The demise of DI as we know it

Quote:

irish, wrote
$&^$$

I'm not sure the link will work, but it's this month's digital Casino Player mag. Go to page 24.
http://digital.casinoplayer.com/publication/?i=223806

While I'm not a big fan of charting myself, I find it galling that Scobe, *&%*%$, so often, has the nerve to write such crap. For those offended, write Casino Player and complain.

Quote:

irish, wrote
Here's a sample from Scobe's article....

One Internet craps player who fancies himself a gambling expert coined the term “See a Horn, Bet a Horn.” He firmly believed and strongly advocated to his small click (sic) of gullible readers that charting/tracking random decisions works because, “Dice don’t have a memory but they have a history.”

I want you to remember that Scobe begged Heavy to let him on this forum after he jumped ship from the Golden Girls and then complained when he was denied.

Quote:

Heavy, wrote
The thing is, $&^^^% thinks if he tells this lie long enough everyone will believe it. I have never advocated playing a "see a horn - bet a horn" strategy (even though I do play it from time to time myself). And how can you argue with "the dice don't have a memory but they do have a history?" Sigh. Again, who cares. I know how to stop his silliness, but really, it would only draw more attention to him and that's probably what he wants in the end..

Quote: superrick

The demise of DI as we know it
There comes a time in everything life that it simple dies. Are we seeing that now with everybody that believes in being a DI?

Did the DI thing OD on all of the fiction that they wrote? Was there a slow poisoning of what they were preaching?

We now see their great fiction writers writing about AP slot play, you know where you take you free slot play and turn it into cash, by just getting lucky playing some stupid slot machine that you feel is lucky.
No it doesn't have anything to do with skill, because if it did you would be playing video poker!
Now days on one of the DI boards they are reading about the great fiction writers lucky slot play.

Well lets get down to the pure nitty gritty part of this post. There are guys that are always sending me post from other boards, maybe they feel like they were cheated or they were called names for asking a simple question, but what ever it was it just doesn't matter!

Now you have to remember that these quotes are coming from a guy that has a avatar that is giving everybody the finger!
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=11&p=44304&sid=bd6b2960ec860683638a7b16104604f3#p44304

Quote:

irish
%$#$%
I'm not sure the link will work, but it's this month's digital Casino Player mag. Go to page 24.
http://digital.casinoplayer.com/publication/?i=223806
While I'm not a big fan of charting myself, I find it galling that Scobe,#$###$^&, has the nerve to write such crap. For those offended, write Casino Player and complain.

Quote:

irish
Here's a sample from Scobe's article....
One Internet craps player who fancies himself a gambling expert coined the term “See a Horn, Bet a Horn.” He firmly believed and strongly advocated to his small click (sic) of gullible readers that charting/tracking random decisions works because, “Dice don’t have a memory but they have a history.”
I want you to remember that Scobe begged Heavy to let him on this forum after he jumped ship from the Golden Girls and then complained when he was denied.

Now here is where the mud slinging is coming to a head!

Quote:

Heavy
The thing is, *(*^(** I have never advocated playing a "see a horn - bet a horn" strategy (even though I do play it from time to time myself). And how can you argue with "the dice don't have a memory but they do have a history?" Sigh. Again, who cares. I know how to stop his silliness, but really, it would only draw more attention to him and that's probably what he wants in the end..

Here you have some of the main players in selling everybody on becoming a DI calling one in other names.
Well some of the DI boards are famous for that if you ask a question or call them out on anything they write, they start in on calling you names!

Both of these little stories or posts cut two ways, just like a sword. We have FS on one side writing that tracking a table doesn't work, and anybody that thinks it does is just one more nut case for the casinos to feed off of. Then you have the so-called DI's always saying the FS five count is just BS, and the name calling begins!

So does the five count actually work, hell no! You have to remember that most shooters never get pass eight rolls of the dice! So counting to five and putting out your first bet could be a death sentence!

Then you have FS saying that tracking a table doesn't work, and trying to belittle the guys that are selling it! These guys are now on a genocidal mission trying to kill off anybody from the different craps camp!

You have to remember that these different crap camps are all about selling to John Q public and nothing else. You either buy off of them or your disembowel, and cast off, just like a martyr, because you don't believe in what they are saying, and they can't have you around, because you will stop their sales of what they are preaching!
So is the DI thing dying from asphyxiation from all of the fiction that it is now smothering it?

