May 10 show with Bob Nersesian
What would you like to ask Nersesian if you had the chance?
I did not give up my rights as an American citizen when I entered that casino.
Quote: buzzpaffIf I am asked by casino personnel to go to a backroom, what are my rights?
I'm also wondering this.
ferocity they had 10 years ago or have they
backed off some?
What player problem do you get the most
calls about?
Do you ever side with the casino on anything?
Quote: buzzpaffIf I am asked by casino personnel to go to a backroom, what are my rights? I consider this kidnapping. I am perfectly willing to stand quietly until a policeman arrives. But if anyone lays a hand on me, I will defend myself. Being 71, a Vietnam Veteran, I did not do my service as an American to be manhandled by casino employees. I did not give up my rights as an American citizen when I entered that casino.
He writes extensively about that in his book. I think we would need a more specific question.
Although I'm not an attorney, I have read his book, and know people who were illegally back-roomed. That said, my advice would be to bear in mind that everything in and near the holding cell should have cameras and microphones. You should say repeatedly that you are there under duress, that you broke no law, and request to leave. As long as you are don't get physical then they probably won't either. If they do, despite your strong feelings about it, I would not fight back. For one thing, you're not going to win. For another, it will look a lot better to a jury if the fight was one-way. You can fight back on principle, but I can just see your punitive damages award of half a million going to 50 thousand.
I'm quite sure Nersesian would say more or less the same thing.
Quote: EvenBobAre casinos still going after AP's with the same
ferocity they had 10 years ago or have they
backed off some?
I think he should get a lot of credit that the casinos are not. In his first interview he said that no Vegas attorneys wanted to represent players before him. I strongly believe that because of Nersesian the casinos, especially the Vegas ones, are much better behaved. Maybe I'll work this into something I say and see if he comments on it. If I ask it then it would put him in an awkward spot to toot his own horn.
Quote: EvenBobWhat player problem do you get the most calls about?
Not bad. I think he doesn't get a huge volume of calls, but lives off a big rain-maker cases.
Quote:Do you ever side with the casino on anything?
He said in one of the other interviews that the casinos have every right to get "slot walkers" arrested, as long as the trolls are obviously taking a money that has not been abandoned, for example waiting for a player to be distracted, and then hitting "cash out" and stealing his/her TITO slip. He clearly doesn't like the casinos, but I'm sure takes their side in legitimate cases of player theft and cheating.
change if you could.
Many AP's consider casinos to be evil places and they
deserve whatever happens to them as far as advantage
play is concerned. Do you agree with this assessment?
What has changed the most about your practice since
you started?
2. Would it likely have a favorable impact on the back room experience if I had one of your business cards prominently displayed in my wallet, perhaps clipped to my ID?
Personally, I have Bob's number in my cell phone at the ready. In one of the previous shows I think Bob Dancer made that recommendation, although I've had it there for years. He also said in a previous show that it is a good idea to indicate you plan to take legal action in the backroom. As I recall the story, one of his clients said "I'm going to enjoy owning half your casino because of this," which he said worked in his favor.
What is the status of the Wynn dice-sliding case, both criminal (ha!) and the civil suit by Wynn?
Have dice setters been backroomed or 86'ed like card counters?
How many gambler vs. casino cases does he do in a year, and how many settle, are dropped, or go to trial?
Are the judges in the pockets of the casinos like the local government is?
What are the remaining vestiges of the mob, aka mafia, in / around the casinos and related businesses in Las Vegas?
Do you take your typical backroomed case on an hourly or contingent basis?
Quote: teddysIt's kind of law-nerdy, but I'd like to hear him comment on the case law precedent he uses to win cases for his clients, specifically what Nevada Supreme Court stand for the propositions that advantage players may play without harassment from casinos. He mentions some of them in the transcript from the Grosjean trial.
I love nerdy questions! Can you help with the wording on it a little more. I don't quite understand the question.
Quote: MrVWhat is the status of the Wynn dice-sliding case, both criminal (ha!) and the civil suit by Wynn?
Good question.
Quote: MrVHave dice setters been backroomed or 86'ed like card counters?
I highly doubt it.
Quote: MrVHow many gambler vs. casino cases does he do in a year, and how many settle, are dropped, or go to trial?
I'll make that a low-priority one.
Quote: MrVAre the judges in the pockets of the casinos like the local government is?
Even if he thought that he wouldn't want to insult them on the air. He has to face them in court all the time and there still is such a thing as respect. There is no way I would ask him that.
Quote: MrVWhat are the remaining vestiges of the mob, aka mafia, in / around the casinos and related businesses in Las Vegas?
Too general.
