Radio Show
Did anyone else hear this? If so, what were your thoughts?
I've seen it in the pits. Some drunk guy who has NO CLUE what he's doing gets up a lot of money and they give him the boot, ask him to stop playing, buy him dinner so they can send him away, etc... PB's are scared if their tables lose a lot of money they'll get fired, because that's what the higher up execs look at because they're, well, idiots.
Casinos used to understand (I think) that they have a built in edge, and just like any AP, they just need to get to the long run to see it. Any great blackjack player can't win on any given night, just like one blackjack table in a casino only gets 5 hours of "full" play (6 spots so 30 hours of total play) in any given night. These casinos are terrified if the tables are losing that some "AP" is getting them, or some players are just on winning streaks that affect their bottom lines when in reality any one player pretty much won't affect their bottom line. Yes, there are huge mega ultra whales that might want to bet hundreds of thousands per hand, but that's up to the casino to accept or decline that variance. What they should be looking at instead of "did we win or lose tonight" is "what was our expectation from the action tonight?" Casinos need to understand what Certainty Equivalent (CE) is...
This, at least to me, is what Dennis was explaining... and I couldn't agree with it more.
Quote: RomesCasinos used to understand (I think) that they have a built in edge, and just like any AP, they just need to get to the long run to see it. Any great blackjack player can't win on any given night, just like one blackjack table in a casino only gets 5 hours of "full" play (6 spots so 30 hours of total play) in any given night. These casinos are terrified if the tables are losing that some "AP" is getting them, or some players are just on winning streaks that affect their bottom lines when in reality any one player pretty much won't affect their bottom line. Yes, there are huge mega ultra whales that might want to bet hundreds of thousands per hand, but that's up to the casino to accept or decline that variance. What they should be looking at instead of "did we win or lose tonight" is "what was our expectation from the action tonight?" Casinos need to understand what Certainty Equivalent (CE) is...
If a PB doesn't understand this he shouldn't be in the business. If somebody is a winner you comp them a free room so they stay longer and lose it back. If everyone lost a nice steady amount every visit, the casino's profits would be very constant: zero, because nobody would gamble under those conditions.
It might amaze you if you've never seen it first hand... but 95% of the PB's I've come across don't even know how the games they're overseeing work. The amount of negligence and miss-information in most pits is astounding. They're just there to do they're job and collect a check. All they care about is self preservation, and if the execs sweat their pits losing money then they'll try to stop their pits from losing, even if that means doing something stupid and completely uneducated.Quote: jml24If a PB doesn't understand this he shouldn't be in the business. If somebody is a winner you comp them a free room so they stay longer and lose it back. If everyone lost a nice steady amount every visit, the casino's profits would be very constant: zero, because nobody would gamble under those conditions.
Quote: RomesIt might amaze you if you've never seen it first hand... but 95% of the PB's I've come across don't even know how the games they're overseeing work. The amount of negligence and miss-information in most pits is astounding. They're just there to do they're job and collect a check. All they care about is self preservation, and if the execs sweat their pits losing money then they'll try to stop their pits from losing, even if that means doing something stupid and completely uneducated.
I agree with you that lots of casino personnel are clueless. Where I completely disagree with the guest is his thinking that letting AP's play more is good for the casino. Anyone who would rather have a pro play a particular machine instead of a ploppy is crazy to me.
He also seemed clueless when he made the comment about casinos not backing off card counters decades ago. When Richard jumped in and said he had been barred from pretty much every place in town the guest seemed perplexed and surprised.
I would think that all of the AP's out there would want to know what casinos he is advising. Juicy opportunities are probably available.
It's a fine line. I DO agree letting AP's play progressives/etc is the wiser play for the casino. When a casino has a slot or VP progressive, that's money allocated to be paid out. They can't and won't keep it. So what do they want? What's the point of having the progressive? To get people to play... Why they wouldn't want an AP playing 1,000 hands per hour at max coins over Mrs. Daisy playing 200 hands per hour at min coins is beyond me. No matter what someone is going to hit it eventually, so why wouldn't you want the most ACTION in order to 1) get to the 'long run' faster, and 2) take the maximum "brokerage" fee from their build in house edge.Quote: DRichI agree with you that lots of casino personnel are clueless. Where I completely disagree with the guest is his thinking that letting AP's play more is good for the casino. Anyone who would rather have a pro play a particular machine instead of a ploppy is crazy to me.
