darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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September 14th, 2018 at 8:58:53 PM permalink
https://youtu.be/fixGhSsfl-Y

See the judge give his reasons for denial of appeal in Crockfords case
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
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RogerKint
September 14th, 2018 at 9:59:19 PM permalink
You can tell none of them know what the hell is going on.
TigerWu
TigerWu
Joined: May 23, 2016
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September 15th, 2018 at 7:57:03 AM permalink
Don't high rollers often get to negotiate their own rules for how a game is played? Ivey simply gamed the system and played by the casino's own rules, and the casino let him do it. I don't understand how he is liable for anything.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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September 15th, 2018 at 8:25:46 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Don't high rollers often get to negotiate their own rules for how a game is played? Ivey simply gamed the system and played by the casino's own rules, and the casino let him do it. I don't understand how he is liable for anything.



Casinos don't like to go into court and admit that its a different world for the wealthy.

Nor do casinos like to go into court and admit that they have the burden to train their staff concerning usual and customary cheating techniques. Dice dealers learn about loaded dice, shaved dice, dice switching, magnets, etc. This "learning" is a process often picked up informally over time at various casinos.

Edge sorting is well known. It is a matter of card decks being bought by Purchasing Managers instead of by Casino personnel. Walk into an average dealer in an average casino and ask the 8s and 9s to be turned and the average dealer and average floor man would laugh themselves sick. They might even call over a waitress and have her "bring that cheating jerk some really high class booze, he has given us the best laugh we've had all week long". However, it takes time to train personnel and particularly on matters that are absorbed over time rather than taught by formal instruction, there can be gaps in someone knowledge.

Walk into a limited access private salon for high rollers, particularly one where foreign language skills are valued and English language skills are not and one is likely to hit some really dumb dealers who might fall for something like this.

It was done openly and the casino should be held to its foolishly-entered bargain. The casino saved money by giving only on the job training and not having to pay full salary for classroom lectures. The casino saved money by paying low "wages" to its employees and generally having low standards.

However judges don't like to hear about the real world.
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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beachbumbabs
September 16th, 2018 at 7:52:20 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

It was done openly and the casino should be held to its foolishly-entered bargain.



Not sure about gaming regulations in the UK, but the NJ gaming regulations are VERY specific, and Phil Ivey had an almost identical situation at the Borgata (which also resulted in Ivey losing his winnings). NJ gaming regs for Baccarat are so detailed they specify what words the Dealer says at various points and which hand must be used when accessing the cards.

Games not played according to the gaming regs are not authorized and are forbidden. Seems to me, Borgata -- and Crockfords, if UK has similar requirements -- should have been sanctioned (and punished) by the gaming regulators for offering a game with rules not approved by the gaming regs.

The NJ gaming regs do not authorize turning cards end-for-end, as Ivey requested. Also, as Flea mentioned, edge-sorting as an advantage play has been well known in professional table-game management literature for about 50 years. So, gaming management should have known about this ploy. The worst case for Ivey, IMHO, is that the casino should have to refund all money Ivey initially deposited before play began. Instead, NJ gaming regulators stepped aside, and refused to hammer down on Borgata.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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September 16th, 2018 at 9:33:27 AM permalink
The best way to force a casino to abide by the regulations is to see that they pay whenever they choose to ignore them. The casino has the money, the staff, the training... they are the ones who should not be allowed to go running into court and say we got cheated because we got greedy and lazy.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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September 16th, 2018 at 11:19:12 AM permalink
Quote: RS

You can tell none of them know what the hell is going on.



honestly out of all of the videos ive ever seen of this issue, this guy gives the best explanation of what edge sorting is (IMO at least in this case)
most of the videos do not explain WHAT edge sorting was just that he did it, and it couldnt be proven. but the way these guys are talking, they say that, he acted superstitious and wanted the higher and better cards turned a different way, and it all came to my like a brick hitting my face. this seems easy as all hell to do IFF (<-haha) i can get a dealer to alternated the cards so i know when the better cards are on my side or i see a better card being connected to other cards.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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September 16th, 2018 at 11:22:05 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

The best way to force a casino to abide by the regulations is to see that they pay whenever they choose to ignore them. The casino has the money, the staff, the training... they are the ones who should not be allowed to go running into court and say we got cheated because we got greedy and lazy.



from what i understand, although they dont want to be regulated, the state provides them with legal protections like this and thats why they do it. otherwise it might be us against them and businesses dont like that.

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