker variants? We now have 1-Card Poker (Casino War), 3 Card Games (Originial, Ultimate, Mulligan), 4 Card Games (Crazy 4 Poker, Four Card Poker, No Flop Pineapple), 5 Card games(Let It Ride, Caribbean Stud, Deuces Wild Poker, Boston 5)), 6 Card games (6 Card Poker, Rabbit Hunter, Dealer Bluff, Bonus 6), 7 Card games (UTH, Texas Hold'em Bonus, etc), 8 Card games (Hong Kong Poker).....you aren't really going to have 10 different poker variants on the floor so at what point are there enough options for DTG's to chose from?
4) How does Roger envision the table game pit changing over the next 10 years? 20 years?
5) BJ is one of the lowest hold percentage games the casino has on the floor. How is BJ going to change over the next decade to bring it's performance more in line with other games on the floor (i.e. is 3/2 BJ pays (going to 6/5) the first of many feature to be taken away from BJ players going forward that will make BJ purists unable to find a true BJ game 10 years from now).

Should be a good show, looking forward to hearing what Roger has to say.

RoyalBJ

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May 15th, 2012 at 8:54:22 AM permalink

Two questions for Roger (1) SMI's international business: how does SMI sell / market table games to abroad, like Macau, Singapore or Cambodia where the term "intellectual property" doesn't mean nothing. What is the strategy? (2) Is it true that 3 Card Poker's patent has expired?

Paigowdan

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May 15th, 2012 at 10:10:32 AM permalink

Quote: DJTeddyBear
As mentioned recently in the Ultimate Texas HoldEm thread, as well as in other threads, casinos sometimes do not pay the bonus bets if the dealer's hand doesn't qualify.

Is that acceptable? How does Roger / SM react to such a thing when they hear about it? What should the gambler do about it?

Floormen and dealers make mistakes, they're human, sometimes too human.
The official game sheets submitted by Shuffle, DEQ, Galaxy, et al, for game approval are clear and thoroughly on a game's play procedure. Do not blame the game distributor for the casino pit's error in game implementation, which is common. Often, there is re-training or notification as a response. Gamblers can raise an issue on it to the floor or management.

A good example is of this is not getting paid on the ANTE bonus in three-card when a straight or better loses to an even stronger hand. Because it is so rare, this is often overlooked by the dealer and floor. What we do is pay the ANTE bonus next to the spot that lost.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Paigowdan

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May 15th, 2012 at 10:24:03 AM permalink

On game cannibalization:
It is a good point that new games cannibalize some older games when released. This is also a bit like newer model releases of cars cannibalizing older models, in the sense that the market (or casino floor space) is finite, - the market cannot expand indefinitely.

So it becomes a process of evolution in order to keep the same market share: adapt or die.

It is also not really cannibalization unless a competitor is taking the real estate you formally held.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

rdw4potus

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May 15th, 2012 at 10:42:18 AM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
On game cannibalization:
It is a good point that new games cannibalize some older games when released. This is also a bit like newer model releases of cars cannibalizing older models, in the sense that the market (or casino floor space) is finite, - the market cannot expand indefinitely.

So it becomes a process of evolution in order to keep the same market share: adapt or die.

It is also not really cannibalization unless a competitor is taking the real estate you formally held.

This is where marketing and clout become important, isn't it?

Roger's gotta say "no, don't take out UTH to put in Rabbit Hunter. You'd much rather drop a 3 card table, wouldn't you?"

"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett

TheBigPaybak

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May 15th, 2012 at 10:45:23 AM permalink

Two quick ones:
1. What competitive products do you most respect thinking, "Wow- I should have thought of that?"

2. Do you feel play-for-free games will significantly help increase the acceptance of new games, such as Rabbit Hunter?

Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.

ShiftyRicky

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May 15th, 2012 at 11:05:52 AM permalink

I too would like to hear Roger's view on Casino's changing the rules or pay tables on SM games.

This is in response to the UTH debate...should the trips bet be pid if the do no make the play bet.

Tell him to bring back the ACE shuffler!!!

"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"

TheBigPaybak

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May 15th, 2012 at 11:08:34 AM permalink

Quote: ShiftyRicky
Tell him to bring back the ACE shuffler!!!

Why?

Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.

Paigowdan

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May 15th, 2012 at 11:12:46 AM permalink

Quote: TheBigPaybak
Two quick ones:
1. What competitive products do you most respect thinking, "Wow- I should have thought of that?"