He also seemed clueless when he made the comment about casinos not backing off card counters decades ago. When Richard jumped in and said he had been barred from pretty much every place in town the guest seemed perplexed and surprised.
I do kind of agree with you and his views on blackjack AP's though. Even Richard said "what if this BJ counters EV is $500/hour?" Then he did say he'd back him off though. I don't think he was perplexed as to 'why' Richard was backed off, more so that in his view of things you shouldn't be kicking any players out at all. Flat bet, or back the counters off from BJ. In fact, he stated what he would do was change the rules so they wouldn't have an edge (H17, 8D, cut off 3-4 decks, etc).
Overall, the 'concept' he was pushing I believe entirely. Casinos need to stop worrying about their "win/loss" every night and remember that they are also playing for the long run... remember that they have a built in edge and they aren't even playing the game. They are a money BROKER that just passed money back and forth and they take a FEE (house edge) for the transactions. So what they want should be MAXIMUM transactions... and they shouldn't care about anything else such as nightly wins/losses. A great example of this is the El Cortez who's kicked players out for flat betting $50 and winning for an hour straight. You're not winning with a flat bet. Their games are tight so I doubt you're getting any extra info. Why on EARTH would you kick someone out for actually playing the HE straight up? I don't care if they're lucky and win 100 days in a row. So long as I believe they're playing the game straight up then I'm making CE off them and when they get to the long run they will give me my expectation. This is the theory/belief I think he was trying to push, and I whole heartedly agree with it.
Quote: RomesIt's a fine line. I DO agree letting AP's play progressives/etc is the wiser play for the casino. When a casino has a slot or VP progressive, that's money allocated to be paid out. They can't and won't keep it. So what do they want? What's the point of having the progressive? To get people to play... Why they wouldn't want an AP playing 1,000 hands per hour at max coins over Mrs. Daisy playing 200 hands per hour at min coins is beyond me. No matter what someone is going to hit it eventually, so why wouldn't you want the most ACTION in order to 1) get to the 'long run' faster, and 2) take the maximum "brokerage" fee from their build in house edge.
I guess we just disagree on this. Let's assume that the progressive will hit in 1000 spins. Do I want a pro playing it at 1000 hands per hour and hitting it and leaving the casino until the progressive is positive again. Wouldn't I rather have five little old ladies that play it at 200 hands per hour that continue to play as long as they have money? They will both hit it after the same amount of handle, and I can expect to get all the profit back with the old ladies because they show up every day that they have money.
That's horrible logic. (-;.Quote: DRichI guess we just disagree on this. Let's assume that the progressive will hit in 1000 spins. Do I want a pro playing it at 1000 hands per hour and hitting it and leaving the casino until the progressive is positive again. Wouldn't I rather have five little old ladies that play it at 200 hands per hour that continue to play as long as they have money? They will both hit it after the same amount of handle, and I can expect to get all the profit back with the old ladies because they show up every day that they have money.
I think you have said it yourself places with better pay-tables are busier than others, at least locally. Lets go with that.
Ps. little old ladies tend to outpace everyone. Just go watch a slot tournament.
I agree with Axel that I think this is very poor logic. The casino shouldn't think about "winning the progressive money back" from the little old ladies. Again, they're a transaction fee agent and all they should care about is people playing the games and their Expected Loss.Quote: DRich...They will both hit it after the same amount of handle, and I can expect to get all the profit back with the old ladies because they show up every day that they have money.
Even in your situation if the AP is in and out of there in 1 hour, do you really think the little old ladies WON'T play the same exact machines regardless if the progressive is a +EV play? Do you really think those locals won't come back the next day and continue to play regardless?
Quote: RomesAgain, they're a transaction fee agent and all they should care about is people playing the games and their Expected Loss.
Absolutely, you want to maximize the expected loss. Having a player walk out with a win that won't spend it back is not maximizing player loss. I think we can both agree the goal is for the casino to win the most, that's called business.
Quote: RomesEven in your situation if the AP is in and out of there in 1 hour, do you really think the little old ladies WON'T play the same exact machines regardless if the progressive is a +EV play? Do you really think those locals won't come back the next day and continue to play regardless?
