PartTime AP prospects

Quote: stooge

I appreciate all the discussion here of what is and isn't AP/illegal/cheating. Ultimately it'll be up to my discretion of what crosses the line and doesn't, and if I'm on the wrong side of that determination, I might face consequences. That's all understood.

Maybe my OP suggested that I was going to employ only a single strategy. Let's call it the "darkoz strategy". But that is just the first thing that came to my mind because it seems to be the most reliable, once the ball is rolling. I take it that other opportunities, such as holecarding, etc. are more lucrative when they exist, but such opportunities don't arise as often or as regularly. Maybe I'm wrong about this too.

"The Darkoz Strategy"

Hey, I like that!

Quote: darkoz

"The Darkoz Strategy"

Hey, I like that!

The Darkoz Methodology.

Quote: stooge

I appreciate all the discussion here of what is and isn't AP/illegal/cheating. Ultimately it'll be up to my discretion of what crosses the line and doesn't, and if I'm on the wrong side of that determination, I might face consequences. That's all understood.

Maybe my OP suggested that I was going to employ only a single strategy. Let's call it the "darkoz strategy". But that is just the first thing that came to my mind because it seems to be the most reliable, once the ball is rolling. I take it that other opportunities, such as holecarding, etc. are more lucrative when they exist, but such opportunities don't arise as often or as regularly. Maybe I'm wrong about this too.

Hi Stooge. You started this thread. I forgot all about you.

Quote: bobbartop

Hi Stooge. You started this thread. I forgot all about you.

Gee Thanks!

Quote: stooge

Gee Thanks!

Yeah welcome back.

We get passionate about our AP beliefs on here.

Just word of warning. Stay away from the political threads. The back and forth between Bob and me is nothing compared to those

Quote: darkoz

Yeah welcome back.

We get passionate about our AP beliefs on here.

Just word of warning. Stay away from the political threads. The back and forth between Bob and me is nothing compared to those

Those threads are completely different. Here, at least, I'm open to compromise and learning something. But in the political threads, I know everything already and am never wrong. See? Big difference.

Quote: bobbartop

Those threads are completely different. Here, at least, I'm open to compromise and learning something. But in the political threads, I know everything already and am never wrong. See? Big difference.

As the famous line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail goes:

"Run away, run away."

Quote: FCBLComish

To the best of my knowledge, Casino lines of credit do not affect your credit score. When we make decisions on credit we look at a few factors:

1) Level of play
2) Average bank balance of whatever account you give us
3) Whether or not you have ever defaulted on markers from another casino
4) Total available lines of casino credit.

There is a service that everyone subscribes to that has this information. I don't believe credit score is any part of the equation.

When you open a casino line of credit, we basically have you sign a check for whatever amount you want to use (within your limit) and then you can either pay it back within the agreed upon time limit (typically 30 days) or we just deposit the check.

That's more than the first time that you used the pronoun "we". Did you ever work in the casino somewhere in this department. I was a dealer but never went beyond that.

I assume he (meaning FCBLComish) didn't work in the casino credit department.

All casinos pull consumer credit in determining whether to issue credit, and some even run it yearly (soft pull) to make sure that you remain credit worthy. Most will do a hard pull of your credit when you first apply, but all will pull your credit whether hard or soft pull:
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/mdawg/blog/#post1785
If you read my blog, yes casinos also use an additional sort of credit bureau that revolves only around casino credit.
If you don't pay your markers off, and the matter ends up going to collection, or lawsuit, the resulting judgment will indeed affect your consumer credit, although these sorts of end results (collection, lawsuit, civil judgment) don't always happen. In Nevada, an unpaid market may also land your butt in jail, in which case bad credit would be the least of your problems.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's not true.

Stations dont comp winners. I tried and was told so.

Quote: speedycrap

Stations dont comp winners. I tried and was told so.

So if somome puts millions of coin in and they happen to hit megabucks they won't comp them?

I wont argue the fact that they are more likely to comp losers but given enough play I doubt they are going to lose a good customer just because they happen to be winning. If they have pegged them as an Advantage player, I have no doubt they might not comp them anything.

Stations owns The Palms, where I recently established a new credit line and plan to play before the end of the year. I don't plan on losing, so they better comp! I can't imagine a casino that doesn't comp based on theoretical loss, win or lose.

I did notice this, from 2012

Quote: SONBP2

I was at Santa Fe last night (again) and we asked about getting a comp for the steak house. Now we rarely asks for comps, but we do play enough to earn them. So we asked for $200 and they told us they could only comp 20% of our losses for the last 60 days. However, for the last 60 days we were actually up about $500 and therefore we were not entitled to any comps based on our table game play. I replied, you see us here 3 to 5 times per week and you know that we rarely ask for comps. The pit boss and host said it didn't matter, they can only base our comps on our last 60 days of play. She then made some comment about how casinos don't let you win more win you are already winning.

I just turned my back and walked away. Maybe I am wrong, but I just don't believe this is how comps are calculated, it may be factor, but not the deciding factor for regular players like us.

Any opinions?

but this seems to be saying more that Stations refused to comp based on play more than 60 days old, versus solely based on losses.

Getting back to "AP" play - how does one play slots, which is a straight loser, and earn enough comps to justify the loss? Moreover, how would such comps translate into cash, let alone cash that would compensate for the actual loss?

Put another way, I generally win, at least, I have been winning every trip since returning to gambling in 2018 (after a decade or so hiatus) - we have been COMP'ed a LOT - yet, none of these comps translate to cash in my pocket. The only cash in my pocket is the cash I took off the table games.

So, howdy doody it?

