sakonmao
sakonmao
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July 9th, 2013 at 7:54:51 AM permalink
Wizard

I watch a youtube video of yours discussing how it is important to play with your card if you are a player in their rewards/loyalty program. However, I've come across efficient players who are advantage players who don't actually gamble, but play for the comps and perks. They obtain a living playing, redeeming, qualifying their free slot plays and mail offers they get every week/month, free trips, nice hotels, meals, etc, based on ADT, or average daily theoretical.

For a long time I always thought comps were based on loss. After meeting these people, they say it's based on play. So they have told me it is best to play with your card ONLY when you are playing big and playing long minimizing loss. You will then be handsomely rewarded with offers.

I know you have worked in the casino biz for some time, and so you might have some insight in this.


Can you tell me your thoughts on the ADT system, if it is worth being an advantage player today in 2013, living off that lifestyle, playing video poker (100 or 50 play, quick quads) with high returns/payback?

Do you feel this is illegal/inappropriate from a player perspective and a former employee in the business?
What do you know about advantage gambling and those individuals who maximizes their ADT and become high level tiers because of this?
Since you are a math WIZARD, do you know the formula for which casinos calculate your play, your offers, and your tier?
MathExtremist
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July 9th, 2013 at 10:49:09 AM permalink
Quote: sakonmao

if it is worth being an advantage player today in 2013, living off that lifestyle, playing video poker (100 or 50 play, quick quads) with high returns/payback?

Do you feel this is illegal/inappropriate from a player perspective and a former employee in the business?


If you actually have the ability to beat the casino's house-banked games, you also have greater earning potential (and with far better perks and lower financial risk) in a different vocation. If you are such a person, the only reason to be a full-time AP is because you *want* to -- because you would rather beat casino games than earn more money elsewhere.

It's not illegal as long as you're not actually cheating or breaking other laws (by definition). Only you can answer whether it's appropriate. But consider this: suppose you're in your mid-20s and you spend the next 10 years "living the lifestyle" in casinos as a pro gambler. What do you do after, when you're in your mid-30s and you decide that being an AP isn't your life's calling?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
camapl
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July 11th, 2013 at 5:10:07 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

What do you do after, when you're in your mid-30s and you decide that being an AP isn't your life's calling?



Excellent point! Having a job, something to put on a resume, has added value, which is not easy to quantify, over and above your salary and benefits. And it can be very difficult to break (back) into the workforce if you haven't been holding down some sort of gainful employment. Especially if you are like me and do not interview well!

One backup plan could be to set aside enough winnings that could support you for a few years while you learn a trade or get an education in case you do wish to switch professions. This "college fund" could be supplemented during this time by less frequent gaming trips for those exceptional advantage plays.
Expectation is the root of all heartache.
AverageJOE
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July 18th, 2013 at 11:58:37 PM permalink
I had a surveillance report about that kind of advantage play, but lost it with a computer crash.
Else i would give you a copy and to be honest i did not read it all.

What i find interesting is how they play to maintain so much comp and free stuff ...
Like staying on top with out losing to much ...

I fully agree it is advantage play.
In my country comps are forbidden.
AP - It's not that it can't be done, but rather people don't really have a clue as to the level of fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful, let alone get to the level where you can take money out of the casinos on a regular basis. Out of 1,000 people that earnestly try, maybe only one will make it.
Paigowdan
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July 19th, 2013 at 1:07:16 AM permalink
Quote: AverageJOE

[from tagline] AP - It's not that it can't be done, but rather people don't really have a clue as to the level of fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful, let alone get to the level where you can take money out of the casinos on a regular basis. Out of 1,000 people that earnestly try, maybe only one will make it.


People do have a good pulse on what it takes. Some see AP as a "calling," others as an obsession, a fixation. It cannot be reasonable done as a mere hobby or a pastime; to be successful, it has to be a virtual calling, a compulsion to succeed at "that particular gig." There is no question that it is not a legitimate "above board" career in terms of steady hours or pay, social contribution, etc.; from the operator's point of view, it's viewed as parasitic pilferage against legitimate businesses, and is in turn rationalized by many AP's as a black and white "Robin Hood" action - that the casino operators are the parasitic peddlers, and not legitimate and regulated businesses, but that the AP's are the Robin Hoods, of all things. I will say that when you're playing for comps on your real ID, camouflage is out of the question. I will also say that if you're known as an AP, you don't get comps, or even get to play.