Yes, they will continue to play every day that they have money. Sadly, some days people run out of money until it gets replenished. If they hit the jackpot they will have more money and play more than if they don't hit it. Again, this is maximizing long term revenue for the casino.
This is what the guest was referring to... Casinos need to get OUT of the "win/loss" mentality. They need to be worried about HOLD, Expected Loss of CUSTOMERS, etc, etc. When people just play, the casinos collect their "transaction fee's" from the House Edges. AP's playing VP/Slots aren't changing the house edges, they're simply playing the games straight up. If they happen to be playing a progressive, well that money is there for a reason. It's there for ANYONE to win and already accounted for.Quote: DRichAbsolutely, you want to maximize the expected loss. Having a player walk out with a win that won't spend it back is not maximizing player loss. I think we can both agree the goal is for the casino to win the most, that's called business.
The little old ladies that bet min coin and play 200 hands per hour are essentially WORTHLESS to the casino. If they're playing a 90% payback slot at 200 spins per hour min coin (2c let's say)... Their Expected Loss (EL) = 200(.02)(-.10) =-$0.40. These little old ladies earn the casino 40 cents per hour... never mind their mailers/free play/etc/etc.Quote: DRichYes, they will continue to play every day that they have money. Sadly, some days people run out of money until it gets replenished. If they hit the jackpot they will have more money and play more than if they don't hit it. Again, this is maximizing long term revenue for the casino.
The pro's come in and play max coin 1,000 hands for 1 hour. So let's say $5 on the same machine and 1,000 spins. Their EL (REGARDLESS OF THE PROGRESSIVE because that's PROMOTIONAL money to get people to simply play the game) is EL = 200(5)(-.10) = -$100.
The pro playing this game for ONE HOUR ALONE is worth 5 little old ladies playing this game for 5 hours per day for 10 days!!! Now let's think, little old ladies might play for a couple hours (avg 2.5), once or twice a week (let's say twice a week). It would take 5 little old ladies 2.5 months, that's 10 WEEKS, to match what this AP is giving them in EL for 1 HOUR of play.
To me, insanity not to have that pro play. ESPECIALLY given those little old ladies are STILL going to play even before/after that pro comes in and gives you 3 months worth of their EV.
Quote: RomesIt might amaze you if you've never seen it first hand... but 95% of the PB's I've come across don't even know how the games they're overseeing work. The amount of negligence and miss-information in most pits is astounding. They're just there to do they're job and collect a check. All they care about is self preservation, and if the execs sweat their pits losing money then they'll try to stop their pits from losing, even if that means doing something stupid and completely uneducated.
As long as PB's make less than dealers and cocktails waitresses, nothing will change !
Question: On the typical penny slot, what is the actual minimum bet playable ?Quote: Romes
The little old ladies that bet min coin and play 200 hands per hour are essentially WORTHLESS to the casino. If they're playing a 90% payback slot at 200 spins per hour min coin (2c let's say)... Their Expected Loss (EL) = 200(.02)(-.10) =-$0.40. These little old ladies earn the casino 40 cents per hour... never mind their mailers/free play/etc/etc.
I'm not much of a slot player, but some of the ones I have seen I think you have to play "15 lines" so in this example (which is still valid) wouldn't it be 30 cents per spin ?
Quote: RomesPB's are scared if their tables lose a lot of money they'll get fired, because that's what the higher up execs look at because they're, well, idiots.
Generally speaking, American business is short-sighted, so maybe we shouldn't be so surprised. In Sales, it is well known that you can't talk about how you did last month without being screamed at with "but what did you sell TODAY!"
It's probably the same with the PBs ... constant over-attention to whether you won or lost money today.
Quote: RomesWhy they wouldn't want an AP playing 1,000 hands per hour at max coins over Mrs. Daisy playing 200 hands per hour at min coins is beyond me
Mrs. Daisy will probably just wind up giving the money back, while the AP ...
Quote: Romes
The little old ladies that bet min coin and play 200 hands per hour are essentially WORTHLESS to the casino. If they're playing a 90% payback slot at 200 spins per hour min coin (2c let's say)... Their Expected Loss (EL) = 200(.02)(-.10) =-$0.40. These little old ladies earn the casino 40 cents per hour... never mind their mailers/free play/etc/etc.