Okay this link is way better than my last one as its recent and shows (apparently) how they calculate comps (from borgata in NJ)

https://travelzork.com/gambling-casino-theo-adt/

Quote: DeMango

I guess somebody dropped the “N Bomb”. That should end the argument.

I hope this was sarcasm, because it should be. This is no blight on Bob hes great at what he does. But, some people seem to toss around Bob's name as if it some kind of magic bullet. Oftentimes people misinterpret what Bob says, or they only hear the parts they want to hear and disregard what he said before and after. Oftentimes, Bob might be talking in general terms for simplicity, yet every case and situation is diffrent.

One of our favorite posters on another forum proclaimed he has Bob on speed dial as if he knows him personally and they are best buds, as If he somehow had some extra special protection from the casinos. I wonder if he has even ever meet him?

I have hear people say they are going to call Bob over some of the dumbest thing I have heard. That leaves me laughing to myself knowing Bob is not going to be remotely interested. I normally don't comment, thats because theres the small chance I'm wrong because I know just one small thing can make a big difference.

Quote: darkoz

I know I personally hate using that argument but that is a legal stance used by attorneys including Nersessian. Just throwing that out there

Did Bob tell you this personally? Please explain exactly what he said, please explain what states he was talking about.

I don't think it's illegal myself and I say go for it, I 100% approve, but it's meaningless what I say and think. It's meaningless even if an attorney say's its not illegal. Its not something cut and dry, it seems to dance around in the grey near the line. It only matters what a prosecutor, Judge and jury thinks. Let's not forget about the civil courts either. Each state will have diffrent laws regarding this stuff. It won't be very fun if one has to spend money all the time defending themselves. Given the amount of cards you have indicated, given the fact that you and your family have dealt with some more that sketchy people, theres no way you can be close to certain you are all good. theres good chance something goes very wrong one time where the charges could stick. I'm not going to say it here since I don't want to give anyone any ideas, but if I wanted to make the charges stick I would know exactly what route to pursue. Being all overconfident and cocky publicly like you are, I think is a disservice to somome like the OP.

FYI I just talked to Bob, I didn't like what he had to say about this type of stuff outside NV. Your overconfidence and cockiness is being significantly overplayed.

Do I have your permission to print out and show Bob your post(s) and get his reaction to it?

Quote: stooge

To address some of these questions here. As mentioned in the OP, I do have a job, so I don't plan to be flying all over the country on a moment's notice. I do have the time to operate on a relatively part-time basis, and if that's a major hindrance I need to know.

Another limitation (I presume) is that I am working with a relatively limited network at this point in time, but that's something that I'll continually work on and which hopefully would build over time.

I'm fully aware that there's no free lunch and that this isn't a path to unlimited and easy financial rewards. Whatever rewards there are will come with work, and I'm interested to do that work. What I'm primarily asking for is: what are the key things I should know as I go down this path? Any pitfalls to avoid? Easy things I can avoid spending time on or easy things to look for to get me started? Really appreciate the insights.

Again, I think we need to know what area you are from before anyone can help you with any solid advice. Being a part time AP in Las Vegas VS any other places would be significantly diffrent, and of course all the other places compared to each other would be diffrent as well. It might also help knowing what kinda bankroll you are talking about. You seemed indicated you were flush however you also seemed to indicate you an open scheduled with your job.

From my experience I dont know too many people that are successful when they suddenly jump right in to AP with a big bankroll or not, especially trying learn and do it on their own.

Quote: AxelWolf

I hope this was sarcasm, because it should be. This is no blight on Bob hes great at what he does. But, some people seem to toss around Bob's name as if it some kind of magic bullet. Oftentimes people misinterpret what Bob says, or they only hear the parts they want to hear and disregard what he said before and after. Oftentimes, Bob might be talking in general terms for simplicity, yet every case and situation is diffrent.

One of our favorite posters on another forum proclaimed he has Bob on speed dial as if he knows him personally and they are best buds, as If he somehow had some extra special protection from the casinos. I wonder if he has even ever meet him?

I have hear people say they are going to call Bob over some of the dumbest thing I have heard. That leaves me laughing to myself knowing Bob is not going to be remotely interested. I normally don't comment, thats because theres the small chance I'm wrong because I know just one small thing can make a big difference.

Did Bob tell you this personally? Please explain exactly what he said, please explain what states he was talking about.

I don't think it's illegal myself and I say go for it, I 100% approve, but it's meaningless what I say and think. It's meaningless even if an attorney say's its not illegal. Its not something cut and dry, it seems to dance around in the grey near the line. It only matters what a prosecutor, Judge and jury thinks. Let's not forget about the civil courts either. Each state will have diffrent laws regarding this stuff. It won't be very fun if one has to spend money all the time defending themselves. Given the amount of cards you have indicated, given the fact that you and your family have dealt with some more that sketchy people, theres no way you can be close to certain you are all good. theres good chance something goes very wrong one time where the charges could stick. I'm not going to say it here since I don't want to give anyone any ideas, but if I wanted to make the charges stick I would know exactly what route to pursue. Being all overconfident and cocky publicly like you are, I think is a disservice to somome like the OP.

FYI I just talked to Bob, I didn't like what he had to say about this type of stuff outside NV. Your overconfidence and cockiness is being significantly overplayed.

Do I have your permission to print out and show Bob your post(s) and get his reaction to it?


Again, I think we need to know what area you are from before anyone can help you with any solid advice. Being a part time AP in Las Vegas VS any other places would be significantly diffrent, and of course all the other places compared to each other would be diffrent as well. It might also help knowing what kinda bankroll you are talking about. You seemed indicated you were flush however you also seemed to indicate you an open scheduled with your job.

From my experience I dont know too many people that are successful when they suddenly jump right in to AP with a big bankroll or not, especially trying learn and do it on their own.