A lot of people have studied AP play, and read books from Nathaniel Tilton (The Blackjack Life), and books like Bringing Down the house, and the like. The APs in it smack of compulsion and righteous cause, and in a lot of cases, (but not all), lost a lot of "civilian life functionality" (careers, education, family, etc.) in pursuit of the AP dream. It is clear that if one is serious enough to succeed, it can be an all-consuming pursuit at times, to be good and dedicated, and it hits the career dead end of burn-out very quickly. A lot continue on switching sides, writing books, giving seminars.

People do have a clue of the fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ClarkWGriswold
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July 19th, 2013 at 4:21:23 AM permalink
Who is William Granoff for $1000, Alex.
"I am your average American gambling idiot" - Me
Beethoven9th
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July 19th, 2013 at 6:04:49 AM permalink
Quote: sakonmao

They obtain a living playing, redeeming, qualifying their free slot plays and mail offers they get every week/month, free trips, nice hotels, meals, etc, based on ADT, or average daily theoretical.


Who are these people who supposedly "obtain a living" from free slot play and mail offers? I've never heard of anyone making their living solely from these offers.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
Wizard
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July 19th, 2013 at 8:34:34 AM permalink
Quote: sakonmao

For a long time I always thought comps were based on loss. After meeting these people, they say it's based on play. So they have told me it is best to play with your card ONLY when you are playing big and playing long minimizing loss. You will then be handsomely rewarded with offers.



Comps are mostly based on play. Some places also consider loss. Either way, you should use a player card. There are some cases where you shouldn't. For example, many casinos base offers on the "average trip theoretical loss," especially Harrah's properties. So, let's say you're staying at the Mirage but have a few minutes to kill at Caesars Palace. If you must play, don't use your Harrah's card, because it will trigger a trip, and just a little play will lower your average play per trip, depressing your offers.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AverageJOE
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July 20th, 2013 at 4:40:48 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AverageJOE

[from tagline] AP - It's not that it can't be done, but rather people don't really have a clue as to the level of fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful, let alone get to the level where you can take money out of the casinos on a regular basis. Out of 1,000 people that earnestly try, maybe only one will make it.


People do have a good pulse on what it takes. Some see AP as a "calling," others as an obsession, a fixation. It cannot be reasonable done as a mere hobby or a pastime; to be successful, it has to be a virtual calling, a compulsion to succeed at "that particular gig." There is no question that it is not a legitimate "above board" career in terms of steady hours or pay, social contribution, etc.; from the operator's point of view, it's viewed as parasitic pilferage against legitimate businesses, and is in turn rationalized by many AP's as a black and white "Robin Hood" action - that the casino operators are the parasitic peddlers, and not legitimate and regulated businesses, but that the AP's are the Robin Hoods, of all things. I will say that when you're playing for comps on your real ID, camouflage is out of the question. I will also say that if you're known as an AP, you don't get comps, or even get to play.

A lot of people have studied AP play, and read books from Nathaniel Tilton (The Blackjack Life), and books like Bringing Down the house, and the like. The APs in it smack of compulsion and righteous cause, and in a lot of cases, (but not all), lost a lot of "civilian life functionality" (careers, education, family, etc.) in pursuit of the AP dream. It is clear that if one is serious enough to succeed, it can be an all-consuming pursuit at times, to be good and dedicated, and it hits the career dead end of burn-out very quickly. A lot continue on switching sides, writing books, giving seminars.

People do have a clue of the fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful.



I wrote is at other topic and think it also referring to this topic with a new angle ...

This is based upon what i know and my opinions.
passionate does not cut it ... and does books you are referring to does not cut it ...
You are privileged if you get your hands on does things that never see daylight !!!

I am:
Part time AP or with other words ,,, life time hobby ,,, or i can rephrase it single parent, work and hobby ...
I play, i have a small edge ...

I just wrote to a person who get hes own wheel, huxley ,,, just like my self in the past ...

what are you going to practice with your wheel ?
are you going to practice to set your RC parameters and play so you are more prepared in real ?

or are you going to practice visual ballistic skills ?

you mention that you wanted go all in and become semi or full time professional
to be honest i know two who can and two who does, so it is not common and pretty hard to achieve
i will not mention names, you have to build your own network and see who is who
note i don't mention all does who try ...

to be honest so can i only make one comparison ...

in las vegas based upon what i read, you can earn allot of comps, free dinners, free hotel rooms and so on ... ((( make life more easy as AP )))
it even exist comp advantage play and some who claim that some are making a living on comps ,,, playing around the clock ... ((( what a boring life )))
i even had a surveillance report in the past about the subject ,,, but lost it (computer crash) ...
comps based upon play and not loss ...