There is a bit of "Duh! I should have thought of that!" situation that exists among game designers. Some lesser game designers copy and plagiarize some ideas. But Roger's very original and fresh, constantly searching.
I felt this way about Roger's Dragon Bonus for Baccarat (disagreeing with Bob), with it being the first good paytable type side bet for Baccarat.
I also felt this way about Dave Miller's Poker for Roulette. I'd like to believe that Roger felt that way about EZ Pai Gow.

Quote: TheBigPayback
2. Do you feel play-for-free games will significantly help increase the acceptance of new games, such as Rabbit Hunter?

Good new twists and takes on games are exactly the kind of thing that may work.
We have NO true idea of what will work - UNTIL it does work in a real casino.
Non-producing games are worthless in a business sense, until they become producing, no matter what we think of our own babies. They are like grown kids who sleep on the couch until they move out and get a job, and send some money home to Pop!
I will say we have come a LONG way since the 1940's to the 1980's, when all we had were bear-bones BJ, craps, cherry slots, and Roulette.
I play UTH, Three Card Poker, Crazy 4 Poker, and the Fire bet.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

UCivan

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May 15th, 2012 at 11:16:39 AM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan

I play UTH, Three Card Poker, Crazy 4 Poker, and the Fire bet.

Dan, is it true that Three Card Poker's patent has expired?

ShiftyRicky

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May 15th, 2012 at 11:16:47 AM permalink

I like the fact that is does not have card recognnition, and it seemed to not "go down" as much. I got rid of all shufflers at one time just because of this. I do have some now, but only on my BJ games, I needed to raise my hands/hour. As casino's, we get blamed for "rigging" things all the time. The last thing I need or wanted was a machine that could do the things that the new shufflers can.

Nothing against SM, just a personal choice we made for our casino.

"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"

MathExtremist

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May 15th, 2012 at 11:25:40 AM permalink

Quote: UCivan
Dan, is it true that Three Card Poker's patent has expired?

I think US 6,237,916 is the Three Card Poker patent, and that shouldn't expire until 2015 if I'm doing it right. You'd need to see the full file history to look into any patent term adjustments.

"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

TheBigPaybak

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May 15th, 2012 at 11:40:38 AM permalink

Quote: ShiftyRicky
I like the fact that is does not have card recognnition, and it seemed to not "go down" as much. I got rid of all shufflers at one time just because of this. I do have some now, but only on my BJ games, I needed to raise my hands/hour. As casino's, we get blamed for "rigging" things all the time. The last thing I need or wanted was a machine that could do the things that the new shufflers can.

Nothing against SM, just a personal choice we made for our casino.

That's interesting. As a player, the new shufflers seem to be quicker and more reliable than the Ace's, although I do see them have issues at times. And I have heard certain patrons making comments about them when they realize they can read cards. From security/speed standpoints, you would think you would want the new machines, but I'm from the outside looking in- and I'm sure you ran the numbers both ways at this point so in your case, it sounds like it's working out.

Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.

TheBigPaybak

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May 15th, 2012 at 11:49:34 AM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
We have NO true idea of what will work - UNTIL it does work in a real casino.

It's interesting, I suppose my main point is whether or not some of the new games are given enough of a chance to prove themselves as there will be a period of apprehension on any new game, such as Dealer's Bluff or Rabbit Hunter. Having an online version available to get up to speed would be helpful as would at least a basic strategy card- which they did do for Rabbit Hunter at MotorCity- although I haven't verified how optimal its strategy is.

I can't help but think EZ Pai Gow will gain more traction in the future. EZ Baccarat is a bona fide hit.

Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.

buzzpaff

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May 15th, 2012 at 12:06:49 PM permalink

" It is also not really cannibalization unless a competitor is taking the real estate you formally held. "

cannabalization to me meant eating your own. Having a new SMI table game replacing a different SMI table game.

Plus would really like to hear his opinion on i-table, e-table whatever. Kids nowaday think you are really old if you played solitaire with a physical deck of cards.

DJTeddyBear

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May 15th, 2012 at 12:14:51 PM permalink

Quote: TheBigPaybak
... Having an online version available to get up to speed would be helpful as would at least a basic strategy card- which they did do for Rabbit Hunter at MotorCity- although I haven't verified how optimal its strategy is.

I'm not so sure.

While I used the online version of 7-14-21 to get a VERY good feel for the game before I sat down at the Palms last October, how many of the typical players will make an effort to learn what new games are at the casino they are going to, before they go there?

And if they managed to find out the names of the new games, even if they were provided with the url for the demo version, how many would make extensive use of it?