Quote: MrVDo you take your typical backroomed case on an hourly or contingent basis?
I'm sure it is contingency, unless the player could afford his $450/hr fee.
How many AP cases have actually gone to trial?
Has he ever had a "whale" (OK, or even an "orca") as a client in an AP or related case?
Has a Nevada casino ever prosecuted a patron who found a chip or cash / cash ticket and pocketed it instead of turning it in to the casino, and if so, what result?
After time has passed, does the casino have the right to ask the player to return it?
In this situation, can a player insist upon seeing the video?
---
FYI: I understand that there would be no way in hell that a player would be brought to the surveilance room to view the video. However, modern security equipment has the capability of extracting video clips, and creating mpeg files which can then be viewed on any computer, and a variey of portable devices. Note that I understand the privacy issue involving other people who happen to be in the shot, so I don't expect to be given a copy of the mpeg, but can't I just view it?
Quote: WizardI love nerdy questions! Can you help with the wording on it a little more. I don't quite understand the question.
Okay. So, I'm curious about what Nevada law says about advantage-player rights. Obviously, there is no statute that says advantage play is kosher. It's from case law. Can you ask him what specific Nevada Supreme Court cases he relies on when advocating a case for a client who, say, is backroomed or harassed at a casino when the casino claims they are a "cheater?" I'm sure there are a couple.
Also, does he need a law clerk, soon-to-be-licensed lawyer? :)
( This has happened to me and many other people ) As I pressed the max play button, I saw a woman approaching with a paper cup in her hand. She had been playing the machine and went to the free coffee self serve stand. I apologized and walked away.
But suppose I had hit the mega jackpot on that spin. Would she have a claim to it ? After all, her credits were actually next in line when I pressed the button ??
NERDY enough WIZ
1) Vis-a-vis the Wynn dice-sliding case, what is his opinion on the legality of attempted dice influencing via gentle, on-axis throwing? Put another way, suppose it were indeed possible to influence the dice such that they no longer had an equally-likely chance of each face appearing. In his opinion, would that be "altering the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine the amount or frequency of payment in a game?" (NRS 465.015, definition of "cheat") Does "altering the criteria" include dice influencing, or does "alter" only mean an actual change in the dice themselves (e.g. loaded dice)? The ultimate question is whether attempting to influence the dice is an attempt to cheat and thus a felony under NRS 465. In addition to his opinion on the matter, has this ever been addressed by the Nevada courts? I know they addressed a related issue in Skipper v State, but that was related to surreptitiously sliding the dice, and the opinion hinged on "surreptitiously". I want to know if someone who openly throws the dice in an attempted controlled manner is an attempted cheater (because, frankly, you see this all the time at the dice tables).
2) Has he ever dealt with a player vs. casino case related to slot machine malfunctions and allegedly-erroneous jackpots -- in other words, the player's machine locks up with a message that says something like "Jackpot: $42,083,382.37" but then the casino cites a malfunction and doesn't pay? If so, in his experience, what's the difference between such a dispute resolving in favor of the player as opposed to the casino?
Quote: buzzpaffI walked up to a slot machine and there is no one else around. I did not notice there are credits on the machine. I put a $5 bill in it.
( This has happened to me and many other people ) As I pressed the max play button, I saw a woman approaching with a paper cup in her hand. She had been playing the machine and went to the free coffee self serve stand. I apologized and walked away.
But suppose I had hit the mega jackpot on that spin. Would she have a claim to it ? After all, her credits were actually next in line when I pressed the button ??
There is a general rule that the person who pressed the button gets credit for the jackpot. So the cup woman would have a very weak claim. Remember, I'm not a lawyer, but I get asked this stuff a lot, so try to know the basics.
Suppose you never put in money and hit the jackpot. Then it gets more legally fuzzy. Nersesian addressed a simlar situation in a previous appearance on the show. I think they would review the tapes to see if you made a good faith effort to see if anybody was monitoring the machine. If you did, and the lady with the cup was turned the other way, then I think you would have a legitimate claim, although you may have to fight for it. If the cup lady was doing a decent job keeping an eye on the machine, and you tried to swoop in on it, then the casino would probably be justified in not awarding it to anybody.
Quote: MathExtremist1) Vis-a-vis the Wynn dice-sliding case, what is his opinion on the legality of attempted dice influencing via gentle, on-axis throwing? Put another way, suppose it were indeed possible to influence the dice such that they no longer had an equally-likely chance of each face appearing. In his opinion, would that be "altering the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine the amount or frequency of payment in a game?" (NRS 465.015, definition of "cheat") Does "altering the criteria" include dice influencing, or does "alter" only mean an actual change in the dice themselves (e.g. loaded dice)? The ultimate question is whether attempting to influence the dice is an attempt to cheat and thus a felony under NRS 465. In addition to his opinion on the matter, has this ever been addressed by the Nevada courts? I know they addressed a related issue in Skipper v State, but that was related to surreptitiously sliding the dice, and the opinion hinged on "surreptitiously". I want to know if someone who openly throws the dice in an attempted controlled manner is an attempted cheater (because, frankly, you see this all the time at the dice tables).