Or is it from the slow-motion videos we now have of what the dice actually do when they hit the tables?

Quote: the little boy

Don't try to bend the spoon. That's impossible. Just realize there is no spoon.

Quote: superrick

Quote:

irish, wrote
Here's a sample from Scobe's article....

One Internet craps player who fancies himself a gambling expert coined the term “See a Horn, Bet a Horn.” He firmly believed and strongly advocated to his small click (sic) of gullible readers that charting/tracking random decisions works because, “Dice don’t have a memory but they have a history.”

       group         middle     freq  freq/100
----------------------------------------------
 0.50 <= x <  1.50     1.00   167079    16.71%
 1.50 <= x <  2.50     2.00   138698    13.87%
 2.50 <= x <  3.50     3.00   115615    11.56%
 3.50 <= x <  4.50     4.00    96677     9.67%
 4.50 <= x <  5.50     5.00    80244     8.02%
 5.50 <= x <  6.50     6.00    66648     6.66%
 6.50 <= x <  7.50     7.00    55954     5.60%
 7.50 <= x <  8.50     8.00    46736     4.67%
 8.50 <= x <  9.50     9.00    38796     3.88%
 9.50 <= x < 10.50    10.00    32055     3.21%
10.50 <= x < 11.50    11.00    26880     2.69%
11.50 <= x < 12.50    12.00    22665     2.27%
12.50 <= x < 13.50    13.00    18722     1.87%
13.50 <= x < 14.50    14.00    15379     1.54%
14.50 <= x < 15.50    15.00    12852     1.29%
15.50 <= x < 16.50    16.00    10683     1.07%
16.50 <= x < 17.50    17.00     9099     0.91%
17.50 <= x < 18.50    18.00     7484     0.75%
18.50 <= x < 19.50    19.00     6416     0.64%
19.50 <= x < 20.50    20.00     5159     0.52%
20.50 <= x < 21.50    21.00     4296     0.43%
21.50 <= x < 22.50    22.00     3661     0.37%
22.50 <= x < 23.50    23.00     3023     0.30%
23.50 <= x < 24.50    24.00     2520     0.25%
24.50 <= x < 25.50    25.00     2133     0.21%
25.50 <= x < 26.50    26.00     1786     0.18%
26.50 <= x < 27.50    27.00     1457     0.15%
27.50 <= x < 28.50    28.00     1166     0.12%
28.50 <= x < 29.50    29.00     1008     0.10%
29.50 <= x < 30.50    30.00      872     0.09%
30.50 <= x < 31.50    31.00      678     0.07%
31.50 <= x < 32.50    32.00      581     0.06%
32.50 <= x < 33.50    33.00      527     0.05%
33.50 <= x < 34.50    34.00      380     0.04%
34.50 <= x < 35.50    35.00      313     0.03%
35.50 <= x < 36.50    36.00      301     0.03%
36.50 <= x < 37.50    37.00      239     0.02%
37.50 <= x < 38.50    38.00      210     0.02%
38.50 <= x < 39.50    39.00      174     0.02%
39.50 <= x < 40.50    40.00      146     0.01%
40.50 <= x < 41.50    41.00      109     0.01%
41.50 <= x < 42.50    42.00       88     0.01%
42.50 <= x < 43.50    43.00       87     0.01%
43.50 <= x < 44.50    44.00       65     0.01%
44.50 <= x < 45.50    45.00       56     0.01%
45.50 <= x < 46.50    46.00       55     0.01%
46.50 <= x < 47.50    47.00       38     0.00%
47.50 <= x < 48.50    48.00       29     0.00%
48.50 <= x < 49.50    49.00       33     0.00%
49.50 <= x < 50.50    50.00       17     0.00%
50.50 <= x < 51.50    51.00       20     0.00%
51.50 <= x < 52.50    52.00       12     0.00%
52.50 <= x < 53.50    53.00       13     0.00%
53.50 <= x < 54.50    54.00        7     0.00%
54.50 <= x < 55.50    55.00       11     0.00%
55.50 <= x < 56.50    56.00       10     0.00%
56.50 <= x < 57.50    57.00        5     0.00%
57.50 <= x < 58.50    58.00        5     0.00%
58.50 <= x < 59.50    59.00        4     0.00%
59.50 <= x < 60.50    60.00        0   
60.50 <= x < 61.50    61.00        5     0.00%
61.50 <= x < 62.50    62.00        4     0.00%
62.50 <= x < 63.50    63.00        3     0.00%
63.50 <= x < 64.50    64.00        1     0.00%
64.50 <= x < 65.50    65.00        1     0.00%
65.50 <= x < 66.50    66.00        2     0.00%
66.50 <= x < 67.50    67.00        1     0.00%
67.50 <= x < 68.50    68.00        1     0.00%
68.50 <= x < 69.50    69.00        1     0.00%
69.50 <= x < 70.50    70.00        1     0.00%
70.50 <= x < 71.50    71.00        0   
71.50 <= x < 72.50    72.00        0   
72.50 <= x < 73.50    73.00        0   
73.50 <= x < 74.50    74.00        1     0.00%
74.50 <= x < 75.50    75.00        1     0.00%
75.50 <= x < 76.50    76.00        0   
76.50 <= x < 77.50    77.00        0   
77.50 <= x < 78.50    78.00        0   
78.50 <= x < 79.50    79.00        1     0.00%
79.50 <= x < 80.50    80.00        0   
80.50 <= x < 81.50    81.00        0   
81.50 <= x < 82.50    82.00        0   
82.50 <= x < 83.50    83.00        0   
83.50 <= x < 84.50    84.00        0   
84.50 <= x < 85.50    85.00        0   
85.50 <= x < 86.50    86.00        1     0.00%

