DI TEAMS?
Quote: Pinit2winitJust moved to N Las vegas and looking for a team or group for fun/ testing luck. Looking to get more into di and meet some new people. In it for the win!
Welcome to the forum, Pinit. Chances are you're going to want to look for Private Messages; it will be a red or blue envelope on the black menu bar above. Click on that and you'll be able to send and receive if you like. OTOH, someone may respond publicly.
Meanwhile, DI is a controversial topic here over many threads. You may want to look at the archives for some vigorous discussion about it, dice setting, and other related issues. Enjoy!
AxisPowerCraps
Quote: WizardJust to warn you, DI is met with a lot of skepticism here, especially by me. My advice is send Ahigh a private message. He can put you in touch with the faithful.
Yes please save everyone the brain cells of arguing about whether or not it works.
Go to axis power craps forum would be my advice. I think Super Rick has a forum. I have one too, I just don't post there any longer as it's a lost cause trying to AP craps.
That may be you're first mistake.Quote: Pinit2winitJust moved to N Las vegas
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I'll give the benefit of doubt and believe this is a legitimate post and not some attempt to ruffle forum feathers.
So I'm Just curious.....
what type of work do you do?
What's DI background? Classes? Practice? "educational" Books?
why would someone such as yourself choose DI over all the other legitimate AP options?
I get why some old timers won't give up the DI fantasy. They were probably hooked on craps before or soon after all the DI hype. You know, before the all the slow motion videos, back before everyone knew better.
I should probably stay out of it, I don't need more AP competition.
You're young there is still hope for you, but I get the feeling you won't change your mind no matter what.
You can follow down the path of the Rob Singers and system bettors of the world, or take the advice of guys like the Wizard and successful proven AP's. I guarantee if you choose the first path you'll end up wasting time, money and possibly worst. Many DI's end up with an obsession or addiction.
No one has ever proven an advantage using DI. All evidence point to it being a big fantasy.
Read dicesitters history, he's someone with his own table, years of practice, a "good shot" yet he still doesn't seem to have an advantage. You have smart, very determined, dedicated guys like Ahigh who have all the advanced equipment and means.You can follow his journey and see how impractical, improbable and IMO impossible this will be, especially if you lack a table. Even if you were somehow super special and could influence the dice ever so slightly. Do you have the proper bankroll?
Craps is the only casino game where your fate is solely in the hand of the player/shooter so try your best.
Of course the casinos don't believe in DI which is why I got thrown out of NYNY and MGM and Bellagio when I got lucky. Yeah it was just luck. But they told me to leave anyway.
A team? I don't think there are enough true DIs in the world to create a team.
If your a mathematician by definition you can't believe in DI.
Quote: MrVYou'll have better luck trying to herd cats than you will trying to control dem bones.
Thanks for the good laugh, V; I needed it. And I don't think many on here feel the need to argue that it doesn't work.
Quote: Pinit2winitWow, first let me say thanks to all of you who responded :O. Even wizard!! I've see probably all of your stuff. Anyways, axelwolf, yes this was serious and I'm military I chose this base with a selection program so my wife can continue her schooling. I'm 27 and this was no troll post. Honestly I have reservations about DI myself but If you or anyone else had free time to go out and play a few and I happened to become an advantage player with the help of some of you I would consider this post a success. I am not buying into the whole DI class or anything of that nature yet I'm just exploring all options of craps. I'm not in it to win for the big time although I believe everyone here wouldn't kind being apart of the next record breaking attempt. Hah. Well age is no issue. Im not just a young gun looking for cash. I enjoy the game of craps and want to play the best I can with any advantage possible. If anyone on here is in vegas though and would have some free time let me know in a messege. My wife is going home to visit for the weekend so I have all this weekend free! Woo-hoo. Thanks again all who read! (Cough wizard!) Keep on!
Sure. I haven't met a single person in my, now five year long search, for an advantage player.
