Ethics of betting more when the pit boss is watching
January 4th, 2015 at 7:52:33 PM
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(this is inspired by the recent thread on ratholing)
If you're trying to get comps it seems to make sense to bet more when the pit boss is looking. I've seen multiple authors recommend this. Maybe bet $10 when s/he's not around and then increase to $50. Personally I think this is dishonest, maybe somewhat worse than telling your wife she "looks nice" when she doesn't and somewhat less serious than pirating movies.
I haven't varied my bets like this, but I have considered it. Usually I avoid chasing comps.
What's the chance of the pit boss noticing this? Would they confuse it with counting? I suspect it would just be dealt with by comping at the $10 rate.
If you're trying to get comps it seems to make sense to bet more when the pit boss is looking. I've seen multiple authors recommend this. Maybe bet $10 when s/he's not around and then increase to $50. Personally I think this is dishonest, maybe somewhat worse than telling your wife she "looks nice" when she doesn't and somewhat less serious than pirating movies.
I haven't varied my bets like this, but I have considered it. Usually I avoid chasing comps.
What's the chance of the pit boss noticing this? Would they confuse it with counting? I suspect it would just be dealt with by comping at the $10 rate.
January 4th, 2015 at 8:23:57 PM
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As a comps hustler I can tell you that the casinos do the most unethical methods for rating you so I hardly see how it is unethical to utilize the arsenal at your disposal to obtain those comps.
Let me ask you this:
When the pit boss sees you are wagering at $50, you are actually risking that $50 at that moment? If his rating is for $50 then that is because that is precisely what you are risking. If they cannot watch you as you vary your bets then they need a better system. Feel no guilt about it.
Here is another scenario. You have a system that requires you to bet more as you lose (or win). Not necessarily a straight martingale but you raise your bets in a succession. Is it ethical that the pit boss sees your first bet and rates you at ten bucks an hour when within fifteen minutes you might be wagering hundreds per hand? And when using this system you lose thousands is it ethical that the casino comp you as a ten dollar bettor? Or is ok when the issues with their comping methods work in their favor?
Let me ask you this:
When the pit boss sees you are wagering at $50, you are actually risking that $50 at that moment? If his rating is for $50 then that is because that is precisely what you are risking. If they cannot watch you as you vary your bets then they need a better system. Feel no guilt about it.
Here is another scenario. You have a system that requires you to bet more as you lose (or win). Not necessarily a straight martingale but you raise your bets in a succession. Is it ethical that the pit boss sees your first bet and rates you at ten bucks an hour when within fifteen minutes you might be wagering hundreds per hand? And when using this system you lose thousands is it ethical that the casino comp you as a ten dollar bettor? Or is ok when the issues with their comping methods work in their favor?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 4th, 2015 at 9:17:12 PM
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Quote: dudestupidPersonally I think this is dishonest, maybe somewhat worse than telling your wife she "looks nice" when she doesn't
1. Your wife always looks nice.
2. Don't fret about the honesty.
Casinos generally base comps on the greater of ADT or actual losses. They're tracking your buy-in, your rebuys, your cash-out, and the duration you were at the table. Periodically, they're looking at your bet size. They're inferring the number of rounds played based on time at the table.
If there's any doubt on your bet size, they'll gladly call surveillance to check... or more likely, they'll just assume your average is the lowest they saw.
You're going to get shorted on comps, even if they give you full credit for your bets. Don't feel bad about playing the game.
May the cards fall in your favor.
January 4th, 2015 at 9:35:43 PM
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There should be no ethical dilemma. It's the casinos responsibility to track and rate you accordingly. If you bet more when the pit is looking, so what?! One more thing, you don't know if the pit is actually rating your total action. I have found out from a supervisor that you are rated on your overall play which is suppose to factor in if you've been betting less and suddenly ramp up. In other words, it all averages out.
I use to employ a strategy of betting only when rolling the dice. Well guess what, the pit actually stopped rating me when I had no action.
If you have ethical dilemmas about this, then don't try to milk a comp. Its not uncommon for the supervisor to subtly.check with the rest of the pit on a players level of action.