Quote:

Here you have some of the main players in selling everybody on becoming a DI calling one another names.
Well some of the DI boards are famous for that if you ask a question or call them out on anything they write, they start in on calling you names, or put you in time-out!

Quote: DeMango

There is a reason why Scoblete seems to be held in high esteem on this site. You have never been given a view of the other side. Thanks Rick for giving us a small taste of that other side. A very small taste.

Quote: mustangsally

“See a Horn, Bet a Horn.”
without actually reading this, if a Horn (from the numbers {2,3,11,12})
JUST rolled (given a Horn just rolled)

the roll that has the highest probability of the NEXT Horn to occur
IS the very next roll, not the 3rd roll or 10th roll
the very next...

Quote: dicesitter

So for all practical purposes is dice control done?????

I say yes.. as we have known it..... its over

But what is not over is something you wont see or read about..... it is the few people that can do things with the dice, that
can actually chart a table and make sense out of it, that can view the results on the table and determine if you can beat
the set of dice that are being used. These very few people are no threat to a casino, they bet so little, they leave so quickly
that the average player would never notice them, a casino will never kick them out, yet they will have tremendous satisfaction from beating a table more often than they should.

So the so called golden years of dice control may have come and gone.......... that may be a blesssing for the few people that
can actually play the game.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

Axelwolf


Why look you already have one, the idea you can beat a slot machine easier than the table.

I am a happy camper, if we can get all the real good gamblers thinking the slots are the place
to be, and the craps table is left to those of us lost souls that still play craps. (smiling)

Its a great time to be alive.


dicesetter

Quote: Steve 'Heavy' Haltom

The thing is, this idxxt thinks if he tells this lie long enough everyone will believe it. I have never advocated playing a "see a horn - bet a horn" strategy (even though I do play it from time to time myself) . And how can you argue with "the dice don't have a memory but they do have a history?" Sigh. Again, who cares. I know how to stop his silliness, but really, it would only draw more attention to him and that's probably what he wants in the end..

Quote: Mad Professor

During the Point-cycle, I will sometimes use Heavy’s “See A Horn, Bet A Horn” approach on the basis that some of the anti-Point dice-sets that I use do in fact spin off a lot of Horn-numbers as well as a preponderance of the desired 7-Out’s that I am looking for.
Notice that I don’t throw out money on the Horn in the HOPE that it repeats, but do so on the basis of frequent higher-than-average repeats.

Sincerely,
The Mad Professor

Quote: Mad Professor

Posted by The Mad Professor on August 11, 2008
Irishsetter proposed assembling a team of skilled shooters to run a progression on the Horn-bet …
Though the Horn-Progression isn't strictly based on Heavy's see-a-Horn-number-outcome-and-then-bet-on-the-Horn concept; it's inspiration was clearly sourced back to that original idea.