Recently, Phil Ivey paid $100 to have the dice passed to me because he admired my shooting and verbally implied that there was a $100 benefit to getting the dice to me because I could shooter better than other people at the table.
I am not an advantage player. I have never been an advantage player. People tell me that I am an advantage player (for example dealers).
There are plenty of dealers who have never even seen me lose a single time.
And yet, I am not an advantage player.
I know many people who think that they ARE advantage players.
They are not. None of them. Not that I KNOW of.
In every single case, it's clear to see for someone looking that they are not.
Phil Ivey has the resources to hire a shooter. He lost $290,000 on one throw of the dice when a female friend of his was shooting.
If he were an advantage player, he wouldn't bet on everyone around the table.
As a GENERAL RULE, people who CLAIM to be AP's in craps bet small enough that it's easy to see that if they are AP's they are stupid for betting so small.
The truth is that they are not that stupid. They just aren't as honest with themselves as I am.
I could easily put together a list of 20 people who THINK that I am an AP.
I could sell classes.
I could sell software.
I could convince people that it were real.
If I were willing to lie. If I had no morals. If I had no principles.
I could do that.
I would also be giving up living in the real world.
I do pretend while I am playing because it is fun.
You will never hear me be an ass and tell people who are trying so hard that it's a lost cause.
It is fun to pretend.
I hope that this helps!
We are making those games.
You can go to G2E and see them and play them here in a few days.
Google search "VEGAS 2047" for the pinball game we showed last year.
This year we are showing "KAT" but we have not yet released all of the details.
KAT is an arcade-style video game with the same math model as Vegas 2047 pinball. You are a cat.
Quote: ontariodealersuggested team names... the cubs, the clippers, the maple leafs
Hockey returned to conscious thought only two days ago, and my cornflakes are already getting s#$% upon.
Quote: Pinit2winitWell ahigh if you ever want to grab a drink and throw some dice (win /lose whatever) let me know :)
I play when I need a break, but I usually drive for 5 minutes, play for 30 minutes and drive back. I have very easy access to Silverton and Mandalay Bay who are the main benefactors to my office location being so close to their tables.
I might be able to let you know when and where I'm going, but I am very whimsical and often don't even know myself until a few minutes before I show up at a table.
Quote: Pinit2winitI feel you. Wife and kid so I can sneak off once in a while but im 5 from aliante. I can usually plan out a weekend in advance though. Aliante has been ice cold to me recently.
I have never been to Alien Taste before.
Quote: Dicenor33Craps became very popular now days, sometimes it takes forever to try your shot. Even if you'll have a good roll how do you know that you have an advantage? You might be winning due to the variance. Looking for a perfect shot is a creative process, other than that don't expect any huge wins.
I don't believe in DI, but I do believe in math. If you record your rolls every session, it wouldn't be too difficult to determine how far away you are from expectation -- not from a $$$ point of view, but from what the dice actually land on.
Quote: AhighPinball and arcade games are where you can find advantage playable games that leverage a player's above-average hand-to-eye coordination to achieve AP.
We are making those games.
You can go to G2E and see them and play them here in a few days.
Google search "VEGAS 2047" for the pinball game we showed last year.
This year we are showing "KAT" but we have not yet released all of the details.
KAT is an arcade-style video game with the same math model as Vegas 2047 pinball. You are a cat.
Do casino games have to follow/consider ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act, when they are created/approved? Have game makers been sued under the ADA?
I was thinking about this issue when I was watching a bunch of elderly people compete in a monopoly money booth promotion, 5 names drawn and a winner take all prize. I can't really remember any casino floor game that really requires physical skill to win. Even the slots that want you to rapidly touch the screen I think are just illusions and the outcome isn't dependent on how fast you touch the screen.
This isn't going to answer you're question, but if the skill game has a minimum of a 75% payback, no matter how terrible you play, there isn't a legitimate lawsuit. from what I understand their pinball is set up so no matter what you do you're average payback will be 75% or greater.Quote: zoobrewDo casino games have to follow/consider ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act, when they are created/approved? Have game makers been sued under the ADA?