I use to employ a strategy of betting only when rolling the dice. Well guess what, the pit actually stopped rating me when I had no action.
If you have ethical dilemmas about this, then don't try to milk a comp. Its not uncommon for the supervisor to subtly.check with the rest of the pit on a players level of action.
January 4th, 2015 at 10:04:10 PM
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Yes I agree Darkoz.
I believe We had a supposed supervisor/ dealer say if you don't tip enough, he will lie and and make sure you get no rating and marked as a card counter or possible cheat.
Casinos are very unethical. They will serve you booze until you pass out as long as your not being an ass. I guarantee you I can get 7 BIG shots (=to about 11) in a 1 HR from 1 person without a second though, and I don't weigh a lot.
Casinos will or have done the following.....
They retroactively screw people on promotions.
They have baited AP's to 86 them.
They have denied expired slot tickets.
They will go out of there way to entice you to lose your money.
They have unfairly kicked people out of their rooms.
They have knowingly illegally detained players.
They occasionally unfairly beat players.
They have denied cashing of chips.
They cheat at drawings.
They use slot keys to spy on each other.
I had the head of security tell me, he would lie and get his underlings to lie to metropolitan police to say he previously 86ed me and have me arrested for trespassing.
Employees will steal from you.
They don't want anyone with skill to play.
I've had machines cheat me and they refuse to compensate me.
I've had proof another customer took my cash out tickets and they refused to do anything.
They have lied in court.
They have knowingly let underage gamblers loose thousands.
They have voided payments on technicalities.
They have knowingly accused innocence players of serious crimes.
They knowingly faults advertise.
They will supply big players with illegal perks.(drugs, hookers)
They turn a blind eye to gamblers with million dollar addictions and even encourage people like that.
It's only an illusion that they want winners. They only want suckers to occasionally win.
I believe We had a supposed supervisor/ dealer say if you don't tip enough, he will lie and and make sure you get no rating and marked as a card counter or possible cheat.
Casinos are very unethical. They will serve you booze until you pass out as long as your not being an ass. I guarantee you I can get 7 BIG shots (=to about 11) in a 1 HR from 1 person without a second though, and I don't weigh a lot.
Casinos will or have done the following.....
They retroactively screw people on promotions.
They have baited AP's to 86 them.
They have denied expired slot tickets.
They will go out of there way to entice you to lose your money.
They have unfairly kicked people out of their rooms.
They have knowingly illegally detained players.
They occasionally unfairly beat players.
They have denied cashing of chips.
They cheat at drawings.
They use slot keys to spy on each other.
I had the head of security tell me, he would lie and get his underlings to lie to metropolitan police to say he previously 86ed me and have me arrested for trespassing.
Employees will steal from you.
They don't want anyone with skill to play.
I've had machines cheat me and they refuse to compensate me.
I've had proof another customer took my cash out tickets and they refused to do anything.
They have lied in court.
They have knowingly let underage gamblers loose thousands.
They have voided payments on technicalities.
They have knowingly accused innocence players of serious crimes.
They knowingly faults advertise.
They will supply big players with illegal perks.(drugs, hookers)
They turn a blind eye to gamblers with million dollar addictions and even encourage people like that.
It's only an illusion that they want winners. They only want suckers to occasionally win.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
January 5th, 2015 at 12:39:34 AM
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Axle what do you mean by"they use slot keys to spy on each other" ?
Happy days are here again
January 5th, 2015 at 1:46:20 AM
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http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/peppermill-casino-owners-agree-1-million-fine-over-use-slot-machine-reset-keyQuote: HunterhillAxle what do you mean by"they use slot keys to spy on each other" ?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
January 5th, 2015 at 2:25:49 AM
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Thanks. I had forgotten about that incident. I agree with all the examples you gave. Back in the days when floor people did manual ratings they would just rip up your rating card and throw it away if they didn't like you.
Happy days are here again
January 5th, 2015 at 5:21:43 AM
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Quote: dudestupidPersonally I think this is dishonest, ...