The Mad Professor
Copyright © 2007-2008

Quote: Steve 'Heavy' Haltom

The old “see a horn bet a horn” belief is a good example. Like the all-powerful seven, a horn number will roll about 17% of the time. But that means it will NOT roll 83% of the time. Toss out a $4 horn bet and lose it and it’s no big deal in most players’ minds. Toss it out and win $27 on the roll of a twelve and it IS a big deal… If, for example, you see a player setting the V-3, then tossing an ace-deuce craps you know he’s had a three-face shift of the dice on axis. You also know that if he does not correct the grip or toss issue that caused the excess rotation of one die that there is a likelihood that the ace-deuce or yo will show again. So, you toss out $2 on the ace-deuce/yo or a $4 horn and look for a lightning strike. It happens all the time. My advice for players looking to play the hops and props – dedicate a very small portion of you session money for this type of play, then set some very firm rules regarding when and how you’ll play that action.

Quote: Steve 'Heavy' Haltom

I believe if you have done sufficient tracking through the years you will get to the point that you recognize certain patterns and trends within your own sphere of competence and be able to capitalize on them… if the eleven shows I'd better slip into see a horn bet a horn mode.

Quote: dicesitter [/q

laughing...... sorry i almost fell of my chair

Amercan life....If someone just gives me something, then i will have it.

Quote:

You may actually be right, there may only be 3 people in the country that still feel you can benefit from
very hard work, whether that is life in general or the craps table.

Quote: heavy

Now, I'm not going to qualify any of Rick's posts by cutting and pasting his out of context quotes. I think Rick has essentially shown that he is a disgruntled failure at DI who thinks that if he cannot profit from it nobody can. So he takes a random player approach and thinks he can win at craps that way. I see an image of Don Quixote tilting at windmills in the distance. As for his participation on the various Internet forums - I can think of a several he's been barred from because of his obsessive/compulsive behavior regarding myself, Irishsetter, Mad Professor, and anyone else who teaches dice control techniques. If I'm not mistaken he's also closely affiliated with - if not firmly in - the "biased dice" camp, which is another venture into idiocy. But hey - let's not even go there at this point. Just read his posts (yes, I encourage you to) and you'll get a taste of his OCD behavior.

Quote: heavy

As far as people from the different DI camps calling each other names - Scoblete and his sock puppet minions started that long ago. Personally, I hate flame wars - which is why I do a fair job of vetting members of my forum and moderating the posts. But I'm a big boy with a pretty standard response in situations where someone takes a shot at me. If somebody hits me - I hit back.

Somewhere around here I have a copy of an e-mail Scoblete sent me long ago when I complained about him taking things I said out of context and using them in articles where he slammed the "internet craps guru" for his stupid strategies such as "see a horn - bet a horn." His e-mail was basically an egotistical boast on his popularity and the fact that nobody even knew who I was. Quite a shot from a guy who - before becoming the famous gaming author - was essentially a failed dinner theater actor. The problem was - "see a horn - bet a horn" was never a strategy I taught. It was simply an observation I made at the table once when the horn numbers were repeating - much the same as when a particular number - say the nine - is repeating at a high rate and the dealer says "if you aren't betting the nine you aren't winning."

Quote: heavy

I don't want to violate any TOS here on the forum so I'll just wrap up with the G-rated version of my comments. At the end of the day guys like SuperRick are basically hemorrhoids on the back end of the dice control community. He's a small, jealous man who can be anything he wants to be (including with his idiotic sock puppets and on the extremely popular - not - craps forum he moderates) on the internet. Yeah, guys like him are an irritant. But you learn to keep a tube of Preparation H in the medicine cabinet, live with it and go on. I feel sorry for him and his personal position in life. He's had his share of adversity and I wish him no ill will. I would not want the hand life has dealt him.

Quote: superrick

We now see their great fiction writer writing about AP slot play, you know where you can take your free slot play and turn it into cash, by just getting lucky playing some stupid slot machine that you feel is lucky.

No it doesn't have anything to do with skill, because if it did you would be playing video poker!

Now days on one of the DI boards they are reading about the great fiction writers lucky slot play.

Quote: Irishsetter

The theoretical doubling and re-doubling of bankroll (in relative perpetuity) has thus far been a myth worthy of the Loch Ness Monster.

What if I said there are no SRR's of 8:1 (say over 10K live rolls)? Theoretically it's possible. In actuality, probably not possible. What if I said there are no SRR's of 7:1? Again, theoretically possible. And there may be someone who could actually achieve it in a vacuum. But not in live conditions over a large sample.