I was thinking about this issue when I was watching a bunch of elderly people compete in a monopoly money booth promotion, 5 names drawn and a winner take all prize. I can't really remember any casino floor game that really requires physical skill to win. Even the slots that want you to rapidly touch the screen I think are just illusions and the outcome isn't dependent on how fast you touch the screen.
Quote: AxelWolfThis isn't going to answer you're question, but if the skill game has a minimum of a 75% payback, no matter how terrible you play, there isn't a legitimate lawsuit. from what I understand their pinball is set up so no matter what you do you're average payback will be 75% or greater.
That and the player can use a strategy that involves not integrating skill into the resolution of the bet. In this case, the bet for an unskilled player can still be the most compelling gamble in the casino. Especially if you have specific risk amounts and target goals.
It's designed to offer the perfect system to any system player: a single bet.
ADA is not an issue.
We have patents pending on these technologies including the ability for the player to disable the effect of skill on the resolution of the wager. I think I recently read that at least one other competitor (I forgot who it was) also realized that options could be made to enable games to abide by laws that forbid gambling (which we also do and have been doing for some time).
It's really designed to be configurable for ANY placement whether it needs to be full gambling or full skill or anything in between.
Quote: zoobrewDo casino games have to follow/consider ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act, when they are created/approved? Have game makers been sued under the ADA?
I was thinking about this issue when I was watching a bunch of elderly people compete in a monopoly money booth promotion, 5 names drawn and a winner take all prize. I can't really remember any casino floor game that really requires physical skill to win. Even the slots that want you to rapidly touch the screen I think are just illusions and the outcome isn't dependent on how fast you touch the screen.
It's an absolutely GREAT way to destroy the fun of the game. And it takes forever.
Listen, I made a CONCERTED effort to beat the casino one year, and I succeeded. I did all the work and I came out as much in a year as I could in a day of how I bet now. It was a TON of work, it annoyed a LOT of dealers, it wasn't that fun, most people just SCOFFED at the IDEA of it, AND did I say IT WAS NOT FUN?!
Look: even if AP craps is real, it's bull$h1T to try it yourself and a good way to drive yourself and others close to you insane.
We literally made our games to satisfy the demands of people who want to turn hand-to-eye coordination into a living, and so far, I gotta tell you, there are 500 people who believe themselves to be a DI for every one person that sees that you can AP the games we are making now from hand-to-eye coordination.
Also, I don't get a lot of craps players asking questions about our game because I think that our game really makes it clear how skilled you are with hand-to-eye coordination, and some of these jokers who think that they can throw the dice are so far off in fantasy land it is LAUGHABLE.
You can say what you want about me and what I do with the dice, but I guarantee you that I can throw the dice with precision as good as the best: the problem is that it doesn't matter one iota.
Quote: AhighYou can say what you want about me and what I do with the dice, but I guarantee you that I can throw the dice with precision as good as the best: the problem is that it doesn't matter one iota.
Do you get many "dead cat bounces" when you shoot precisely, and if so, does it ever seem to matter?
Quote: MrVDo you get many "dead cat bounces" when you shoot precisely, and if so, does it ever seem to matter?
My shots are all over you tube. I mean, in general, nobody truly has a grasp on these things. It's just guesswork IMO.
The only thing I could suggest would be try to minimize the energy remaining after the first bounce. Maybe that's what you mean by dead cat?
A good analysis might even look at enumerating all sorts of "types" of throws and trying to categorize the data based on these enumerations to look for patterns.
Once a "type" of landing can be established and recognized by a computer, you could have the computer train you to throw for that type of bounce.
There are lots of ways to dig further into investigating. If Phil Ivey wanted to hire me for a million dollars a year, it might be worth looking deeper. Even then I wouldn't be able to put more than ten hours a week into it in good faith, so it'd have to be a part time gig.