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ �� Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

TheBigPaybak

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May 15th, 2012 at 12:22:39 PM permalink

Quote: DJTeddyBear
I'm not so sure.

While I used the online version of 7-14-21 to get a VERY good feel for the game before I sat down at the Palms last October, how many of the typical players will make an effort to learn what new games are at the casino they are going to, before they go there?

And if they managed to find out the names of the new games, even if they were provided with the url for the demo version, how many would make extensive use of it?

I suppose I was thinking of an incremental improvement- especially when casinos start to update their web strategies to allow for online play. From what I understand, Shufflemaster will be offering all of their games in a play-for-free mode, either on their own website or to be made available on casino web sites. Email and print marketing could be coordinated with such efforts: "Hey! Check out our new game on our website before you come in and play it!"

But as you say, will people do it? I think I would- and I think younger players would. Older players? Not so much, I would think. When you have the CEO of, I believe Bally, stating their ultimate goal is to have their content everywhere: casino, Internet, Mobile - things are indeed headed for change. It will be interesting!

Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.

FinsRule

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May 15th, 2012 at 12:26:31 PM permalink

Pacman - He's going to gobble up games leaving nothing behind...

EvenBob

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May 15th, 2012 at 1:38:04 PM permalink

I would ask him if its true that he dresses up as Darth Vader or Lord
Valdemort every Halloween.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

Paigowdan

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May 15th, 2012 at 1:41:38 PM permalink

Quote: UCivan
Dan, is it true that Three Card Poker's patent has expired?

Yes, or just about in a couple of years. It is a very mature game.
Also realize that games can be protected via other methods also, such as trademarks, etc., in a "life-extender" fashion.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

UCivan

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May 15th, 2012 at 3:34:46 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Yes, or just about in a couple of years. It is a very mature game.
Also realize that games can be protected via other methods also, such as trademarks, etc., in a "life-extender" fashion.

An Executive at Station Casino told me it has expired in this past March.

Paigowdan

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May 15th, 2012 at 3:54:48 PM permalink

Quote: UCivan
An Executive at Station Casino told me it has expired in this past March.

I heard this was the case, but the patent file history would have to be reviewed to make sure.
Stations has a good relationship with SMI, and probably would not bust out a public domain clone of Three Card Poker.
Even if it is expired, and many casinos adopted generic, public domain versions of it, the game had a great run.
Everybody end up on Easy Street from the proceeds, in spite of some squabbling.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

rdw4potus

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May 15th, 2012 at 5:32:09 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
I heard this was the case, but the patent file history would have to be reviewed to make sure.
Stations has a good relationship with SMI, and probably would not bust out a public domain clone of Three Card Poker.
Even if it is expired, and many casinos adopted generic, public domain versions of it, the game had a great run.
Everybody end up on Easy Street from the proceeds, in spite of some squabbling.

Don't the secondary patents on the layout and progressive game provide SMI with some partial protection? Another party may now be able to offer a version of the base game, but most have the SMI progressive tables in now and the patent on the side bet is significantly younger than the patent on the base game.

"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett

Wizard
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May 17th, 2012 at 9:40:44 PM permalink

Thanks again for all the questions.

The show is up on my Odds site: May 17 show with Roger Snow.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Paigowdan

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May 17th, 2012 at 11:53:28 PM permalink

Quote: rdw4potus
Don't the secondary patents on the layout and progressive game provide SMI with some partial protection? Another party may now be able to offer a version of the base game, but most have the SMI progressive tables in now and the patent on the side bet is significantly younger than the patent on the base game.

Yes - a casino would have to place a "bare bones" older version, with a generic name, to exclude the later patented enhancements.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Paradigm

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May 18th, 2012 at 11:00:43 AM permalink

I thought the show with Roger was excellent, good information and glad to hear that another game along with Wiz's was being considered by SMI. I wish the SHFL Focus 2 group participants good luck, clearly SMI is looking for games to add to their portfolio.

Geoff Hall's interview next week will likely also be a good show for game developers and others interested in the story of a very successful game developer. I hope Wiz encourages Geoff to share how he got involved in the business & what he has learned along the way.

Some of those details along with other developers stories are also included in Eliot Jacobson's book "Contemporary Casino Table Game Design" which is an excellent read for those interested in the game development business.

Wizard
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May 18th, 2012 at 11:14:29 AM permalink

I thought Roger was excellent as well.