What if I said your edge is inconstant? What if I said you toss with an edge less 50% of the time? What if it's less than 25% of the time?

What if I said your actual edge, if you're able to achieve one, is in the fractions of a percentage or 2?

Now, here's the interesting part. There's a lot of profit to be made. In fact, when you give up the fairy tales, and concentrate on what's real, you free yourself from absurd expectations. No, you're never going to be able to claim an SRR of 28, or claim to be flown by helicopter to Shakira's personal suite for a private show. But you will also stop being unsatisfied with smaller wins and quit beating yourself up every time you don't win.
_________________

"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." Voltaire

"Do right. Do - Do - Do Do right." Cabaret Voltaire

Quote: Heavy

MP - since the SRR of 28 thing continues to come up - both from Irish and Super Rick - why don't you addressa this. Was the 28 SRR a result of short-term variance in your tracking or was it a pure bullshit number you came up with to make for a better post? Like Irish and SR, I think a claim of a long run SRR in that range is pretty hard to believe.

Quote: MP's reply

MP

There's no doubt that the SRR-28 thing was a prime example of using too few samples that were drawn only from hands that exceeded the 5-count.

Big mistake? Absolutely!

Quote: Heavy

MP - Your posts are starting to look like something from the Rainbow Coalition. No, that was not a racial joke. Just saying.

I appreciate your comment regarding the SRR of 29 and roll sample size . . . but after the 5 count? Surely you have not been sipping from the GTC Kool Aid pitcher.

Quote: heavy

I don't want to violate any TOS here on the forum so I'll just wrap up with the G-rated version of my comments. At the end of the day guys like SuperRick are basically hemorrhoids on the back end of the dice control community. He's a small, jealous man who can be anything he wants to be (including with his idiotic sock puppets and on the extremely popular - not - craps forum he moderates) on the internet. Yeah, guys like him are an irritant. But you learn to keep a tube of Preparation H in the medicine cabinet, live with it and go on. I feel sorry for him and his personal position in life. He's had his share of adversity and I wish him no ill will. I would not want the hand life has dealt him.

Quote:

Heavy do you really want to debate me on an open forum where I can counter anything you write!

Quote: heavy

I normally don't post on the Wizard's forum because the voices here tend to get shrill rather quickly. Then there's the sock puppet problem with all of those alter-egos you guys have. In fact, I don't even read the forum unless someone e-mails me a link to a post where I'm mentioned. Thanks for the publicity, by the way. I could not have a better publicist than SuperRick. Every time he gets on one of these rants membership on my forum increases, video sales increase, and seminar attendance goes up. Keep posting those links, Rick. It helps the forum's placement with the search engines.

Now, I'm not going to qualify any of Rick's posts by cutting and pasting his out of context quotes. I think Rick has essentially shown that he is a disgruntled failure at DI who thinks that if he cannot profit from it nobody can. So he takes a random player approach and thinks he can win at craps that way. I see an image of Don Quixote tilting at windmills in the distance. As for his participation on the various Internet forums - I can think of a several he's been barred from because of his obsessive/compulsive behavior regarding myself, Irishsetter, Mad Professor, and anyone else who teaches dice control techniques. If I'm not mistaken he's also closely affiliated with - if not firmly in - the "biased dice" camp, which is another venture into idiocy. But hey - let's not even go there at this point. Just read his posts (yes, I encourage you to) and you'll get a taste of his OCD behavior.

As far as people from the different DI camps calling each other names - Scoblete and his sock puppet minions started that long ago. Personally, I hate flame wars - which is why I do a fair job of vetting members of my forum and moderating the posts. But I'm a big boy with a pretty standard response in situations where someone takes a shot at me. If somebody hits me - I hit back.

Somewhere around here I have a copy of an e-mail Scoblete sent me long ago when I complained about him taking things I said out of context and using them in articles where he slammed the "internet craps guru" for his stupid strategies such as "see a horn - bet a horn." His e-mail was basically an egotistical boast on his popularity and the fact that nobody even knew who I was. Quite a shot from a guy who - before becoming the famous gaming author - was essentially a failed dinner theater actor. The problem was - "see a horn - bet a horn" was never a strategy I taught. It was simply an observation I made at the table once when the horn numbers were repeating - much the same as when a particular number - say the nine - is repeating at a high rate and the dealer says "if you aren't betting the nine you aren't winning."

