Wow LOL
Without intending to divert into what those circumstances are, what games are actually unbeatable?Quote: WizardofnothingPai gow tiles is 100000 percent beatable given the right circumstance
Most slots are -- e.g., IGT's Double Diamond running on an S+ with no progressive -- but what about table games? Blackjack? Nope. 3CP? Nope. Roulette? Nope. Craps? Well, maybe that depends on whether you believe the DI folks...
Quote: MathExtremistWithout intending to divert into what those circumstances are, what games are actually unbeatable?
Most slots are -- e.g., IGT's Double Diamond running on an S+ with no progressive -- but what about table games? Blackjack? Nope. 3CP? Nope. Roulette? Nope. Craps? Well, maybe that depends on whether you believe the DI folks...
Seemse essentially any card game or player-banked game could be beatable. I have read a couple of times about misprinted felt layouts or dealers who misinterpret it. So if there are consistent payout errors, you could beat any game, I guess.
Barring payout errors, I think craps is "practically unbeatable" because I don't believe anyone is a good enough dice controller. Maybe there are other techniques I don't know about. I'm sure there are.
Wait a minute, Roulette is beatable? Can you pls send me some info via PM about this. I 'd like the game to still be there the next time I walk in ;-)Quote: MathExtremistWithout intending to divert into what those circumstances are, what games are actually unbeatable?
Most slots are -- e.g., IGT's Double Diamond running on an S+ with no progressive -- but what about table games? Blackjack? Nope. 3CP? Nope. Roulette? Nope. Craps? Well, maybe that depends on whether you believe the DI folks...
<edit> Or were you just taking EvenBob's word for it ;-)
I'd love to cut my losses in half, I might even walk away satisfied. I might not....
What am I missing here, or not understanding?
Quote: TigerWuWhat am I missing here, or not understanding?
You expect secrets to be revealed? Really?
I don't know what EvenBob does, but there are at least two ways roulette can be beaten that aren't PM worthy: some wheels are biased, and some people can do in their heads what Doyne Farmer and his team did with the world's first wearable computer. Especially with a sloppily consistent croupier.Quote: TwoFeathersATLWait a minute, Roulette is beatable? Can you pls send me some info via PM about this. I 'd like the game to still be there the next time I walk in ;-)
<edit> Or were you just taking EvenBob's word for it ;-)
Quote: TigerWuMaybe I just don't know what's being talked about by the world "unbeatable," because I don't see how 3CP, Roulette, and Pai Gow Tiles are going to be consistently beatable over the course of one's gambling career in a legitimately run casino... :/
What am I missing here, or not understanding?
Any table game run by a human is beatable. Dealers don't always follow procedure (sometimes even worse casino management is incompetent people and even their intended procedure is flawed) and any time they slip up you can take advantage of it.
Quote: DeMangoYou expect secrets to be revealed? Really?
No. Let me rephrase my question.
If I walk into a legitimately run major casino, let's say in Vegas, and sit down at a roulette wheel that is machined and running perfectly, run by a croupier who flawlessly operates the wheel and never makes a mistake when handling the bets, is roulette beatable?
If I go into that same casino and play Three Card Poker, with a dealer who perfectly and flawlessly shuffles, deals, and never makes a mistake with the bets, is it beatable?
Same with Pai Gow Tiles, etc.
To me, for a game to be considered "beatable," you should be able to consistently win at it under perfect conditions.
Quote: DiscreteMaths2Any table game run by a human is beatable. Dealers don't always follow procedure (sometimes even worse casino management is incompetent people and even their intended procedure is flawed) and any time they slip up you can take advantage of it.
Okay, that makes sense. I was just thinking in strictly mathematical terms about beatability, not taking into account human error.
Quote: TigerWu
To me, for a game to be considered "beatable," you should be able to consistently win at it under perfect conditions.
Under those conditions, absolutely no house vs player game is beatable.
There are still games that are beatable when you eliminate dealer sloppiness, but the list is a lot shorter. But it depends on what you mean by "consistently." No game has a player edge on every hand...Quote: DiscreteMaths2Under those conditions, absolutely no house vs player game is beatable.
Yes! We are back to 100,000 percents!!Quote: WizardofnothingPai gow tiles is 100000 percent beatable given the right circumstance
We don't need no stinking 100 percent.