I don't. It is part of the cat and mouse game. It is like going a little slower when you see a cop up ahead. Furthermore, in my experience, it isn't even helpful. Most of the time when the floorman comes by you're in the middle of the hand and can't do anything about whatever you wagered. It is these "mid state" wagers that they tend to rely on.
Quote:maybe somewhat worse than telling your wife she "looks nice" when she doesn't and somewhat less serious than pirating movies.
Nobody ever accused me of understanding the first thing about women. However, after 20 years of marriage, I've learned that your wife/GF ALWAYS looks nice.
Once my wife wore a hideous blouse composed of a little flower pattern. I told her it looked like Walt Disney threw up. She has been holding a grudge over that remark for years.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
January 5th, 2015 at 5:43:49 AM
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Heck, I always recommend that you start out with a good healthy bet and a good healthy Toke Bet for the Dealer too. The FloorPerson is still there doing your paper work and will see you "doing the Lord's work" as will the dealer(s). And you would eventually make a toke bet anyway so you might as well start out with the dealers favorably watching out for you.
As to an unbecoming blouse or some such thing .... if you've already left the house, you say nothing. If she still has an opportunity to change it, you say that you do not care for it, but "Honey, you know my fashion sense is worthless to you".
If its not a wife but a niece, you never make any comment about how she is dressed. Not ever. Not even to the cop on the street who mistakenly takes her attire as a sign of a certain profession. You say NOTHING about her attire.
As to an unbecoming blouse or some such thing .... if you've already left the house, you say nothing. If she still has an opportunity to change it, you say that you do not care for it, but "Honey, you know my fashion sense is worthless to you".
If its not a wife but a niece, you never make any comment about how she is dressed. Not ever. Not even to the cop on the street who mistakenly takes her attire as a sign of a certain profession. You say NOTHING about her attire.
January 5th, 2015 at 6:54:22 AM
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I will agree with what seems to be the prevailing opinion, it may be devious but I wouldn't call it unethical. Can you get away with increasing your average bet by a few dollars an hour? Maybe. However, unless you're really good at it, I don't see it paying off in the long run, increasing my average bet from $25 to $50 opens up the potential for some bad variance.
Plus, a decent supervisor will notice your bets back down to $25 the next time someone buys into the table. Do it if you wish, but in my experience, it doesn't work nearly as well in reality as it does in theory.
Plus, a decent supervisor will notice your bets back down to $25 the next time someone buys into the table. Do it if you wish, but in my experience, it doesn't work nearly as well in reality as it does in theory.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
January 5th, 2015 at 8:05:45 AM
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Quote: ahiromuI will agree with what seems to be the prevailing opinion, it may be devious but I wouldn't call it unethical. Can you get away with increasing your average bet by a few dollars an hour? Maybe. However, unless you're really good at it, I don't see it paying off in the long run, increasing my average bet from $25 to $50 opens up the potential for some bad variance.
Plus, a decent supervisor will notice your bets back down to $25 the next time someone buys into the table. Do it if you wish, but in my experience, it doesn't work nearly as well in reality as it does in theory.
Went to NYNY many years back when it first opened. No pre-arranged deal. Friend was a green chipper at BJ, I was generally a $10 player. I would often bet 35-40 on my first few bets, then return to my usual $10 -$15 range. BS, no counting. I got my 4 night stay virtually totally comped, my friend got one of his 4 nights comped. I may have played slightly longer than him, but his real average bet per hour times hours played definitely was greater than mine.
I am convinced it works. I am also convinced that being friendly with the pit boss helps as well.
January 5th, 2015 at 8:12:50 AM
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Quote: Wizardafter 20 years of marriage, I've learned that your wife/GF ALWAYS looks nice.
My wife had a red suit once, pants and top, that didnt complement her well and wouldn't have even if it was another color. I finally had to tell her it made her look like Mrs. Santa Claus. I think I only got away with this only because I had been observing that same caution 99% of the time. In fact she claimed and still claims I am too quick to say she "looks fine"
Unfortunately, she preserved the pants, which I still hated, and they really made her look so bad I wondered what other people thought. Thank God I think those pants finally gave up the ghost.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
January 5th, 2015 at 8:32:57 AM
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Quote: WizardI don't. It is part of the cat and mouse game. It is like going a little slower when you see a cop up ahead. Furthermore, in my experience, it isn't even helpful. Most of the time when the floorman comes by you're in the middle of the hand and can't do anything about whatever you wagered. It is these "mid state" wagers that they tend to rely on.