By the way, Rick. Those "see a horn - bet a horn" numbers you posted are essentially the same ones I posted in an article on this topic five or six years ago - an article that I'm going to reprise in this month's Axis Power Craps newsletter - which will go in the e-mail to my forum members tonight. No doubt you will get a copy.

I must agree with Dicenor33 when he said the dice control revolution was started by Captain Morgan. And no, we're not talking about the rum. We're talking about the original dicesetter.com website started by Irishsetter. If there was a Captain of the modern school of dice control - Mr. Morgan was it. Scoblete tried to make the Captain the godfather and creator of dice control when he rewrote one of his early books, but some of us had the original book and he didn't get away with it.

There was a handful of us discussing DI back on the old casino.com craps forum run by Larry Edell in the late 90's. Among them - me, Irishsetter, Mad Professor, Billy the Kid, Dominator, and a few more. We also hung out at the now defunct (thanks to out of control flame-wars initiated by "the other guys") allcraps.com. Then there was crapspit.com's forum. Shortly after the demise of the allcraps forum I created the Axis Power Craps forum - which is now in its third incarnation and doing quite well as a members only board. Then there's Mad Professor's blog and forum - the latest successful DI related forum. But the FIRST forum dedicated specifically to dice control was Irishsetter's dicesetter.com. By the way - there's a thread on my board - my version (and it's about the most correct one out there) of The History of Dice Control. All of this and much more is detailed in there.

Anyway, when SuperRick talks about MP and his claims of a 28 SRR he is - like Scoblete - taking things out of context. Back in the day we often talked about bizarre SRR's we'd come up with. A guy would step up to his practice table and toss 99 times without throwing a seven and he'd claim an SRR of 99. That lasts until the next time he steps up to the table and has an SRR of 2. In the end - the bigger the book of rolls you collect in your sample - the close you'll get to the norm - SRR 6.0. MP spoke of having a fairly long run with an SRR up around 28. It was a fleeting thing. If you want to talk long-run SRR - mine has run in the high 7's for years. But hey - even a DI is subject to the same volatility of the game as a random roller. The pendulum swings both ways. You have days when you win and days when you lose - just like anyone else. The key is to have more winning days than losing days and that's what good DI's do. Frankly, most DI's fail - not because of an inability to influence the dice - but by betting their hands incorrectly and chasing losses when they get behind. DI's who have good money management and discipline skills rarely get far behind. And for those of you who want to dispute that statement - if you're a blackjack player or are in the market and have ever used the Kelly to guide your bets/investments - you have no room to talk. But the fact is - most DI's are more interested in extending their table time than they are in winning. Human nature, I guess. I call it the Greed Factor.

Somewhere back up the thread Rick criticized me for slot play. No, I don't run a slot class. Nor do I "teach" players to play slots. But the truth is I own two slot machines and I've played hundreds of thousands of spins on them looking for a pattern in the RNG's. I think one exists. I've used my experience tracking my personal machines to give me a little guidance in picking a machine. In 2009 I ended up plus over $4K in slots. Super Bowl weekend 2010 I won a total of $10K on three different machines. I had smaller wins in 2011 and 2012. I started off 2013 with a $1200 win on a $1 nine-liner and ended up the year plus around 3K. In the last two weeks I've taken over $4K (net) from the slots in Lake Charles, Kinder, Tunica and St. Louis. Well over $21K ahead since 2009.

In Tunica, when Howard "Rock 'n Roller" saw me cashing in yet another slot ticket the other day he asked me to show him how to pick a machine. We looked at around 150 machines before I found one I liked. I don't normally play dollar machines unless they're nine liners and I'm putting max coin in, but this one looked good. It was a $1 3x4x5x machine with $3 max in. He put $100 in and was (I think) $9 in when the machine popped for $960. You call it blind luck. I call it doing your research. Yeah, it's still a machine run by an RNG. But RNG's also hit winning numbers.

I don't want to violate any TOS here on the forum so I'll just wrap up with the G-rated version of my comments. At the end of the day guys like SuperRick are basically hemorrhoids on the back end of the dice control community. He's a small, jealous man who can be anything he wants to be (including with his idiotic sock puppets and on the extremely popular - not - craps forum he moderates) on the internet. Yeah, guys like him are an irritant. But you learn to keep a tube of Preparation H in the medicine cabinet, live with it and go on. I feel sorry for him and his personal position in life. He's had his share of adversity and I wish him no ill will. I would not want the hand life has dealt him.