Quote: MathExtremistThere are still games that are beatable when you eliminate dealer sloppiness, but the list is a lot shorter. But it depends on what you mean by "consistently." No game has a player edge on every hand...
The stipulation was perfect conditions. I could open a casino tomorrow with every house vs. player table and slot game available and guaranteed -EV on every game.
Quote: DiscreteMaths2The stipulation was perfect conditions. I could open a casino tomorrow with every house vs. player table and slot game available and guaranteed -EV on every game.
Perfect conditions (for the casino) isn't always the case. I don't need to be able to beat every X game.....only need 1 at a time available.
Quote: RSPerfect conditions (for the casino) isn't always the case. I don't need to be able to beat every X game.....only need 1 at a time available.
I am talking about a proposed theoretical casino with perfect conditions for the house. In real life I have never seen or heard of an actual casino operating this way 100% of the time but there is nothing stopping someone from doing that if they wanted to.
You need to define "perfect conditions" first. Do you have Ultimate X Video Poker on your floor? How about blackjack, Ultimate Texas Hold'em, or the baccarat Dragon 7 bet? If so, what are your "perfect conditions" for those games that change them from being beatable to not?Quote: DiscreteMaths2The stipulation was perfect conditions. I could open a casino tomorrow with every house vs. player table and slot game available and guaranteed -EV on every game.
Quote: MathExtremistYou need to define "perfect conditions" first. Do you have Ultimate X Video Poker on your floor? How about blackjack, Ultimate Texas Hold'em, or the baccarat Dragon 7 bet? If so, what are your "perfect conditions" for those games that change them from being beatable to not?
I don't consider an Ultimate X machine that can leave behind multipliers for another to be a purely house vs. player game, left behind multipliers are PvP. (same goes for anything with a progressive). Blackjack you have so many options. UTH / Baccarat I don't know enough about to know all the plays but generally speaking for physical card games: don't just assume a deck is shuffled, make sure the cards are fair (not marked, bent, or mis printed), if your game has hidden info as a mechanic make sure there is no leak.
Quote: DiscreteMaths2I am talking about a proposed theoretical casino with perfect conditions for the house. In real life I have never seen or heard of an actual casino operating this way 100% of the time but there is nothing stopping someone from doing that if they wanted to.
I think the point is that you really CAN'T do that, even if you want to. There will always be careless dealers. Some advantage plays are out of the casino's hands even though they don't cost the casino, e.g., vulturing multipliers on Ultimate X, banking casino games with an edge against bad players, playing poker well, etc. I'm not sure if that falls under "perfect conditions" or not.
I think if you assume perfect dealers and procedures, no +EV video poker, you make all communication between players at table games illegal, and you assume the casino doesn't give sufficient cashback on any slot to make it +EV, I can think of possible edges on the following games:
-Poker
-Blackjack and its variants
-Sports and horse betting
-Slots
-Pai gow poker
-Pai gow tiles
Quote: WizardofnothingPai gow tiles can be straight up beatable with the best dealers and the perfect wash and the cleanest tiles - I'll leave it at that
I know you are exponentially more experienced at gaming than I am, but at the same time I am highly skeptical of this claim...
If someone such as myself would want to do further research into how Pai Gow Tiles is a beatable game under perfect casino conditions, where would I start?
Quote: MrGoldenSunI think the point is that you really CAN'T do that, even if you want to. There will always be careless dealers. Some advantage plays are out of the casino's hands even though they don't cost the casino, e.g., vulturing multipliers on Ultimate X, banking casino games with an edge against bad players, playing poker well, etc. I'm not sure if that falls under "perfect conditions" or not.
I think if you assume perfect dealers and procedures, no +EV video poker, you make all communication between players at table games illegal, and you assume the casino doesn't give sufficient cashback on any slot to make it +EV, I can think of possible edges on the following games:
-Poker
-Blackjack and its variants
-Sports and horse betting
-Slots
-Pai gow poker
-Pai gow tiles
Well any game where there is a Player vs. Player element you as a player can gain an edge, but you are taking from your fellow players not the house. (Ultimate X, Progressive Slots, Poker, Parimutuel betting, etc). Also you run into the issue of when is a game still the game, like I am still counting it if a Casino had Blackjack with every *bad* rule variation, close to zero deck penetration, and had an automated or semi automated dealer. (if you don't count that, its reasonable, my larger point is the casinos are in control and they aren't forced to run games with bad rules for them).