You can absolutely show it to Bob. He mentioned that argument to me in a discussion over the phone about my case.

When it comes to my use of other players cards there has NEVER been a single charge against me.

You couldn't make your charges stick to me if they pure peanut butter and I was bread.

Or are you suggesting you would violate the law by trumping up a charge?

The law is the law. When it comes to what I do its probably far beyond anything you imagine. So I understand you ignorance of the law.

Trust me if the NJ state police AND the Pennsylvania state police AND the NY state police could not find one charge to lob at me, you cant either.

As for the recent court case against me that was for an accusation of something I did not do and when the evidence finally came out...

All charges dropped and all charges expunged from my record.

Truthfully I am probably the most straight shooter on this forum. I make up no BS unlike many other posters here when it comes to my AP and life events

Here is the relevant statutes from Pennsylvania regarding use of other people players cards.

I will cut n paste a few others as well

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/HTM/18/00.041.006.000..HTM

The relevant parts of the statute are below



§ 4106.  Access device fraud.

(a)  Offense defined.--A person commits an offense if he:

(1)  uses an access device to obtain or in an attempt to obtain property or services with knowledge that:

(i)  the access device is counterfeit, altered or incomplete;

BELOW IS IMPORTANT PART

(ii)  the access device was issued to another person who has not authorized its use;

CLEARLY STATES IF ACCESS DEVICE WAS USED WITHOUT PERMISSION. ERGO WITH PERMISSION IS NO CRIME. AS IN LOANING YOUR DAUGHTER YOUR CREDIT CARD IS NOT A CRIME

(iii)  the access device has been revoked or canceled; or

(iv)  for any other reason his use of the access device is unauthorized by the issuer or the device holder; or



(d)  Definitions.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

CLEARLY FROM THE BELOW DEFINITION A CASINO PLAYERS CARD IS CONSIDERED AN ACCESS DEVICE AND PURSUANT TO ANY OF THIS APPLICATION OF LAW.

"Access device."  Any card, including, but not limited to, a credit card, debit card and automated teller machine card, plate, code, account number, personal identification number or other means of account access that can be used alone or in conjunction with another access device to obtain money, goods, services or anything else of value or that can be used to transfer funds.


"Device holder."  The person or organization named on the access device to whom or for whose benefit the access device is issued by an issuer.

THATS FROM THE WEBSITE SO...

Its codified into the law in PA and I can find similar laws in almost every state. Its not for a judge or jury to decide. Use of another players card with permission is legal a s decided by the state lawmakers

Next I will look up Massachusetts

Not sure why anyone would keep mentioning the law when it comes to things like card counting and using someone else's casino player card / account. There might be laws against these and there might not, depending on the state, and circumstances. I could see one universal manner in which using someone else's player card / identity might be illegal - if someone were using someone else's (tax) identity to channel winnings.

One way that they could try to put a stop to this use of someone else's player card, is by having casino rules that declare any winnings or comps void if received via someone else's player card. I imagine there are such rules at some casinos, maybe all of them, I haven't checked.

As well, a casino reserves the right to 86 someone for any reason, and obviously using someone else's player card would be something they would want to stop. Once 86'ed, if you return, then that might violate trespass laws that might be on the government statutes, and for that, you could be arrested.

And still no one has explained how it is advantageous to play a loser game like slots, whether for one person or ten. I assume there are some short term promotions that would be beneficial on a new account, but over time I just can't see any benefit to playing slots.

My local grocery store says they will no longer give out shopper's club cards, and people should enter their cell phone number on the PIN pad or swipe their phone to bring up their account for shopping discounts. Seems I'm gonna need smart burner phones in the future.

Still plenty of options here in Florida to take hearing tests for $50 VISA gift cards. You obviously have to be able to avoid hard sells but it’s easy money if you are willing to check your dignity at the door.

Quote: MDawg

Not sure why anyone would keep mentioning the law when it comes to things like card counting and using someone else's casino player card / account. There might be laws against these and there might not, depending on the state, and circumstances. I could see one universal manner in which using someone else's player card / identity might be illegal - if someone were using someone else's (tax) identity to channel winnings.

There aren't. I have done the research. Everyone else on here seems intent on guessing.

As to channelling tax winnings, when a player wins, the w2g goes to the person pushing the button, not the players card inserted.

Sorry, that tax idea makes no sense. The person whose butt is in the seat pays the taxes no difference regardless of whose card is used or not used.

Quote: MDawg

One way that they could try to put a stop to this use of someone else's player card, is by having casino rules that declare any winnings or comps void if received via someone else's player card. I imagine there are such rules at some casinos, maybe all of them, I haven't checked.

There are laws against that. You are suggesting casinos withhold money won on another persons card? That would be the casino committing theft similar to keeping someone chips.

I have had at least one casino attempt that. I say attempt. I summoned gaming enforcement which FORCED the casino to pay and not violate the law

Besides, what if someone sat down and didn't realize another person left their card in the machine. People play drunk and dont notice they left it in sometimes. A casino should have a free hand to confiscate jackpots in situations like that?

They will void comps however. They already have that right.

Quote: MDawg

As well, a casino reserves the right to 86 someone for any reason, and obviously using someone else's player card would be something they would want to stop. Once 86'ed, if you return, then that might violate trespass laws that might be on the government statutes, and for that, you could be arrested.

Yes, this is correct. Just as card counters face being 86'd so do I. That is part of the AP game.

Quote: MDawg

And still no one has explained how it is advantageous to play a loser game like slots, whether for one person or ten. I assume there are some short term promotions that would be beneficial on a new account, but over time I just can't see any benefit to playing slots.