Nobody ever accused me of understanding the first thing about women. However, after 20 years of marriage, I've learned that your wife/GF ALWAYS looks nice.
Once my wife wore a hideous blouse composed of a little flower pattern. I told her it looked like Walt Disney threw up. She has been holding a grudge over that remark for years.
So you have the Wizards blessings on it. Nuff said.
As for the wife stories, I guess that's why I am sitting here typing alone in my bedroom. My ex always told me it was my mouth that got me into trouble.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 5th, 2015 at 8:47:10 AM
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Quote: WizardI don't. It is part of the cat and mouse game. It is like going a little slower when you see a cop up ahead.
Gotta love the "stuff we keep to ourselves".
Reminds me of a wintry day in the countryside years ago. The roads were sketchy, and the snow was a flying. A state cruiser behind me for ten miles doing the usual 70 mph. Conditions were too bad for passing, so I didn't want to hold them up there either by doing the "slowing down thing".
Quote: WizardI told her it looked like Walt Disney threw up. She has been holding a grudge over that remark for years.
Good grief.
It ends how it starts.
Nonsense is a very hard thing to keep up. Just ask the Wizard and company.
January 5th, 2015 at 8:51:03 AM
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Quote: darkozAs for the wife stories, I guess that's why I am sitting here typing alone in my bedroom. My ex always told me it was my mouth that got me into trouble.
It's about saying what's on your mind, and listening to the other side, before the "garbage" begins to pile up. Letting the "chips fall".
There's an element of luck, etc, as well. The couples who stay together can't claim it was all about calm thinking, and fate, etc.
Nonsense is a very hard thing to keep up. Just ask the Wizard and company.
January 5th, 2015 at 2:35:28 PM
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Quote: WizardShe has been holding a grudge over that remark for years.
It will be a lifetime, it's in the years phase
now. You committed the cardinal sin, you
questioned her taste. You, a mere man.
She's right to not forgive you. Never
forget this:
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 5th, 2015 at 2:46:04 PM
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Quote: AxelWolf
Casinos will or have done the following.....
They retroactively screw people on promotions.
They have baited AP's to 86 them.
They have denied expired slot tickets.
They will go out of there way to entice you to lose your money.
They have unfairly kicked people out of their rooms.
They have knowingly illegally detained players.
They occasionally unfairly beat players.
They have denied cashing of chips.
They cheat at drawings.
They use slot keys to spy on each other.
ETC.
I've said it many times and believe it to
my core: casinos are evil places. They
prey on us like a hungry animal, they really
believe that once you enter their well spun
web, the gloves are off and what's yours
is soon to be theirs. I hate being there one
more minute then necessary, it gives me
the creeps. Everybody watching everybody,
and the oblivious players like fish in a barrel.
I didn't feel that way 20 years ago, but it's
different now. Everything is bottom line and
it didn't used to be that way.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 5th, 2015 at 3:27:27 PM
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Quote: EvenBobI've said it many times and believe it to
my core: casinos are evil places. They
prey on us like a hungry animal, they really
believe that once you enter their well spun
web, the gloves are off and what's yours
is soon to be theirs. I hate being there one
more minute then necessary, it gives me
the creeps. Everybody watching everybody,
and the oblivious players like fish in a barrel.
I didn't feel that way 20 years ago, but it's
different now. Everything is bottom line and
it didn't used to be that way.
The average vacationer will not experience any of this. It's a fun form of entertainment for reasonable people.
All the horror stories of people killing themselves or losing everything, its rare and it is because them people couldn't control themselves.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
January 5th, 2015 at 3:37:54 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfCasinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
January 5th, 2015 at 3:38:57 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfCasinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
Quote: mickeycrimmAnd there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
After about a year on this board, I think I have finally found my signature. Messrs. Axel and Mickey, may I?