But I think I'm done on that one.
Moving on....
C:\> NANOTECH.EXE
???Quote: Ahigh
We literally made our games to satisfy the demands of people who want to turn hand-to-eye coordination into a living, and so far, I gotta tell you, there are 500 people who believe themselves to be a DI for every one person that sees that you can AP the games we are making now from hand-to-eye coordination.
"We literally made our games to satisfy the demands of people who want to turn hand-to-eye coordination into a living"
Casinos really dislike this idea. I honestly believe once(if) skill games become popular, it's probably going to be the games that are designed so no one has +EV. Skill will probably be a small factor. This it probably what direction casinos will want to go in.
Possibly they might entertain the Idea of something with a linked bonus pool that can become player positive where people compete sporadically.
Quote: AhighThe only thing I could suggest would be try to minimize the energy remaining after the first bounce. Maybe that's what you mean by dead cat?
Here is one man's explanation and analysis of the so-called DCB .
It seems to me that were one in fact able to influence the dice, this shot, properly executed, would have the greatest chance of providing an advantage.
For that one throw, perhaps, but the frequency is so low that it'd be unlikely to be the most effective technique. I've thrown a handful of (unintentional) dead-cat bounce shots in my lifetime where one of the dice sticks to the table and stop dead. Twice I've thrown shots where both did, once at the Golden Nugget and once at Caesars.Quote: MrVHere is one man's explanation and analysis of the so-called DCB .
It seems to me that were one in fact able to influence the dice, this shot, properly executed, would have the greatest chance of providing an advantage.
The real problem with attempting to hone an ability to intentionally throw the dice that way is it's not a valid roll off the back wall. If a shooter does develop the supernatural ability to make the dice not bounce when they land, the stick will simply call no-roll and send them back (or take them away). In other words, if you're looking to invest hundreds of hours developing a profitable skill, that ain't it. If you have the physical dexterity needed to control the dice with such precision, the only way to profit from it is to develop a shot that looks valid to the stickperson. It has to bounce and/or roll off the back wall in order for you to be able to profitably (that is, repeatedly) deploy it in a casino.
Quote: MrVHere is one man's explanation and analysis of the so-called DCB .
It seems to me that were one in fact able to influence the dice, this shot, properly executed, would have the greatest chance of providing an advantage.
If he is a man, and not a fictitious creation of ANOTHER man, how would we know?
I prefer to give credibility to people, not internet renditions of such.
This "mad professor" does not have his own unique identity in the real world that I am aware of.
Frank Scoblete would be a better and more trusted resource as we at least know who he is.
I think MathExtremist is another that I would value input from.
But the "professor" --- *meh*
Hey, you are talking to "V" here, he could be talking about throwing a tabby and a siamese down the table? j/kQuote: AhighThe only thing I could suggest would be try to minimize the energy remaining after the first bounce. Maybe that's what you mean by dead cat?
Quote: petroglyphHey, you are talking to "V" here, he could be talking about throwing a tabby and a siamese down the table? j/k
Quote: AhighIt's an absolutely GREAT way to destroy the fun of the game. And it takes forever.
Listen, I made a CONCERTED effort to beat the casino one year, and I succeeded. I did all the work and I came out as much in a year as I could in a day of how I bet now. It was a TON of work, it annoyed a LOT of dealers, it wasn't that fun, most people just SCOFFED at the IDEA of it, AND did I say IT WAS NOT FUN?!
Look: even if AP craps is real, it's bull$h1T to try it yourself and a good way to drive yourself and others close to you insane.
We literally made our games to satisfy the demands of people who want to turn hand-to-eye coordination into a living, and so far, I gotta tell you, there are 500 people who believe themselves to be a DI for every one person that sees that you can AP the games we are making now from hand-to-eye coordination.
Also, I don't get a lot of craps players asking questions about our game because I think that our game really makes it clear how skilled you are with hand-to-eye coordination, and some of these jokers who think that they can throw the dice are so far off in fantasy land it is LAUGHABLE.