Then there is regular AP ,,, they traveling and prepare more then the actuality play.
At least what i understand when it comes to bias.

now you can not expect doing a common year of income ,,, you have to earn more ,,, can you do that ,,, that is the question ...
i would not expect it being a life or life style with glamor ... you should expect the opposite ...

now you don't have Las Vegas and you need work for a living, so can we earn money with out working and test life as AP full time ...
well i been thinking about this ... what would be practical solution ...

i think that in every country you have unemployment money that is a % of your salary if you don't have work ...
is a unemployment insurance

in my country you have to be member and pay for the unemployment insurance for one full year ,,, and have work to be valid to get insurance if you quit or lose your job
you get 80% the first year then after that you get a transfer into a insurance by the government/state and it less ,,, around 60 to 70 % of salary ...

that way you can be home and spend all the time at casinos, traveling and try your new life style ...
then at least you have some insurance for rent, bills and food ,,,

this is how i see you can start and try a life style as full time professional ...

when you have kids you have to think twice about it
make your life circulate around the gaming industries or have a regular work and play on hobby basis ...

in the end it become to be work as any other ...
you read and collect surveillance reports to understand how they think about you and what kind of counter measurements they use against you

traveling and keep contact with your network
fix a contact that can get you permission to enter gaming events from wheel manufactures and different seminarians ((( i have that contact, but i just play for hobby, so no real need for it ))) you just being a representable for that company ...

with other words you have to stay one step further at all times as its your living ...
so i assume many other things circulates around ,,, then just playing ,,,,

this is my opinions

then also comes the day when you grow old
now if you would have work for a living ,,, then you had collect points to how much pension you would get at age 65 ...
the money that should give you a nice time growing old and spend you free time with you child's children, traveling and so on ...

if you go professional AP i assume you have to save money as you would get minimum pension from the state ...
you can Google for you country rules for minimum pension

lets say its 700 Euro and you want around 1400 each mount when you grow old with pension to get decent life style ...
then you have to save 700 Euro x 12 for one year to be sufficient ... but if you have age 65 and are going to live to 95 ,,, then you have 30 years
that sure put things into a new dimension ...

And during this time you are going to make a living on AP.
you can not do it or can you ?

so you have to change or have a better solution for your future if you make it as AP
you win big and you buy a company selling coffe and donuts ...
then you have a goal to get a company that can generate money when you are old and let other work for you ...

what is dream made of ?

AP - It's not that it can't be done, but rather people don't really have a clue as to the level of fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful, let alone get to the level where you can take money out of the casinos on a regular basis. Out of 1,000 people that earnestly try, maybe only one will make it.


Cheers
AP - It's not that it can't be done, but rather people don't really have a clue as to the level of fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful, let alone get to the level where you can take money out of the casinos on a regular basis. Out of 1,000 people that earnestly try, maybe only one will make it.
wroberson
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July 23rd, 2013 at 1:22:12 PM permalink
I think it's a good idea to learn the games before you play them for any real cash. It's in the player's advantage to do so. As for the rest, it's not a hijack, but a real life story of someone trying to make a life out of it. Sometimes I think it would be easier just to lay 100 bucks on the best pitcher taking the mound on a daily basis, but sports betting is not my best bet.

I've tried seeing if I can make a sustainable lifestyle out of gambling. The 1st issue I ran into was not having a job and traveling to Las Vegas to gamble. Right there my monthly 3000 dollar wins were cut down by the cost of travel and the cost of living. 700 for the next trip and 800 a month for living and I'm back to even. I really enjoyed it, but all it took was one losing trip for me to get to work.

The next 2 times I tried I was working. I had a small starting roll and managed to keep it up for a few months on both occasions. Once again after the 1st loss, I took a break from it each time and just spent my time working. After some time Monday morning quarterbacking, I decided the casinos in Illinois are not a place where you can get fair games and because I was stuck with roulette, I figured I would just save my money for a trip to Vegas where I can get a decent and fair card game.

I've been to Vegas 5 times since 2009 and each time I was a red chipper. I've had less than 500 bucks to gamble with. For me it was just about enjoying life as a whole. Of course I wanted to win as much as possible and always try to win enough to pay for the trip and win enough to pay for the next one. I've tended to hit the same wall. I get up like 500 bucks in the 1st two days which covers the trip. and then run into a bad deck of cards where I can't even get ahead the day before going home and I go home either broke or with less money than I came with.