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
January 5th, 2015 at 4:02:49 PM
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Quote: mickeycrimmAnd there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
And there's also no chance you go to disneyland and blow your kids' college fund in a night.
Even a fatass couldn't eat that much in overpriced snacks.
January 5th, 2015 at 4:08:08 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfthey want your money. But so does Disneyland.
Difference being, Disneyland won't let you
sit there while you knowingly bankrupt
yourself at their park. I've read stories
of AP's who got out of the biz because
they couldn't take the ravenous shark
attitude of casinos anymore. Too many
times they saw some poor jerk sit there,
with the full knowledge of the floor, while
he chased his losses till he was almost
destitute. And did not one thing to try
and stop him.
Who does something like that. Evil people,
that's who.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 5th, 2015 at 4:17:33 PM
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Have you ever seen the cost of a hotdog there?Quote: EvenBobDifference being, Disneyland won't let you
sit there while you knowingly bankrupt
.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
January 5th, 2015 at 5:34:23 PM
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Not exactly on-topic, but I don't like Disney World. Too expensive, too crowded, and from what I recall when the kids were much younger, the park attractions themselves were very outdated.
Mrs. Q, however, still likes Disney. She took our older teenagers there for a day while we were in FL just before Christmas. I didn't have to go. Win/Win. (And I'm not sure I want to know how much they spent).
Mrs. Q, however, still likes Disney. She took our older teenagers there for a day while we were in FL just before Christmas. I didn't have to go. Win/Win. (And I'm not sure I want to know how much they spent).
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
January 5th, 2015 at 5:52:49 PM
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The only place you can get free alcohol is in a casino. There's a reason for that.
January 5th, 2015 at 6:05:23 PM
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Quote: RSThe only place you can get free alcohol is in a casino. There's a reason for that.
Not true.
You can finish drinks that people have walked away from in a bar.
January 5th, 2015 at 6:08:13 PM
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Quote: sc15
You can finish drinks that people have walked away from in a bar.
Not in my bar, or any bar I've been
at. That's a big no-no.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 5th, 2015 at 6:21:04 PM
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Quote: EvenBobNot in my bar, or any bar I've been
at. That's a big no-no.
It's kind of like scrounging for credits people left behind on a slot machine.
It's against the rules but you can do it till you're 86ed!
January 5th, 2015 at 7:04:12 PM
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Quote: sc15And there's also no chance you go to disneyland and blow your kids' college fund in a night.
Even a fatass couldn't eat that much in overpriced snacks.
Disneyland wants your money same as the casino
However, Disneyland does not do false advertising.
Disney Ad: Come to the place where everyone has fun.
Disney employee: "How was your stay, sir?"
Patron: "I tried to have fun and I did."
Disney employee: "Fantastic, we'd love to have you back and hope you have fun again."
Casino ad: Come to the place where everyone wins.
Casino employee: "How was your stay, sir?"
Patron: "I tried to win and I did."
Casino employee: "Oh, you tried to win? Did you use any skill when trying like card counting?"
Patron: "Oh, yes. No way you can win consistently otherwise."
Casino employee: "Come with us, sir. Trying to win is not allowed."
Patron: "But the ad says everyone is a winner here."
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 5th, 2015 at 10:41:04 PM
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First, I want to make an addition to Axelwolf's list of things that the casino industry does that I find unethical and just crappy. CHECK CASHING PROMOTIONS. Whether it be a payroll check or some sort of government check including tax refund checks, I find it horrendous that casinos, especially the local type casinos here in Vegas, (stations, Boyd, eastside cannery, and many more) try to entice folks to cash and lose money meant for living expenses. Nothing worse than the father cashing his paycheck on the way home and the money long gone before he gets home to pay the rent or buy food or senior citizens cashing their social security and blowing it all before they pay their bills (I guess SS has now gone 100% electronically so maybe this is no longer an issue, but not for lack of trying by the casino industry). Outrageous.
I know some people will counter with the personal responsibility argument and there is something to that. But I find it outrageous and hypocritical. They run an advertising campaign, you know 1-800 gambler, as if they care, but their actions speak loud and clear. Again how hypocritical.