You can say what you want about me and what I do with the dice, but I guarantee you that I can throw the dice with precision as good as the best: the problem is that it doesn't matter one iota.
The only ones making money off of the DI thing is the guys that are selling their BS.
All of the slow-motion videos shows what really happen when the dice hit the tables!
That is where the discussion should end!
Is there anybody you know in these videos?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0rAh1ug2Mk&list=UUUJo96xngJwaqh8rIk2whng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqiptZZotMc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzXc2PXS114&index=12&list=TLPhC1SU9dvTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k467uPlLn3A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzXc2PXS114&index=12&list=TLPhC1SU9dvTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkU458iCDiY&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hheh7c6J77Y&index=34&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOOULZHKNo0&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6NaIs8y_hE&index=37&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZf3jbjie0&list=UUfDRf2L1rCEgYtGFlS_z9ag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-R8XYUjhs&list=PL29EB7437F6533C12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68pu1F0D_9g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_wQN7MELc
This guy found 172 videos on throwing the dice or dice control and put them all in one spot for your viewing pleasure and he surely saved me a lot of work! Just page down on the right side to see all of the videos he found.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MrqyVrQWck&list=PL57YTXgE9UrKJJZsOGpdaFhWAEETRt-rU
Lets not forget the one guy that had the best set-up for dice control, Aaron Hightower who went the extra mile to try to prove that dice control either work or it didn't. I have to give him a high-five for all of the work he put into it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2QS26ppbc8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBJwLtAORa0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSfu5QDDVA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM3qDV9Lz3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTzwChYv0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni-uMB17x4I
Quote: MrVDo you get many "dead cat bounces" when you shoot precisely, and if so, does it ever seem to matter?
If a casino were to follow the strict interpretation of a legal throw in Nevada, a dead cat bounce would not be a legal throw.
The Nevada Gaming Commission is on the record saying a legal throw is this:
1. Dice must travel in the air (yes a dead cat bounce does this)
2. Dice must hit the table surface at least once (yes a dead cat bounce does this)
3. Dice must hit the back wall (does a dead cat bounce do this?)
and a stacked shot where the top dice stops the bottom die from rolling is also not a legal throw.
Quote: AlanMendelsonIf a casino were to follow the strict interpretation of a legal throw in Nevada, a dead cat bounce would not be a legal throw.
The Nevada Gaming Commission is on the record saying a legal throw is this:
1. Dice must travel in the air (yes a dead cat bounce does this)
2. Dice must hit the table surface at least once (yes a dead cat bounce does this)
3. Dice must hit the back wall (does a dead cat bounce do this?)
and a stacked shot where the top dice stops the bottom die from rolling is also not a legal throw.
I have not, even one single time, seen a single other person besides myself pull off the stacked shot.
This is a shot that does get people's attention no matter if one die stop dead or not. When they both travel through the air like they are stuck together like glue, it's different. And if you threw this way every single time, no matter how they bounce after landing (I argue the outcome is very random) they aren't going to like it just because it's so freaking weird to look at.
All of these shots, though, and I can deliver them are just cool to look at. The only value would be if you wanted to use the APPEARANCE that you know what you're doing to encourage some big gambler to tip you.
The biggest tip I have ever received from a player was $500 and that was for PASSING the dice, not shooting them! (He won all-tall for 100 each at Cosmo - $24,600 payout).
If you announce you are going to hit the hard 8 and you use a stack shot to hit the hard 8 you are going to have trouble.
If you line up your stack shot properly using the hardways set but you are hitting different number combinations who is to say it isn't anything but a random shot?
At the Rio I was expecting someone to tell me that both dice must hit the back wall but no one said anything to me, perhaps because I threw my stacked shot to the corner where one die was on the bottom at the wall, and the top die bounced off the wall. That might appear as "close enough."
So to recount the motions of the dice:
Die A hits the table at the back wall.