The majority of progressives require players to play the max to hit the progressive so I don't think you can assume the Little Old Ladies are playing minimum coin on the progressive machines. Video poker, blazing 7's, sizzling 7's, WAP games. Unless you are just referring to "must hits". I am wondering if an AP has ever had an advantage and hit one of the big WAP jackpots? Probably not, I doubt they ever get positive.
Quote: DRichThe majority of progressives require players to play the max to hit the progressive so I don't think you can assume the Little Old Ladies are playing minimum coin on the progressive machines. Video poker, blazing 7's, sizzling 7's, WAP games. Unless you are just referring to "must hits". I am wondering if an AP has ever had an advantage and hit one of the big WAP jackpots? Probably not, I doubt they ever get positive.
My brain is fuzzed today, I guess; I can't puzzle out what WAP games are, but I'm guessing I'll go "d'oh!" if you decode it...please?
Edit: Is this where I add a quip about you maturing into a real Floridian?
Quote: FaceWide Area Progressive =)
Edit: Is this where I add a quip about you maturing into a real Floridian?
Hahahahaha! I don't think I ever will. People are OLD here, not to mention overbaked. Yeah, I have almost 30 years on you. But old is as old does, I think.
PS: Good El Cortez story!
http://www.cdcgamingreports.com/gaming-radio/our-guest-this-week-is-blackjack-player-romes-romes-has-been-playing-blackjack-and-carnival-games-for-about-10-years/
Ha, I felt like I was droning on a bit with it, but all the subtle details are what made that night so memorable / enjoyable. =)Quote: odiousgambitWhat? Romes is the guest?
PS: Good El Cortez story!
http://www.cdcgamingreports.com/gaming-radio/our-guest-this-week-is-blackjack-player-romes-romes-has-been-playing-blackjack-and-carnival-games-for-about-10-years/
Quote: RomesHa, I felt like I was droning on a bit with it, but all the subtle details are what made that night so memorable / enjoyable. =)
Good interview, I enjoyed it. You did fine. Looking forward to the next installment.
Thanks. I'll work on some "smallcapgrowth" black dildo/hooker stories lol.Quote: bobbartopGood interview, I enjoyed it. You did fine. Looking forward to the next installment.
Quote: RomesThanks. I'll work on some "smallcapgrowth" black dildo/hooker stories lol.
Sounds like positive EV to me.
I didn't take any liberties with my stories or my background, other than possibly removing any sensitive information from them. ;-)Quote: RSSo how much of that stuff you make up, huh Romes? Mixed martial arts, programmer, stand up comedian? Next you're going to say you make money by gambling...tisk tisk tisk.
Nice Job Romes.
This will forever be funny to me lol, glad you enjoyed it.Quote: mrsuit31Five Dolla Winna!!!...
I have seen a lot of players signal each other at a table but I would not have guessed that any team had a signal for flirt with the dealer.
Well that would lead me to think one was good and one was bad? =PQuote: DRichGreat job Romes. You came across completely different on the radio than I would have expected based on your online persona.
We have a few weird signals, but not one for flirt with the dealer. We have one for chat with the dealer, but flirting is kind of a situation basis ;-).Quote: DRichI have seen a lot of players signal each other at a table but I would not have guessed that any team had a signal for flirt with the dealer.
. That's what she said. I believed her. Then I ran into her sister who gave the low down, down low, so to speak. Just joking, I don't follow these radio shows, is there an Internet follow-up option? Or am I lost in the wilderness once again?Quote: RomesI didn't take any liberties with my stories or my background, other than possibly removing any sensitive information from them. ;-)
Moses found a tablet out there.
Jesus wandered out there as well, I may have my parables and legends confused.
But I can tell you about her sister, but maybe you CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
Just 2F
Quote: TwoFeathersATLI don't follow these radio shows, is there an Internet follow-up option? Or am I lost in the wilderness once again?
Perhaps you wandered when you might have spotted a link.
Actually I think munchkin.com is the best place to check for gwae* broadcasts
http://www.richardmunchkin.com/search/label/Radio%20Show%20Podcasts
*yes, member gwae, you have f....d this abbreviation up pretty bad, so I am reluctant to use it sometimes LOL
Quote: odiousgambitPerhaps you wandered when you might have spotted a link.