Now, moving on, despite how predatory I feel the casino industry is, that doesn't mean that anything is fair game. There are activities that some AP's engage in that I think cross the line if not criminally, definitely morally in my opinion. I myself have engaged in some activities like hole-carding that while certainly not illegal, I just don't feel comfortable with, so I ceased doing so.
But, what we are talking about here, doesn't rise to any of those levels in my opinion. I am in complete agreement with Wizard on this one. It's just part of the cat & mouse game that is part of advantage play. I don't feel the slightest bit bad about disguising my bets for whatever reason. :)
I know some people will counter with the personal responsibility argument and there is something to that. But I find it outrageous and hypocritical. They run an advertising campaign, you know 1-800 gambler, as if they care, but their actions speak loud and clear. Again how hypocritical.
Now, moving on, despite how predatory I feel the casino industry is, that doesn't mean that anything is fair game. There are activities that some AP's engage in that I think cross the line if not criminally, definitely morally in my opinion. I myself have engaged in some activities like hole-carding that while certainly not illegal, I just don't feel comfortable with, so I ceased doing so.
But, what we are talking about here, doesn't rise to any of those levels in my opinion. I am in complete agreement with Wizard on this one. It's just part of the cat & mouse game that is part of advantage play. I don't feel the slightest bit bad about disguising my bets for whatever reason. :)
January 5th, 2015 at 11:03:00 PM
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If gambling leads to prostitution, well yes only if the casino $luts up when they get desperate. No sympathy for predators.
I am a robot.
January 6th, 2015 at 12:00:37 AM
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Quote: kewljNow, moving on, despite how predatory I feel the casino industry is, that doesn't mean that anything is fair game. There are activities that some AP's engage in that I think cross the line if not criminally, definitely morally in my opinion.
Absolutely. There are bottom feeding AP's that will
do anything to make a buck, and are proud of it.
They brag about how much money they have,
and strut around, but are no better than the HS
kid with a coat hanger who figured out how to
rip off vending machines.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 6th, 2015 at 10:02:40 AM
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Quote: DeucekiesAfter about a year on this board, I think I have finally found my signature. Messrs. Axel and Mickey, may I?
Sure. I don't have a problem with it, Deucekies.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
July 28th, 2015 at 7:38:56 PM
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Silly
November 24th, 2015 at 1:10:25 PM
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One thing I have found interesting - and still don't know what impact it has - is to buy in for $500 or $1000 - but only use $100 or 200 in chips. For games like 3 card poker, the straights and flushes are so rare, I generally cash out as soon as they hit, so I leave with some of their money, or having only lost a little of mine.
"Those who have no idea what they are doing, genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
November 24th, 2015 at 3:54:58 PM
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Quote: ukaserexOne thing I have found interesting - and still don't know what impact it has - is to buy in for $500 or $1000 - but only use $100 or 200 in chips. For games like 3 card poker, the straights and flushes are so rare, I generally cash out as soon as they hit, so I leave with some of their money, or having only lost a little of mine.
100 a hand at 3cp is like losing a little? We definitely have a different definition of a little.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
November 24th, 2015 at 4:05:57 PM
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I think he means playing at the $5 or $10 level after buying in for $1000.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
November 24th, 2015 at 4:28:18 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistI think he means playing at the $5 or $10 level after buying in for $1000.
Oh lol yeah that makes sense.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
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November 24th, 2015 at 8:34:22 PM
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I don't know the CET formula, so I don't know how much it matters, but it does matter to them how much cash you buy in for. And you seem to get less credit for buying in with cheques rather than cash. There's a cage right there, so I don't know what the difference is, but they smile down on you better for new money. Even if you just got it from the cage out of your previous stake. Something to do with the drop/hold/win formula, I guess.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
November 24th, 2015 at 9:42:53 PM
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Quote: beachbumbabsI don't know the CET formula, so I don't know how much it matters, but it does matter to them how much cash you buy in for. And you seem to get less credit for buying in with cheques rather than cash. There's a cage right there, so I don't know what the difference is, but they smile down on you better for new money. Even if you just got it from the cage out of your previous stake. Something to do with the drop/hold/win formula, I guess.