The show with Goeff Hall, our own Switch, was prerecorded about two months ago. To be honest, I don't remember very well what we asked him.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

odiousgambit

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May 19th, 2012 at 1:01:48 AM permalink

I came away wondering if I knew what a 'carnival' game was. If it is a card game played at a table, what makes it carnival or not?

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: �Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!� She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

Switch

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May 19th, 2012 at 4:13:17 AM permalink

Quote: odiousgambit
I came away wondering if I knew what a 'carnival' game was. If it is a card game played at a table, what makes it carnival or not?

A carnival game is basically a non-traditional game played in the casino. It has derisory undertones so I don't particularly like the term.

Switch

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May 19th, 2012 at 4:14:26 AM permalink

Quote: Wizard
I thought Roger was excellent as well.

The show with Goeff Hall, our own Switch, was prerecorded about two months ago. To be honest, I don't remember very well what we asked him.

All I remember is that it went so quickly I had trouble recapping what was said the next day let alone 2 months later :-)

Paigowdan

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May 19th, 2012 at 4:24:02 AM permalink

Quote: odiousgambit
I came away wondering if I knew what a 'carnival' game was. If it is a card game played at a table, what makes it carnival or not?

A "Carnival game" simply means a "non-standard table game" that is optional for a casino to offer. It has nothing to do with a game's house edge, it has to do with a game being newer and less common that the table games you will always find offered at a casino as absolutely standard or de rigeur, obligatory.
Carnvial Table Games include:
1. Crazy 4 Poker
2. Deuces Wild (Hold 'em Fold 'em)
3. Acey-Deucey
4. Flop Poker
5. Blackjack Switch
6. Super-Fun 21
etc.

Standard/Mandatory Casino Games that you can certainly expect to find on the casino floor:
1. Blackjack
2. Craps
3. Roulette
4. Pai Gow Poker (left "Carny" status about 2000)
5. Baccarat
6. Three Card Poker (Left Carny status about 2004)

This is the breakdown as considered by the Gaming industry, "The Standard Table Games" list. If not on the Standard/mandatory games list, it is a Carny game."

1. The moniker "Carnival Game" is slightly derisive. WTF. Call them also "proprietary table games."
2. The list is decided by the industry in terms of:
- Number of total installs and overwhelming popularity; both three Card Poker and Pai Gow poker exceed either Craps or Baccarat in total number of tables installed.
- what a casino must have present as expected/required table game offerings;
- what dealers are expected to know as part of their "basic core games skill set."
- what surveillance personnel must know as their basic core games skill set.
- has nothing to do with house edge.
- Some Carnival games become standard/de rigeur games over time. Three Card Poker and pai Gow Poker became standard "non-carnival" games fairly recently. Three Card Poker is 100% a standard mainstay game now, and not at all a carnival game now. There are twice as many players of Three Card poker than of Craps or Baccarat.
- Blackjack was once a carnival game that once replace the mainstay game of Faro in gambling halls (around 1920).
- Craps was once a carnival game that replaced three-dice Hazard around 1915. Both Faro and Hazard are extinct.
- Baccarat came later.

Within the mainstay table games:"
New Break-in dealers are required to know only Blackjack and Three-card, or one of the "Two Tough games (craps or Roulette)" plus either BJ or Three Card, - of the main-stay "standard games" list.
Some small casinos install Three-card poker before they even think about expanding to Pai Gow Poker, and only the big dollar casinos offer Baccarat.
Joker's Wild on Boulder highway as one crap table, one Roulette Wheel, two blackjack tables, and a $2 Three Card Poker table as their five-table main pit. And they close Roulette before they close three Card sometimes. Three Card poker, as a mainstay game, is in front of Pai Gow poker and baccarat, and is sometimes in front of Roulette.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Wizard
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May 19th, 2012 at 5:44:13 AM permalink

Quote: Switch
A carnival game is basically a non-traditional game played in the casino. It has derisory undertones so I don't particularly like the term.

I agree that there needs to be a better term. "Proprietary" is too much of a mouthful, and overly formal. What term do you suggest?

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Switch

Switch

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May 19th, 2012 at 5:50:17 AM permalink

Quote: Wizard
I agree that there needs to be a better term. "Proprietary" is too much of a mouthful, and overly formal. What term do you suggest?

"Developed", "Novel" and "Contemporary" are less derisory and all 3 would fit the correct description in my opinion.

MrCasinoGames

MrCasinoGames

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May 19th, 2012 at 5:58:59 AM permalink

Quote: Switch
"Developed", "Novel" and "Contemporary" are less derisory and all 3 would fit the correct description in my opinion.

"Novel" sounds OK.

Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com

Wizard
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