Die B on top of Die A hits the wall and bounces off onto the table.
That differs from the NGC definition.
Meanwhile, at Caesars Palace they don't care if your dice hit the back wall -- just so that they get close to the back wall.
Maybe I will if I can't find a good demo.
I can do a good stack shot.
I might see how many clean stack shots in a row I can do.
When I first started a stack shot was, like dealers trying to drop a chip and have it bounce up on top of their stack, a very remote chance to get it to work.
I think I might be able to do four in a row these days in less than 15 minutes. But I don't know my hit/miss rate as I haven't really done any stats.
Just getting them to stick together is not that easy.
Quote: AhighJust getting them to stick together is not that easy.
Not that I would recommend it, but hypothetically if you have a cool beverage with condensation on the side, or a glass of water with you at the table, you could get a finger or two wet, and then pick up the dice and dampen them, then stick them together for the throw.
Never tried it, never will, but I would guess the water might promote them sticking together a bit, and it would be invisible and evaporate very quickly (adios, incriminating evidence).
Ever hear of anyone trying this, or getting caught for "cheating" (it would be cheating) for doing this?
I never did a video of it -- unlike my dice sliding video which is on YouTube.
I really didn't practice it much at home (I throw on a bed) but I just found that I could throw the dice together using a soft throw. It's the soft throw that helps limit rotation. You have to be next to the stick and you can't do it on a long table.
Quote: MrVHere is one man's explanation and analysis of the so-called DCB .
It seems to me that were one in fact able to influence the dice, this shot, properly executed, would have the greatest chance of providing an advantage.
There is some confusing (even conflicting) terminology in the 'Four Forces'!
Forward Speed and Rotational Speed.
The majority of shooters use reverse-motion in their throws. (the same website has a page on adding forward-motion with a reverse-motion throw, however the author doesn't call it same).
How is a shooter able to control reverse motion, while the motion is taking pace just as the bounce occurs?
The likelihood of short throws (and seven-outs) is less-controllable with reverse motion.
All the other terms/descriptions are secondary to the effect of reversing the direction of the dice in mid-air (and as they hit the table).
The key is to limit the bounce after they hit the table, and also to limit the
effect of the alligator board.
There are shots which take away the back wall affect and their are shots which
limit the bounce after the hit the table, the problem is to have a shot that can
do both.
I have worked with the stack at home for hours and hours, but it is not even close
to being as effective as a couple of other shots are in terms of repeating
certain numbers or extending the SRR. But it does look cool.
dicesetter
Quote: MrVHere is one man's explanation and analysis of the so-called DCB .
It seems to me that were one in fact able to influence the dice, this shot, properly executed, would have the greatest chance of providing an advantage.
I personally can do this about 50% of the time or better, and you are correct. This is the best way to influence the dice. The secret to this is to find a table where they installed the rubber diamonds upside down so the flat part is at the bottom instead of the top of the table. One table that I know is that way off the top of my head is Harrah's Laughlin. I throw the dice very softly to limit forward momentum with a lot of back spin. Unlike the GTC method I use a much lower angle, more like 30 to 35 degrees. And I look to land the dice about a half inch in front of the wall instead of at the pass line like most people do. the dice will make about a half a revolution touch the back wall and die. It's not easy. It's taken me about three years to kind of half way perfect it. If your dice are splattering all over the place it's a random roll no matter how you throw them. The way I throw is more wrist and less elbow than most people do.
Quote: MrVNot that I would recommend it, but hypothetically if you have a cool beverage with condensation on the side, or a glass of water with you at the table, you could get a finger or two wet, and then pick up the dice and dampen them, then stick them together for the throw.
Never tried it, never will, but I would guess the water might promote them sticking together a bit, and it would be invisible and evaporate very quickly (adios, incriminating evidence).
Ever hear of anyone trying this, or getting caught for "cheating" (it would be cheating) for doing this?
swim up craps . . .