No one wants to explain it because it is a good lucrative play. But legal. So no one is gonna divulge it here. Thats why some people are trying their hardest to claim it doesnt even exist

Only question is why you engage people that tell you it is impossible?

Probably benefits you to continue to tell them they are right, it’s impossible or ignore them.

AP them all, write the book and F everyone.

My uneducated opinion has always thought that was your goal.

Quote: Boz

Only question is why you engage people that tell you it is impossible?

Probably benefits you to continue to tell them they are right, it’s impossible or ignore them.

AP them all, write the book and F everyone.

My uneducated opinion has always thought that was your goal.

Yeah, I guess.

Its sort of bragging I admit.

My failure as a human being. Hate being called wrong when I know I am not.

Sigh, catch 22

Just got done chatting with a friend who was a slot manager at sands Bethlehem and he said it didn’t matter who’s card was in the machine whoever pushed the button wins even if the free play was someone else’s and a jackpot was hit that it didn’t matter whatsoever all they care about is if you are paying taxes and if you were the one to hit the button to pay you.

Quote: bobbartop

The hell y'say. Really?

I can cut and paste my claim from any of numerous casino websites. Can you cut and paste just ONE rule forbidding "counting cards"? Just one? If you can, I will make a post stating that Bob Bartop is a big dope. A big fat dope.

bobbartop,

I'm not trying to get in the middle of your disagreement with darkoz, but below is a post I made on 1/1/2008 over at bj21's Green Chip page at the following URL:

https://bj21.com/boards/green-chip-forums/sub_boards/green-chip-general/topics/card-counting-on-carnival-cruise-lines-is-a-bozo-no-no

****************************************************************
Card Counting on Carnival Cruise Lines is a Bozo No-No!
My Fellow GCer's:

I recently cruised on a Carnival Cruise Lines ship. Outside their casino was posted a sign that contained the following excerpt, ironically immediately beneath a large "GOOD LUCK":

Card counting and/or the use of any mechanical/electrical or any other type of device to assist players in the gaming activity conducted in this casino is strictly prohibited. Violators will be subject to a forfeiture of all winnings and to confiscation of any prohibited devices.

To ensure this proscription, they used CSM's on all of their BJ games! However, their pseudo-BJ games were dealt from shoes.

Imagine the possibilities for abuse this allows... any time the casino wants to shaft a winning player, all the casino needs to do is accuse the winner of "card counting", then refuse to cash his chips. How does one go about "proving" he WASN'T counting cards?

At least they didn't mention "walking the plank"!

Dog Hand
****************************************************************

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Quote: DogHand

bobbartop,

I'm not trying to get in the middle of your disagreement with darkoz, but below is a post I made on 1/1/2008 over at bj21's Green Chip page at the following URL:

https://bj21.com/boards/green-chip-forums/sub_boards/green-chip-general/topics/card-counting-on-carnival-cruise-lines-is-a-bozo-no-no

****************************************************************
Card Counting on Carnival Cruise Lines is a Bozo No-No!
My Fellow GCer's:

I recently cruised on a Carnival Cruise Lines ship. Outside their casino was posted a sign that contained the following excerpt, ironically immediately beneath a large "GOOD LUCK":

Card counting and/or the use of any mechanical/electrical or any other type of device to assist players in the gaming activity conducted in this casino is strictly prohibited. Violators will be subject to a forfeiture of all winnings and to confiscation of any prohibited devices.

To ensure this proscription, they used CSM's on all of their BJ games! However, their pseudo-BJ games were dealt from shoes.

Imagine the possibilities for abuse this allows... any time the casino wants to shaft a winning player, all the casino needs to do is accuse the winner of "card counting", then refuse to cash his chips. How does one go about "proving" he WASN'T counting cards?

At least they didn't mention "walking the plank"!

Dog Hand
****************************************************************

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Darkoz and I are not arguing, we're just talking. But thank you for this post. What else can I say but Carnival sucks. An enlightening post, thanks again.

Quote: bobbartop

Quote: DogHand

bobbartop,

I'm not trying to get in the middle of your disagreement with darkoz, but below is a post I made on 1/1/2008 over at bj21's Green Chip page at the following URL:

https://bj21.com/boards/green-chip-forums/sub_boards/green-chip-general/topics/card-counting-on-carnival-cruise-lines-is-a-bozo-no-no

****************************************************************
Card Counting on Carnival Cruise Lines is a Bozo No-No!
My Fellow GCer's:

I recently cruised on a Carnival Cruise Lines ship. Outside their casino was posted a sign that contained the following excerpt, ironically immediately beneath a large "GOOD LUCK":

Card counting and/or the use of any mechanical/electrical or any other type of device to assist players in the gaming activity conducted in this casino is strictly prohibited. Violators will be subject to a forfeiture of all winnings and to confiscation of any prohibited devices.

To ensure this proscription, they used CSM's on all of their BJ games! However, their pseudo-BJ games were dealt from shoes.

Imagine the possibilities for abuse this allows... any time the casino wants to shaft a winning player, all the casino needs to do is accuse the winner of "card counting", then refuse to cash his chips. How does one go about "proving" he WASN'T counting cards?

At least they didn't mention "walking the plank"!

Dog Hand
****************************************************************

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Darkoz and I are not arguing, we're just talking. But thank you for this post. What else can I say but Carnival sucks. An enlightening post, thanks again.

Yeah Bobbartop and I are civilly disageeing and making our points clear.

We understand each other

So Carnival is going to potentially confiscate the mind of a card counter. I guess International Waters opens up all kinds of possibilities.

Quote: darkoz

Yeah Bobbartop and I are civilly disageeing and making our points clear.