Good question, and I'm going to give this one a high priority. It seems to me that the casino is responsible to police their own games when it comes to things like dice sliding. I think the Wynn has a very weak case, but am interested in Nersesian's opinion on it.
Quote: MathExtremist2) Has he ever dealt with a player vs. casino case related to slot machine malfunctions and allegedly-erroneous jackpots -- in other words, the player's machine locks up with a message that says something like "Jackpot: $42,083,382.37" but then the casino cites a malfunction and doesn't pay? If so, in his experience, what's the difference between such a dispute resolving in favor of the player as opposed to the casino?
Another good one. I've never heard him address jackpot dispute cases, but wonder if he welcomes them. If I were the judge, I would have to look at the reason for the alleged malfunction. There clearly needs to be elaboration on the exact definition of the word "malfunction" as many cases have hinged on it, and similar cases have gone both ways in Nevada.
Her ass presses the max play button and the machine hits the jackpot. She starts squealing "WE won,We won."
I say " What do you mean " WE" She says " Ok, then I won."
Does she has a valid claim on the jackpot ? She's just a one night stand, not my wife !
Quote: buzzpaffDoes she has a valid claim on the jackpot ? She's just a one night stand, not my wife !
My guess is that her claim is as strong as your desire not to have your wife know about the incident.
Quote: MathExtremist2) Has he ever dealt with a player vs. casino case related to slot machine malfunctions and allegedly-erroneous jackpots -- in other words, the player's machine locks up with a message that says something like "Jackpot: $42,083,382.37" but then the casino cites a malfunction and doesn't pay? If so, in his experience, what's the difference between such a dispute resolving in favor of the player as opposed to the casino?
I am interested in this one. In my past, I have been involved in analyzing several machine malfunctions. One time, about 8 or 10 years ago, I investigated one and I found that the slot manufacturer was at fault and knew about the problem - they just hadn't nailed down the cause. I think the player was rightfully due $4 million, but she didn't know better. Also, in the casino reports, statements show that the casino refused to let her take photos of the machine. She requested the casino to take a picture for their wall of jackpot winners as well; the casino did, but in their statements, they said that the casino was lucky that the photo was out of focus. I think it is horrible when people get this kind of treatment.
Of course, there are other issues that are simply a malfunction. When the graphics go haywire and the machine pops up a jackpot of 42 million for no apparent reason, then the reasonable player knows it is a malfunction. Of course, the adrenaline from seeing the 42 million plastered on the screen will throw all logic out the window.
Quote: buzzpaff" There is a general rule that the person who pressed the button gets credit for the jackpot." I am playing a slot machine and my drunken girlfriend is standing next to me. As she tries to give me a kiss for good luck, she falls backwards into the slot machine.
Her ass presses the max play button and the machine hits the jackpot. She starts squealing "WE won,We won."
I say " What do you mean " WE" She says " Ok, then I won."
Does she has a valid claim on the jackpot ? She's just a one night stand, not my wife !
That is a good question. I would say the girl does have a valid claim to the jackpot, since her ass pressed the button. If you dispute it, surveilance video will cleary show you two were together. What might happen if you fight it is they may give it to nobody, since you clearly didn't get the jackpot. I think you might have a good case in the civil courts to go after the money from her, if she doesn't voluntarily share it. In my opinion, splitting it 50-50 would be the fair thing.
Quote: CrystalMathI am interested in this one. In my past, I have been involved in analyzing several machine malfunctions. One time, about 8 or 10 years ago, I investigated one and I found that the slot manufacturer was at fault and knew about the problem - they just hadn't nailed down the cause. I think the player was rightfully due $4 million, but she didn't know better. Also, in the casino reports, statements show that the casino refused to let her take photos of the machine. She requested the casino to take a picture for their wall of jackpot winners as well; the casino did, but in their statements, they said that the casino was lucky that the photo was out of focus. I think it is horrible when people get this kind of treatment.
Of course, there are other issues that are simply a malfunction. When the graphics go haywire and the machine pops up a jackpot of 42 million for no apparent reason, then the reasonable player knows it is a malfunction. Of course, the adrenaline from seeing the 42 million plastered on the screen will throw all logic out the window.