There's no doubt I am having a very enjoyable life, but the next trip I am saving hard. I only work 3 days for a total of 13 hours and it's minimum wage. Original expectations were for a 2k bankroll. When I planned the trip I have 34 weeks to pay for the trip and save for the bankroll and other than wasting $150.00 playing the lotto and powerball, I've done a great job for the 1st 17 weeks.

With the slow summer delivery season, my average weekly bank deposit is falling slightly. I've paid for my next trip all in advance. I've made a dent in my credit card debt and my car insurance is paid in full until November. I'm rethinking things a bit and it's looking good. I can pay off both cards, renew the insurance and 1000 for a bankroll. While I was hoping to get in on some 2 deck blackjack at 50 bucks a hand, 20 units is not enough, so I'm looking at 25 a hand and 40 units. One of the cards can be used to get cash, but getting back home with all the cards pay off and broke is still an improvement over my state as of January this year. Broke and 1400 in debt. I enjoy the lifestyle. I don't lose so much money, and the total loses between 1994 and 2013 do not add up to the total wins of 1993.

Back on topic.
Buffering...
FleaStiff
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July 23rd, 2013 at 4:07:24 PM permalink
No one really "makes a living" at free comps... unless they are retired and have nothing much else to do but milk the comps cows.

Comps are indeed based on "play"... action. What you actually risked, not what you talked about or had hidden up in your room or in your sock. What you put at risk. Most places then add sweeteners to the comp value: if you lost a good deal or if you won an exceptional amount, your comps will be raised slightly just to keep you happy. Otherwise its mainly in the card and the computer simply because no one has the authority to do anything now except through the computer system.

Play poker 14 hours a day or Bingo all day long or Video Poker eight to ten hours a day? Fine, you can eke out a bit of a sweetened comp package. Have an out of town address, great. It won't fool them for long. Have an un-linked spousal card so as to alternate free rooms... yeah that works. I've been on the receiving end of several free room stays under deals like that, most of them in Biloxi, MS.

Nothing gets by the casinos watchful eyes and computers. Nothing. It may take a few months to be noticed, but nothing really gets by them. Want your final day to be on a "niece's" players card, that is fine. She will get a sweetened mailer for a few months. The casino doesn't mind, but they are not fooled by it. They may be surprised when the computer reveals that she really is your niece but they are not fools. In the more likely situation that she is "sort of" a niece, they will still sweeten her comps but not deduct yours. They want to keep people happy and they do it. And if you are a relatively new gambler, they may even be willing to "invest" in you more than they might otherwise invest in a player with equal action to yours. They want to buy your admiration and loyalty. They tend to be good at their jobs!
AverageJOE
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July 24th, 2013 at 9:40:45 AM permalink
Very well written FleaStiff ,,, thanks ...
AP - It's not that it can't be done, but rather people don't really have a clue as to the level of fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful, let alone get to the level where you can take money out of the casinos on a regular basis. Out of 1,000 people that earnestly try, maybe only one will make it.
Scan
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October 4th, 2013 at 3:35:08 AM permalink
First what kind of "living" would a person have with casino comps.

I have seen a lot of these comp experts over the years. Many are retires with lots of time on their hands that will dedicate hours of grinding to get a $15 buffet comps. There are also the younger comp hustlers roaming around, these guys are doing the bogus disability thing and scamming the Social Security system or Workers comp. if you ask them what they do for a living they claim they are "professional gamblers".

Either way none are making a living in the casino
AlanMendelson
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October 4th, 2013 at 4:19:53 AM permalink
I just discovered this thread because of the new post above. And this post caught my attention:

Quote: Wizard

many casinos base offers on the "average trip theoretical loss," especially Harrah's properties. So, let's say you're staying at the Mirage but have a few minutes to kill at Caesars Palace. If you must play, don't use your Harrah's card, because it will trigger a trip, and just a little play will lower your average play per trip, depressing your offers.



I realize that the Wizard made this post several years ago, but since then the situation might have changed. I have to emphasize "might."

About a year or two ago, I was told that Total Rewards has a way of identifying potential high rollers who just do short "drop in" visits at its casinos. For example, you insert your card and play two or three pulls on a $100 slot machine. Do that and the program identifies you as a potential high roller who just came into the casino perhaps to meet someone for dinner or to "check out the place." And a player who did that would likely get some generous offers.

Now, if you are routinely a 25-cent slot player and tried this "$100 trick" it's not going to work. It can "work" if you walk into a TR casino, get a new card for the first time, and then just play a couple of pulls on a $100 machine. That combination -- new player, new card, just a couple of pulls on a $100 machine -- would trigger a high roller alert.

The other point I want to make comes from my personal experience.