We understand each other

I know I'm digressing and hijacking a thread, but have you seen the news about Eldorado Resorts buying Caesar's for $17 billion? I just heard about it maybe an hour ago. I'm surprised no one has posted yet. This is bigger news than Iran. Holy crap, it will be the biggest gaming company in the universe.

Quote: MaxPen

So Carnival is going to potentially confiscate the mind of a card counter. I guess International Waters opens up all kinds of possibilities.

Yeah, is that the craziest thing or what? They're using CSM, so why not just stfu about the rest. I wasn't going to go on a cruise anyway, I'm afraid of sharks, but screw them anyway, I ain't going especially on Carnival. Jerks.

Hey everybody, let's all take a Carnival cruise to the Dominican Republic. I hear it's nice this time of year.

Quote: bobbartop

Hey everybody, let's all take a Carnival cruise to the Dominican Republic. I hear it's nice this time of year.

Swimming with sharks sounds more appealing.

Good afternoon Mr. Putin)

Quote: Lovecomps

2). If you really want to get thier best comps, do you want to take multiple hits on your credit score by asking for a line of credit in each casino?

I have never noticed a query on my credit report from a casino. Usually they just want to talk to someone at your bank to get your balance information. Casinos don't usually extend credit, what they do is draft a check against your bank account for the amount.

It is not uncommon for the casino to ask your bank for the average monthly balance in your accounts over the last six months. They will then set your credit limit based on that number.

Small credit is handled by counter checks but when you get into five and six figure markers, I'd think it has to be more than ones checking balance.

Quote: billryan

Small credit is handled by counter checks but when you get into five and six figure markers, I'd think it has to be more than ones checking balance.

It's not, as far as I know. One other thing is, once you've been verified you can obtain the same lines of credit with different casino operators that use the same verification system.

This is what keeps that office downtown so busy. 😀

If you want to just cash checks, they will just do whatever right there at the counter and cash it. Maybe run ChexSystems or whatever the typical merchant does (or used to do, since checks are becoming increasingly rare at point of sale) to validate you (make sure you have no bounced check history on your driver's license number) and your bank account (check balance). I am sure this is done automated and again, via something like ChexSystems.

I do believe some casinos offer or used to offer a type of account that gave you the ability to cash checks regularly, and I don't know what sort of screens they would run to create such an account.

But I would agree that they don't run credit just to cash a check - to run credit they need to get your signed authorization on a disclosure that they will be running credit.

But DRich, you are mistaken if you think that casinos do not run your personal credit when deciding to issue you a credit line. A casino credit line (ability to sign markers) is different from mere check cashing. And credit lines are alive and well I have several at several casinos all mid to high five figures, but even when I got my first one many years ago mid to high four figures still they ran credit and all that.

You may review my blog for details
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/mdawg/blog/#post1785
even where you might think they are not running credit to issue a credit line - and most will run a hard pull which will appear right on your Experian for the world to see for two years, the ones you might think are not running credit are still doing a soft pull which you would see if you got a copy of your credit profile and scrolled down to the "inquiries seen only by you" area.

Nowadays most casinos in Nevada use VisualLimits LLC (aka NCC Reports) in deciding whether to issue you a credit line, and NCC runs your credit via Experian, but if the casino is using some other outfit, then the consumer credit might be run via Trans Union or Equifax.

The authorization to run your consumer credit will be right there in the casino credit line application you submit/sign.

All of this makes sense, as besides checking your casino history and credit worthiness via NCC, the casinos also want to make sure you're not a real world deadbeat via your consumer credit.

Quote: MDawg

If you want to just cash checks, they will just do whatever right there at the counter and cash it. Maybe run ChexSystems or whatever the typical merchant does (or used to do, since checks are becoming increasingly rare at point of sale) to validate you (make sure you have no bounced check history on your driver's license number) and your bank account (check balance). I am sure this is done automated and again, via something like ChexSystems.

I do believe some casinos offer or used to offer a type of account that gave you the ability to cash checks regularly, and I don't know what sort of screens they would run to create such an account.

But I would agree that they don't run credit just to cash a check - to run credit they need to get your signed authorization on a disclosure that they will be running credit.

But DRich, you are mistaken if you think that casinos do not run your personal credit when deciding to issue you a credit line. A casino credit line (ability to sign markers) is different from mere check cashing.

You may review my blog for details
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/mdawg/blog/#post1785
even where you might think they are not running credit to issue a credit line - and most will run a hard pull which will appear right on your Experian for the world to see for two years, the ones you might think are not running credit are still doing a soft pull which you would see if you got a copy of your credit profile and scrolled down to the "inquiries seen only by you" area.

Nowadays most casinos in Nevada use VisualLimits LLC (aka NCC Reports) in deciding whether to issue you a credit line, and NCC runs your credit via Experian, but if the casino is using some other outfit, then the consumer credit might be run via Trans Union or Equifax.

The authorization to run your consumer credit will be right there in the casino credit line application you submit/sign.

All of this makes sense, as besides checking your casino history and credit worthiness via NCC, the casinos also want to make sure you're not a real world deadbeat via your consumer credit.

What you're describing would not be enforceable as check fraud in relation to "casino credit".

I would like to investigate this further as it sounds like a huge potential for a massive freeroll.

Okay you lost me there bringing up "check fraud" I might've missed some of this conversation or thread.

I'm just commenting on what the casino does before it issues a credit line. Really I am just summarizing it here, the nitty gritty is in my blog post. I'm less familiar with what the casino does as far as mere cashing of checks since I have never done that, but friends of mine who have cashed checks at the casino cage have done so with no prior history and no consumer credit checks were run on them for mere check cashing.