I'd like to ask him something along the lines of what constitutes a "malfunction." I think he will say in Nevada there are no clear guidelines, and each case it taken on its own merits. Likewise, I don't treat every "malfunction" case the same. As a general rule of thumb, I think if a casino says that what looks like a clear jackpot is a "malfunction" is just not right. However, if 42 million just appears on the credit meter out of nowhere, that would be a malfunction. I know there is a lot of space in between those extremes.
I know of another Vegas attorney, Nick Mastrangelo, who likes these cases. We may have him on in the future. Meanwhile, it is a worthy topic for Nersesian.
Quote: WizardI'd like to ask him something along the lines of what constitutes a "malfunction."
I agree. In the case I was talking about, the manufacturer knew of the problem, but continued to let faulty software run in the field. Also, the player did hit the top award, but the dispute was over the amount that should have been awarded.
I personally don't think that this was a malfunction - the slot machine was doing exactly as it was programmed to do, but it didn't match what the manufacturer intended it to do. There is no way the casino staff would have known in this case, and it was prudent for them to suspect a malfunction.
Quote: CrystalMathI agree. In the case I was talking about, the manufacturer knew of the problem, but continued to let faulty software run in the field. Also, the player did hit the top award, but the dispute was over the amount that should have been awarded.
I personally don't think that this was a malfunction - the slot machine was doing exactly as it was programmed to do, but it didn't match what the manufacturer intended it to do. There is no way the casino staff would have known in this case, and it was prudent for them to suspect a malfunction.
One could make the case there is no such thing as a computer malfunction, since they are just following the orders of the programmer. Except in the case of something like the computer catching on fire, which happened to me.
My position is you have to look at what the machine was supposed to do, what is claimed in the rules, and did the maker previously know about the problem. Again, I would have to take each case on its own merits. I also think that an award should not necessarily be all or nothing. On the original People's Court Judge Wapner would sometimes divide fault, and assign damages in proportion to the share of the blame. This seems very reasonable and fair to me. I never see any other other TV judges do this.
Assuming the general facts were the same in all three incidents, would there be a difference in the successful prosecution / settlement outcomes if I was "backroomed" by:
1) a tribal casino (e.g., Avi)
2) a single owner (e.g., El Cortez)
3) a corporate owner
In my opinion, you are less likely to be backroomed in a single-owner place like the El Cortez.
Quote: AyecarumbaI didn't listen to the previous broadcasts, nor read the book, so forgive me if this has already been covered.
Assuming the general facts were the same in all three incidents, would there be a difference in the successful prosecution / settlement outcomes if I was "backroomed" by:
1) a tribal casino (e.g., Avi)
2) a single owner (e.g., El Cortez)
3) a corporate owner
Tribal casinos have tribal police, tribal lawyers, tribal judges, ... but there is no American Consulate for you to call upon.
Gambling there is bad enough. Getting injured there can be worse. Whether its a back room injury or a front lobby slip and fall.
Some think Single Owner places are more sensitive to adverse publicity but in reality I think they just tend to hire better employees.
Corporate owners tend to hire the worst jerks and have the most problems. They are also the ones with the lawyers already on their payroll and can fight till the cows come home and then appeal. The first thing their lawyers do is try to get punitive damages off the board, then they drag their feet.
How confident should APs be that other states will follow NV legal precedent when confronted with a case that is new to (i.e., would set a precedent for) the non-NV state that it happened in? I'm specifically referring to non-tribal, State-run casinos in states other than NV or NJ. Players have traditionally felt safe employing legitimate skilled advantage play techniques outside of the state of Nevada, assuming that prior Nevada Supreme Court decisions (and sheer logic) would protect them in states that don't have formal rulings on such issues. Some players have recently had very bad experiences outside of Nevada that might make them think twice before assuming that states will look to Nevada for legal precedent. How worried should APs be when playing in a state that doesn't have formal rulings on advantage play?
trial again. It never fails to really get me going.
If you read what those witnesses for the defense
were really saying, think about it and analyze it,
its scary. Especially Asher at the very end. The
casinos and the Gaming Commission really think
they're above the law. Whats really changed since
the days when Benny Binion had an 'understanding'
(bought and paid for) with the Vegas cop's, that
whoever did a crime in his casino would be dealt
with within the casino and the police need never
get involved.
Asher was head of security for Gaming for 6 years
and he actually said they had a right to keep Grosjean
there and get info from him, under duress, because
they read his book and knew all about him. Even
though what he does isn't illegal. His constitutional
rights don't exist in the casino. The scary part is, the
casino people really believe this. This is why we have
arguments on this forum with some casino workers
who still believe secret rules are enforceable.