For much of 2011 and early 2012 I was a very frequent visitor to Caesars Palace but my play for each trip was limited to a certain fixed amount. Over the course of a year it totaled up to be high enough to have four times the points needed for 7Stars. But in mid-2012 the value of my offers was cut by about 70-percent. During that same time, a friend of mine who had about the same number of tier points and annual play visited Caesars only a few times during the year and his offer value was not cut and was even increased. Why would my offers be reduced and his offers be increased when we had the same number of tier points?

Well, the explanation I got was that while my level of tier points came from many different visits, his similar level of tier points came from fewer visits making him more valuable since he played more per visit.

This year the same thing appears to have happened with me at Harrah's Rincon, another Total Rewards property. I was dilligent in taking advantage of the many daily and weekly free play offers, and while my tier score this year is already above 691,000 I have seen the value of my offers at Rincon cut by more than half. Again I beleive that while my total play is high, the value of my play per visit is low plus I've taken advantage of "too many" free play offers.
DRich
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October 4th, 2013 at 8:00:18 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

... I beleive that while my total play is high, the value of my play per visit is low plus I've taken advantage of "too many" free play offers.



Caesars/Harrahs still ranks players by ADT (Average Daily Theoretical). It is easy to calculate your ADT for poker at Caesar's. Just multiply the points earned for the day times ten to get your coin in. Multiply that by the hold of the poker game you are playing. If you earned 2500 tier points on a 8/5 bonus poker game your ADT would be $25,000 * (1-.9917) = $207.60. Take the average of these daily numbers and that is what they believe you are worth per visit.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Boz
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October 4th, 2013 at 8:07:21 AM permalink
Alan, I see this all the time in AC where I know a couple of 7 Star players who visit 50 weekends a year and both make their 7 Star but bitch and complain about others including Diamond players who get more in comps and offers. They feel they are more valuable to the casino, but if they looked at it, they cost the casino far more than the guy who plays triple what they do on each visit and only visits 6 times a year. Its simple math but players never want to think someone is more valuable to the casino than they are.
AlanMendelson
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October 4th, 2013 at 8:13:14 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Caesars/Harrahs still ranks players by ADT (Average Daily Theoretical). It is easy to calculate your ADT for poker at Caesar's. Just multiply the points earned for the day times ten to get your coin in. Multiply that by the hold of the poker game you are playing. If you earned 2500 tier points on a 8/5 bonus poker game your ADT would be $25,000 * (1-.9917) = $207.60. Take the average of these daily numbers and that is what they believe you are worth per visit.



You have to remember to keep track of your points as you play them (at end of each session) because of the bonus points. I frequently put on 2500 tier points in a day so I get the 5,000 bonus points.

But as I said, I make many visits with a lot of play over many visits. And the key now is to have fewer visits with more play per visit.
AlanMendelson
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October 4th, 2013 at 8:16:45 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

Alan, I see this all the time in AC where I know a couple of 7 Star players who visit 50 weekends a year and both make their 7 Star but bitch and complain about others including Diamond players who get more in comps and offers. They feel they are more valuable to the casino, but if they looked at it, they cost the casino far more than the guy who plays triple what they do on each visit and only visits 6 times a year. Its simple math but players never want to think someone is more valuable to the casino than they are.



Since I try to maximize my offers with limited coin in, I don't think I am very valuable to them.
1arrowheaddr
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October 4th, 2013 at 8:33:10 AM permalink
When I first played FPDW at the Palms, they sent me a very generous offer with free nights and comp dollars etc. when they realized I only played FPDW the freebies stopped. Now I get offers for $75 weeknights. The same thing happened at Stations. Played 10 hours of FPDW in two days at Fiesta Rancho and I got tons of multiplier days and free room offers from all Station properties except Red Rock and Green Valley Ranch. Two trips to Las Vegas later I am no mailed.

They over offer when first play at a casino to keep you coming back until they determine your long term value.
DRich
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October 4th, 2013 at 8:35:54 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

... And the key now is to have fewer visits with more play per visit.



That is definitely the way to maximize benefits at Caesar's properties.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
slackyhacky
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October 5th, 2013 at 11:12:58 AM permalink
Quote: ClarkWGriswold

Who is William Granoff for $1000, Alex.



Who is he?
Wizard
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January 30th, 2014 at 9:37:35 AM permalink
I busted the post answering the above question. The purpose of this forum is not to reveal personal information about others, even non-forum members.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
mickeycrimm
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January 30th, 2014 at 9:41:52 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I busted the post answering the above question. The purpose of this forum is not to reveal personal information about others, even non-forum members.



Sorry.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
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