Actually I think munchkin.com is the best place to check for gwae* broadcasts
http://www.richardmunchkin.com/search/label/Radio%20Show%20Podcasts
*yes, member gwae, you have f....d this abbreviation up pretty bad, so I am reluctant to use it sometimes LOL
GWAE messin' everything up for us....who does he think he is anyway?! gah damn...
You've even got me a bit confused on this one 2F =P.Quote: TwoFeathersATL. That's what she said. I believed her. Then I ran into her sister who gave the low down, down low, so to speak. Just joking, I don't follow these radio shows, is there an Internet follow-up option? Or am I lost in the wilderness once again?
Moses found a tablet out there.
Jesus wandered out there as well, I may have my parables and legends confused.
But I can tell you about her sister, but maybe you CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
Just 2F
I didn't write that jhit.Quote: RomesYou've even got me a bit confused on this one 2F =P.
Must have been my evil twin.
My mind works in mysterious ways at times.
Sometimes it doesn't work at all ;-)
Quote: RomesWell that would lead me to think one was good and one was bad? =P
No, not at all. From your forum posts I didn't realize that you were a serious AP. Many people on these forums, such as myself, are opportunistic AP's but don't spend much time working on it.
Yes, we've certainly burned the hours during weeknights only to get up the next morning for the 9-5 jobs. I'm very proud of all the members on my team for the hours they've put in, and we have a lot to show for it =).Quote: RigondeauxNice job. 800 hours a year AP and a full time job? You have got a lot of energy. Anyway, I enjoyed the episode and you came off well. The hour went by very quickly.
Serious as a heart attack, sir =D. For all the hours we've put in playing I've put in tons and tons more hours researching, studying, programming, networking, etc. I was once a low roller, and then I kept up the low roller appearance for a while simply to fly under the radar... but with some discretion I don't see why the level of sharing I did couldn't be done, so I did. At the end of the day blood, sweat, and tears have went in to AP'ing for me... I'm very serious about it.Quote: DRichNo, not at all. From your forum posts I didn't realize that you were a serious AP. Many people on these forums, such as myself, are opportunistic AP's but don't spend much time working on it.
Quote: RSQuote: odiousgambitPerhaps you wandered when you might have spotted a link.
Actually I think munchkin.com is the best place to check for gwae* broadcasts
http://www.richardmunchkin.com/search/label/Radio%20Show%20Podcasts
*yes, member gwae, you have f....d this abbreviation up pretty bad, so I am reluctant to use it sometimes LOL
GWAE messin' everything up for us....who does he think he is anyway?! gah damn...
For a while anytime someone would talk about the radio show I would stay out of the conversation because I didn't want to give the appearance that I had anything to do with the show.
Maybe I can turn this into one of those squatters dot com gold mines. I can sell my account to Mr Munchkin.
Yeah I thought we'd be doing it in person to boot. The plan was originally to Skype, but Bob had some issues I think and a conference call with a digital recorder I think was what ended up happening. Gotta make due with what ya got sometimes =P.Quote: gamerfreakI liked the show, I just wish ya'll would use USB mics and skype rather than phones. You'd be amazed at the increased audio quality.
Quote: RomesYeah I thought we'd be doing it in person to boot. The plan was originally to Skype, but Bob had some issues I think and a conference call with a digital recorder I think was what ended up happening. Gotta make due with what ya got sometimes =P.
Oh gotcha, this was my first time listening didn't know they normally skype!
and I say I'm just going to play for a few
minutes, they leave me alone. Or I say, why,
you never give me squat in the mail so I
threw it away. Or, my wife has it in her
purse and I'll get it later.
The best is, why, this casino has the worst
comps for (insert game your playing), it's
a joke. They usually agree with you and wander
away. Or they believe you because they have
no idea what the comps are. But they won't
ask you again because you gave them a good
reason not to.
The worst thing to do is just refuse without
giving an excuse. You have to say something
to make them shut up about it.
Quote: gamerfreakOh gotcha, this was my first time listening didn't know they normally skype!
This show used to be on the radio and I am assuming used a radio broadcast booth. About a month ago the station got sold and the show is now done as a podcast. You can definitely tell the difference in audio quality since the change. Sometimes it sounds like Mr. Dancer is on speakerphone which is horrible when trying to listen to it.