I'd love to ask Nersesian how he got away with bringing
up the Nazi Nuremberg Defense in the trial. It was a
brilliant move, any time you can link a defendant to
Nazi's and Hitler in the juries mind, it tends to stay
there. But its too controversial for a little radio show,
I'm sure.
Like the wizard, and many professional and/or serious players based in Vegas, Mr N is the first number programmed into my phone. I can dial one handed while the phone is in my pocket if I have too, but I haven't had to yet. I have never been back roomed, but did have one incident where I was being lead off the floor, by a suit and security guy that were obviously trying to intimidate me. On the way, I calmly insisted that I wanted to call my lawyer and dropped his name. After 2 more steps the suit stopped, turned and said "go on, get out of here and don't come back". I never ran so fast in all my life. And I think I had to purchase some new underwear, but never the less, I credit Mr N will avoiding my first back-rooming and he doesn't even know it.
Quote: kewljI would be interested to know if Mr N, plays on 'our' side of the table?
Good suggestion. The list of questions is already growing long, and that is just mine. Bob Dancer will write his own half.
However, I recall asking Mr N at the blackjack ball if he was also a player and he replied "no." This was a few years ago, so take that with a grain of salt.
Does she have a case?
Quote: March 18, 2011|By Matt Assad, OF THE MORNING CALLAt Pennsylvania casinos, no finders keepers
Pocketing found cash or playing another's credits may land you in the clink....
article
Quote: pacomartinHypothetical situation where a guy and a girl are drunk in a casino. They are goofing off, flirting and taking turns pulling each other's slot handles. In clear view of the cameras, he goes off to the rest room, and she starts playing his machine. She hits for $100 grand, and he comes back and says he never told her to play his machine and the money is his. She says that he told her to go ahead and play his money. When they both sober up they decide they don't know each other, the budding drunken relationship is now hatred and they refuse to split the money.
Does she have a case?
Sounds like the plot of What Happens In Vegas with Ashton Kutcher and Cameron Diaz. Throw in a drunk wedding too though...
Quote: AcesAndEightsSounds like the plot of What Happens In Vegas with Ashton Kutcher and Cameron Diaz. Throw in a drunk wedding too though...
Maybe I'll have to see that movie after all.
I'm afraid that we didn't have time to get to most of our questions. However, there are plenty for next time. Here is a link to the show.
I still have trouble with the issue of finders keepers.
Say your wife throws out an old suit that you had hidden 10k in. She puts in in a trash can that is still on your property,then a bum comes by and digs through your trash, the money is now his?
How is this different than the store. If the trash is on private property what right do people have to go through it.
Is there any difference between someone going thru the trash while it's on your property, or going thru it once it gets to the dump? That's the point of trash. It's abandoned. As long as the person picking thru the trash doesn't make a mess of it, there's no reason that a garbage picker should be stopped.
On the other hand, the part in that show about the lottery ticket was different for a different reason. The owner of the ticket had checked it in the store, using a bar code scanner. The scanner did not report the ticket as a winner so the owner discarded it.
The part of the story that you might have missed was that the scanner did NOT say it was a loser. Nor did the store owner do anything to alert the ticket owner that there might be a problem with the scanner.
For those reasons, the judge ruled that the ticket owner discarded the ticket based upon false information.
Yes I think there is a difference.If the trash is on my property then people should not be trespassing,If the trash is out on the sidewalk then it`s fair game,but if they have to walk on your land or in your yard/driveway I think that should not be legal.
as to the scanner not working I have to agree with you,and in that case the original owner should get the ticket back.
Quote: HunterhillDJ
Yes I think there is a difference.If the trash is on my property then people should not be trespassing,If the trash is out on the sidewalk then it`s fair game,but if they have to walk on your land or in your yard/driveway I think that should not be legal.
as to the scanner not working I have to agree with you,and in that case the original owner should get the ticket back.
I think the original owner has a case against the store or the lottery, but she has no right to the ticket. As soon as she threw it away, it was anyone's property. In fact, if the second owner had never retrieved it from the trash can, then nobody would have ever known and the original owner would have gone on her way without a second thought.
If I donate a painting to Goodwill because I think it is garbage, and then I see on the news that someone had donated a Picasso that was covered by my cruddy painting that i donated, can I claim that it is mine because I was ignorant and I would have not given it away otherwise?
It's too bad for her that she threw it away.
That said, my opinion is that the finder should be allowed to keep the money. As I understand it, the store allowed people to rummage through the trash for winning tickets. However, I do think that the original purchaser of the ticket has a valid claim against the lottery itself and/or whoever made the machine that incorrectly said the ticket was a loser.