Not sure if this is relevant to what is being discussed but in Nevada unpaid casino markers are treated as NSF checks and may be prosecuted. That issue has been contested all the way to the NV Supreme Court with the casinos winning. There are some NV cases where the players have prevailed against the criminal "check NSF" charge by establishing that they did have the funds on deposit at the time the marker checks were signed, but did not by the time presented, but I believe that ever since those cases the NV casinos have moved to close these loopholes with additional verbiage on the markers to the effect of "you attest that you have and will have the funds on deposit now and when this check is presented" etc.

Quote: MDawg

One way that they could try to put a stop to this use of someone else's player card, is by having casino rules that declare any winnings or comps void if received via someone else's player card. I imagine there are such rules at some casinos, maybe all of them, I haven't checked.

Quote: darkoz

They will void comps however. They already have that right.

Also looking into the Terms of Service for all of these casinos, from the smaller two bit ones like Commerce Casino in L.A., to a giant like Caesar's Total Rewards, all have rules in place to try to prevent using someone else's player card, and to void any comps or promotions if being used by someone other than the person whose name is on the card.

Commerce Casino:
https://www.commercecasino.com/players-card-rules-and-regulations/
By participating in the PLAYER CARD Rewards Program (“Program”), participants agree to be bound by these rules and regulations.
The benefits of the Program are intended solely for the use of the person listed on the account (“Member”) and are non-transferable.
Management reserves the right to adjust account status due to computer error, machine malfunction, operator error, fraud or misuse of the PLAYERS CARD.
The Commerce Casino & Hotel reserves the right to deny anyone their application for membership or terminate anyone’s membership in the Program at any time in its sole discretion without recourse.
The Commerce Casino & Hotel, in its sole discretion, may terminate the Member’s membership if any Member fails to comply with the Program or the rules in any manner

Caesar's Total Rewards
https://www.caesars.com/total-rewards/total-rewards-rules-regs
By participating in the Caesars Rewards program (“Program”), participants agree to be bound by these rules and regulations.
The benefits of the Program are intended and solely for the use of the person listed on the account (“Member”).
A Member may not allow any other person to use his or her Caesars Rewards card or access his or her account. Caesars Rewards cards are non-transferable.
Management reserves the right to adjust account status due to computer error, machine malfunction, operator error, fraud or other misuse of the Caesars Rewards card.
All decisions regarding the interpretation of Program rules, eligibility, Tier Credit and Reward Credit accumulation, etc. lie solely with management whose decisions are final.
If any Member fails to comply with the Program or the rules of participating properties in any manner, including violations of these rules, misuse of the Caesars Rewards card, fraud, misrepresentation, improper conduct, violation of laws or any Member is or should be excluded from gaming at any participating property, all as determined by Caesars in its sole discretion, Caesars may terminate the Member’s membership in the Program.

What this means obviously is that not only comps, but any sort of promotions such as for new players, is intended and may be used only by the person whose name is on the card. Any winnings that derive from these promotions, would be at risk of being withheld by these terms of service.

NOW, if there is no benefit to using a player card, in that whatever comps or promotions derived from it may be withheld, then why use a player card at all? That is, if Darkov has figured out some way to win at a loser game like slots, which I doubt is the case - meaning, that he has not figured out a way to win at slots and that his use of the player cards and any promotions assigned to them is essential to his scheme.

I suspect that all he is doing is signing up people for new player cards and then draining the card of any free promotions that are available, and then moving on to the next donor until the next promotion appears on the card. He may be getting away with it, but his claiming that the casinos have no rules against this is naivete at its best. Whether there are government laws against it may just come back to the casino's ability to 86 anyone for any reason and then have arrested upon return if there is a corresponding trespass statute on the books, such as there is in Nevada (NRS 207.200).
[A]ny person who, under circumstances not amounting to a burglary:

(a) Goes upon the land or into any building of another with intent to vex or annoy the owner or occupant thereof, or to commit any unlawful act; or

(b) Willfully goes or remains upon any land or in any building after having been warned by the owner or occupant thereof not to trespass,

--> is guilty of a misdemeanor [in Nevada].

Under Pennsylvania law 18 Pa.C.S.A.§3503(b), a person commits the crime of defiant trespass if he or she comes onto or stays on your property after being told to stay away. You can tell a person to stay away from property that you either own or rent.

Under New Jersey criminal trespass law: Defiant trespassing: Defiant trespassing is referred to as a petty disorderly offense and carries penalties of up to 30 days in jail and a $500 fine.
The trespasser enters or remains in a place despite being notified from the owner not to trespass.

etc.

As far as trying to apply access device fraud / misuse of identity criminal statutes to the enterprise, I imagine you'd find one prosecutor who would decline to press charges, and another who might want to test the limits of the law, depending on how egregious and extensive the scheme was being played. Definitely not black and white.

But in any case, he's apparently playing a game you cannot win. To the utmost.

Quote: MDawg

Also looking into the Terms of Service for all of these casinos, from the smaller two bit ones like Commerce Casino in L.A., to a giant like Caesar's Total Rewards, all have rules in place to try to prevent using someone else's player card, and to void any comps or promotions if being used by someone other than the person whose name is on the card.