Cash or chips makes absolutely no difference to most pits. I don't know of any that base anything off total buy-in. It's average bet, time played and the game that make a difference. The only thing buying in for more cash instead of back in with chips will get you is Title 31 tracking faster.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
November 25th, 2015 at 2:05:15 AM
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Quote: Zcore13Cash or chips makes absolutely no difference to most pits. I don't know of any that base anything off total buy-in. It's average bet, time played and the game that make a difference. The only thing buying in for more cash instead of back in with chips will get you is Title 31 tracking faster.
ZCore13
Fair enough, as you would know. I've just had them not bother if I came in with cheques several times, where they were always quick to sign in the cash, so I went to all cash buy-ins. No idea why it matters to them, or even if it does.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
November 25th, 2015 at 5:10:07 AM
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I'm with you, Babs, though I have no reason to doubt Zcore since a) as you said, he would know, and b) what he said makes sense! However, casinos are not always the best at making sense with their policies.Quote: beachbumbabsFair enough, as you would know. I've just had them not bother if I came in with cheques several times, where they were always quick to sign in the cash, so I went to all cash buy-ins. No idea why it matters to them, or even if it does.
Most times I buy-in at the table, the pit wants to know how much and whether it was cash or cheques. I assume they are noting this on their tracking slip/screen. If the buy-in details aren't considered, I wonder why they record them.
I also remember Max Rubin in Comp City advising to always buy-in with cash, not cheques, but that book is 10+ years old now. Personally, I like taking my winnings to the cage and converting them to cash, even if I only have it for a few minutes before I sit at the next table.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
November 25th, 2015 at 5:27:07 AM
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The reason they care if you buy in with cash or cheques is so they can balance the rack. If you want to make sure that you get credit when you come in with cheques make sure to do it for 2-300 in black or more. Oftentimes if you come in with 100 or less or just start betting small denomination chips you won't get an accurate rating.Also in casinos that allow dealers to change $100 or less without approval you should always buy in for $200 or more to make sure your buy in gets recorded.
Happy days are here again
November 25th, 2015 at 6:27:39 AM
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Quote: Zcore13Cash or chips makes absolutely no difference to most pits. I don't know of any that base anything off total buy-in. It's average bet, time played and the game that make a difference. The only thing buying in for more cash instead of back in with chips will get you is Title 31 tracking faster.
ZCore13
How does 'Hold' factor into things?
Recently it has crossed my mind that since I always buy in really big compared to my needs [it's superstition] that this makes my Hold as a player look bad. This affects what kind of offers you get in the future?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 25th, 2015 at 6:50:00 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitHow does 'Hold' factor into things?
Recently it has crossed my mind that since I always buy in really big compared to my needs [it's superstition] that this makes my Hold as a player look bad. This affects what kind of offers you get in the future?
Hold is no factor in rating or promotional offers. The only thing buying in for a large amount of money and playing smaller denominations is going to do is raise suspicions and have someone keep an eye on you more.
Your best chance for better comps than normal is to be pleasant to the Supervisor who is rating you. Chat with him/her. Bet larger when they are around. Play for the dealer when they are around.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
November 25th, 2015 at 6:58:02 AM
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Thanks for the insight, Hunter & Zcore!
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
November 25th, 2015 at 10:09:41 AM
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Quote: JoemanThanks for the insight, Hunter & Zcore!
Yes!
btw why is Hold calculated?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 25th, 2015 at 10:23:04 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitYes!
btw why is Hold calculated?
Hold has value for historical comparison, mostly within ones own casino, but a little bit when comparing to other locations. If my player base stays basically the same and most other factors remain the same, I can compare hold of one game to another since everything is pretty consistent. It's not as easy when the variables of other casinos are mixed in. Higher buy ins, less locals, minimum wager amounts, etc. call all make a difference (although usually slight) on hold percentage.
Drop and win are much more important. Most statistics are much more relevant internally than for comparing to the outside.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
November 26th, 2015 at 11:53:19 AM
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more complicated than I thought ... but thanks!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