Commerce Casino:
https://www.commercecasino.com/players-card-rules-and-regulations/
By participating in the PLAYER CARD Rewards Program (“Program”), participants agree to be bound by these rules and regulations.
The benefits of the Program are intended solely for the use of the person listed on the account (“Member”) and are non-transferable.
Management reserves the right to adjust account status due to computer error, machine malfunction, operator error, fraud or misuse of the PLAYERS CARD.
The Commerce Casino & Hotel reserves the right to deny anyone their application for membership or terminate anyone’s membership in the Program at any time in its sole discretion without recourse.
The Commerce Casino & Hotel, in its sole discretion, may terminate the Member’s membership if any Member fails to comply with the Program or the rules in any manner

Caesar's Total Rewards
https://www.caesars.com/total-rewards/total-rewards-rules-regs
By participating in the Caesars Rewards program (“Program”), participants agree to be bound by these rules and regulations.
The benefits of the Program are intended and solely for the use of the person listed on the account (“Member”).
A Member may not allow any other person to use his or her Caesars Rewards card or access his or her account. Caesars Rewards cards are non-transferable.
Management reserves the right to adjust account status due to computer error, machine malfunction, operator error, fraud or other misuse of the Caesars Rewards card.
All decisions regarding the interpretation of Program rules, eligibility, Tier Credit and Reward Credit accumulation, etc. lie solely with management whose decisions are final.
If any Member fails to comply with the Program or the rules of participating properties in any manner, including violations of these rules, misuse of the Caesars Rewards card, fraud, misrepresentation, improper conduct, violation of laws or any Member is or should be excluded from gaming at any participating property, all as determined by Caesars in its sole discretion, Caesars may terminate the Member’s membership in the Program.

What this means obviously is that not only comps, but any sort of promotions such as for new players, is intended and may be used only by the person whose name is on the card. Any winnings that derive from these promotions, would be at risk of being withheld by these terms of service.

NOW, if there is no benefit to using a player card, in that whatever comps or promotions derived from it may be withheld, then why use a player card at all? That is, if Darkov has figured out some way to win at a loser game like slots, which I doubt is the case - meaning, that he has not figured out a way to win at slots and that his use of the player cards and any promotions assigned to them is essential to his scheme.

I suspect that all he is doing is signing up people for new player cards and then draining the card of any free promotions that are available, and then moving on to the next donor until the next promotion appears on the card. He may be getting away with it, but his claiming that the casinos have no rules against this is naivete at its best. Whether there are government laws against it may just come back to the casino's ability to 86 anyone for any reason and then have arrested upon return if there is a corresponding trespass statute on the books, such as there is in Nevada (NRS 207.200).
[A]ny person who, under circumstances not amounting to a burglary:

(a) Goes upon the land or into any building of another with intent to vex or annoy the owner or occupant thereof, or to commit any unlawful act; or

(b) Willfully goes or remains upon any land or in any building after having been warned by the owner or occupant thereof not to trespass,

--> is guilty of a misdemeanor [in Nevada].

Under Pennsylvania law 18 Pa.C.S.A.§3503(b), a person commits the crime of defiant trespass if he or she comes onto or stays on your property after being told to stay away. You can tell a person to stay away from property that you either own or rent.

Under New Jersey criminal trespass law: Defiant trespassing: Defiant trespassing is referred to as a petty disorderly offense and carries penalties of up to 30 days in jail and a $500 fine.
The trespasser enters or remains in a place despite being notified from the owner not to trespass.

etc.

As far as trying to apply access device fraud / misuse of identity criminal statutes to the enterprise, I imagine you'd find one prosecutor who would decline to press charges, and another who might want to test the limits of the law, depending on how egregious and extensive the scheme was being played. Definitely not black and white.

But in any case, he's apparently playing a game you cannot win. To the utmost.

I never said it wasnt against the rules.

I said it wasnt against the law.

I break casino rules all day. I just dont break the law.

You are correct casino recourse is

1) void comps

2) trespass me

Casinos have also tried to have me arrested but IN EVERY INSTANCE POLICE REFUSED IN 3 DIFFERENT STATES

Now why would police refuse to arrest someone committing a crime? (Answer, no crime was committed)

I dont give a rats ass about their rules. Disrespectful probably. I only care about the law. And that is on my side.

As to recourse 1 and 2 above:

1A) It has happened where comps were voided. Since the casino almost always has to identify the players card and its misuse first, by the time they do, I have profited already. Occasionally they catch it early but its very rare. They just dont have any detection software that instantly knows someone is handing me their card (that would be some psychic software huh?)

1B) Casinos cannot withhold winnings even from promotions I have downloaded on other players cards although they too believe like you they can. I have had casinos try it. The gaming commission is called in by me and the casinos are forced to fork over the money (cash my vouchers) Shocking isnt it? You see the law is on my side. Casinos cant commit theft but I can accept gifts meant for other people if those people are okay with it

2A)Trespass me. Yep. I cant go back inside or I face arrest. I give you till the end of this sentence to figure out the solution

Okay ready?

I have dozens of people who work for me. Guess who handles my business in places I am trespassed if I have any to handle? Guess how another person not trespassed is not breaking the law just because I was trespassed.

Come on man, you are using your brain. I see you are smart. Think of EVERY counter contingency and you will see how powerless the casinos really are.

MDawg has some unusual beliefs. Evidently, decades of playing at the very highest levels has allowed him to observe things the rest of us can only fantasize about. I can see how someone who wagers millions in an afternoon can fail to see much potential in your manoeuvres.
While I can appreciate your efforts and recognize its potential, I also can see how someone who wagers six figures on a single hand might think it inconsequential.

Quote: darkoz

Come on man, you are using your brain. I see you are smart. Think of EVERY counter contingency and you will see how powerless the casinos really are.

I'm not against it, nor am I saying that it is not worth doing, just saying that it is an uphill battle.

I just made the decision long ago as far as casinos to just walk in the front door rather than the back (or side). As a result I did get banned (from BJ) for a period of time, but not for good.

Quote: MDawg

I'm not against it, nor am I saying that it is not worth doing, just saying that it is an uphill battle.

I just made the decision long ago as far as casinos to just walk in the front door rather than the back (or side). As a result I did get banned for a period of time, but not for good.

I suppose we can concur on that. It is an uphill battle although I have become so pro at it its just part of the deal. Doesnt faze me too much.

Part of my training in film production was the loss of potentially tens of thousands (as a technician I was held liable for certain errors) due to human or mechanical error. I have lost so much money in the film business (even major studios have flops and financial disasters)

So I am pretty immune to losses and know how to weather them.

There are plenty of difficult jobs. Firefighters risk their lives every day. Police too! No one tries to talk them out of their difficult professions.

While APing isnt noble like fighting fires or crime my point is I enjoy what I do, its profitable and any battles that need to be waged with casinos are part of the package.

Sometimes I even relish outsmarting a casino thats wised up. Life is boring otherwise

But in general I prefer the smooth operation to an ongoing casino war.:)

Quote: bobbartop

That would probably be true, if that were the case, but I do not use anyone's but my own card. That doesn't mean I don't understand the scam, and it doesn't mean I don't know people who do it. I don't know why it makes me uncomfortable, it's just a crummy topic to discuss. That doesn't mean all my posts are gems, far from it. lol

I feel you're headed down the wrong path, Dark. It's not too late to straighten out before you get yourself in a heap o' trouble. I don't want to see you get in trouble. I'm sure nobody here wants that.

Fwiw, I don't approve of the "method". It's weak, unimaginative, and it's cheating. I do not see casinos in an adversarial role.

The teams and individuals doing this are starting to annoy me. Have I ever cashed out someone else’s freeplay? Yea. Have I given my card to someone else to cash out? Yea. But I don’t go around with 8 cards cashing out civilians freeplay that I convinced to sign up and give me the card. I don’t have the friends and family who are interested in doing that. It puts me at a disadvantage to these card runners and teams that have endless people signing up for cards who have no intention of giving the casino legitimate play. They can take progressives at much lower numbers than I can.

I mean is it an AP move? Yea, sure. I agree it’s unimaginative. I’m not sure it defines you as a great AP to pay a homeless guy $300 to go get a card and give it to you and then you do a play and cash out the freeplay. I don’t think it’s cheating but if casinos catch you on someone else’s card. I would imagine they have the right to cancel any offers and restrict the card. There is a pretty easy way to limit this. I don’t know why casinos don’t do it more but I’m glad they don’t.

Quote: Sandybestdog

The teams and individuals doing this are starting to annoy me. Have I ever cashed out someone else’s freeplay? Yea. Have I given my card to someone else to cash out? Yea. But I don’t go around with 8 cards cashing out civilians freeplay that I convinced to sign up and give me the card. I don’t have the friends and family who are interested in doing that. It puts me at a disadvantage to these card runners and teams that have endless people signing up for cards who have no intention of giving the casino legitimate play. They can take progressives at much lower numbers than I can.

I mean is it an AP move? Yea, sure. I agree it’s unimaginative. I’m not sure it defines you as a great AP to pay a homeless guy $300 to go get a card and give it to you and then you do a play and cash out the freeplay. I don’t think it’s cheating but if casinos catch you on someone else’s card. I would imagine they have the right to cancel any offers and restrict the card. There is a pretty easy way to limit this. I don’t know why casinos don’t do it more but I’m glad they don’t.

If it makes you feel better what I do has nothing to do with progressives. Sometimes I play them if they are must hits but I am at pretty much the same disadvantage (or if the machine is high enough) advantage as you.

I dont think its fully grasped what I do. Just peripherally(I have read quite a few somewhat incorrect theories on this forum) Since so few on here can actually grasp the full maneuver I would say its highly imaginative.

I certainly dont pay homeless people or strangers lol. Why would I trust them? They could just as easily change the pin and take everything for themselves or report me if they changed their minds.

Everyone I use is a friend, relative or recommendation by such. Also, if I get caught these people need to testify they actually did give me their card to use if any criminal charges are attempted.

So its not as random person as you think

If someone testified they gave you the cards, aren't they opening both of you to possible conspiracy to defraud charges. It's easier to get you on conspiracy charges then any possible crime. They don't have to prove you defrauded anyone, just that you engaged in an attempt to.

Quote: billryan

If someone testified they gave you the cards, aren't they opening both of you to possible conspiracy to defraud charges. It's easier to get you on conspiracy charges then any possible crime. They don't have to prove you defrauded anyone, just that you engaged in an attempt to.

What fraud?

If ceasars says you can have a free toaster and you give your free toaster to someone else how is that fraud?

If you picked it up or had that person go down with your card its not fraud for you to accept what is freely offered and give it away.

Conspiracy must have a crime behind it. There is no crime here. If there is a sale on milk at the grocery and my friends all conspire to go on the sale day there is no crime of conspiracy to buy milk on sale.

DO. Serious question: IIRC you mentioned using attorneys(?) How much has that cost you thus far?

Quote: AxelWolf

DO. Serious question: IIRC you mentioned using attorneys(?) How much has that cost you thus far?

For the criminal case I won it cost me $2,000. Was going to cost more but charges were dropped before trial

Civil case about $3000. Case is on contingency. Costs are for out of pocket court filings depositions etc

Truthfully I spent more on attorneys for a patent for a new casino game which had the same problems with the patent office as other inventors.

None of these costs were catastrophic to me.

To put it another way, I have won more than I ever spent on attorneys in my total lifetime in just a single day at the casino.

Quote: darkoz

To put it another way, I have won more than I ever spent on attorneys in my total lifetime in just a single day at the casino.

That didn't need to be said. I was just curious if you have yet to run into a situation where it has cost 10's of thousands. And yes I know that still wouldn't be a big issue. But it certainly would suck. And if one of your people get jammed up and they do or say something that out of line and it goes further, I take it you will pay all their legal fees?