The end of the DI community because of infighting? Nobody going to be teaching dice control anymore? Hey, here's a tip for you. Virtually all of us are teaching the same toss. Oh, the GTC toss was a derivative of the PARR toss. My toss is similar but I teach players to shoot from the deck instead of using a pendulum swing. The other (proprietary) tosses are essentially the same, you simply pre-set the dice to different numbers, hold your hand at a different angle and toss to a different spot on the table. In the end it's all about the "three c's" of a controlled throw. Comfort - Control - Consistency. And that's pretty much what we all teach. Are we going to stop teaching dice control classes? Not as long as we can fill seats in the class room. The fact is - 90% of those in the community get along just fine. There are just a few jerks out there who want to keep things stirred up.

For you guys who don't believe there's such a thing as advantage play for craps - God bless you. Keep saying it. As long as the casinos believe it we're good to go. Meanwhile, I'm going to hit one of the casinos in the St. Louis area for three or four hundred bucks and a buffet here in a few minutes.

As for my slot play - get over it. I use a limited portion of my gaming bankroll to play. It's all discretionary income that I play with based on personal research. Based on how I play, I'm so far ahead of the machines that they'll never catch up.

I guess I've given you guys enough fodder to chew on and spit out now. Just spell the name right and keep posting those links to axispowercraps.com and the forum at axispowercraps.com/crapsforum.

Quote: djatc

Tl:dr

Quote: superrick

Come on Heavy I'm totally disappointed in you, we put a link up to your board on the board that I help run, I've written many times that if a player wanted to take an on axis craps school that they could take it off you! That link has been up since Aug 05, 2010.

http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/about6.html

The one thing I do write about is taking a class off of any board that allows fiction on their board, if a new student is reading fiction on any board that is selling becoming a so-called DI what chance do they have in becoming one.

You can try to cut me down anyway you see fit, by saying that I'm a disgruntled failure at DI who thinks that if he cannot profit from it nobody can. Unlike you I live in Vegas, I make money when I'm playing craps and I don't need to sell anything to anybody! I help out guys that can't figure out what they are doing wrong, that have taking many on axis classes. But the difference is I don't charge to help someone out. If I go to the tables with someone I put my money on the line, I don't charge them a hook up fee to play craps with me! I don't come to Vegas three times a year and claim that I'm an expert, I have played with some of the guys on this board that you would describe as so-called random rollers, and have helped them out with how they were betting the game!

Quote: superrick

We now see their great fiction writer writing about AP slot play, you know where you can take your free slot play and turn it into cash, by just getting lucky playing some stupid slot machine that you feel is lucky.

No it doesn't have anything to do with skill, because if it did you would be playing video poker!

Now days on one of the DI boards they are reading about the great fiction writers lucky slot play.

Heavy I don't see in that quote where I said that great fiction writer was you, I've never called you a great fiction writer in any of my post, but while were on the subject and to clear it up, you know damn right well who I'm writing about when I say fiction writer, do I need to spell out his name for you on this board?

Quote: Irishsetter

The theoretical doubling and re-doubling of bankroll (in relative perpetuity) has thus far been a myth worthy of the Loch Ness Monster.

What if I said there are no SRR's of 8:1 (say over 10K live rolls)? Theoretically it's possible. In actuality, probably not possible. What if I said there are no SRR's of 7:1? Again, theoretically possible. And there may be someone who could actually achieve it in a vacuum. But not in live conditions over a large sample.

What if I said your edge is inconstant? What if I said you toss with an edge less 50% of the time? What if it's less than 25% of the time?

What if I said your actual edge, if you're able to achieve one, is in the fractions of a percentage or 2?

Now, here's the interesting part. There's a lot of profit to be made. In fact, when you give up the fairy tales, and concentrate on what's real, you free yourself from absurd expectations. No, you're never going to be able to claim an SRR of 28, or claim to be flown by helicopter to Shakira's personal suite for a private show. But you will also stop being unsatisfied with smaller wins and quit beating yourself up every time you don't win.
_________________

"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." Voltaire

"Do right. Do - Do - Do Do right." Cabaret Voltaire

Now I'm not the one calling your great fiction writer a fiction writer, Irishsetter is in the above quote!

Heavy you're now trying to say that the whole thing with the SRR of 28 was a mistake that the Madprofessor made for years and always defended it for years.

Don't you remember writing this Heavy?

Quote: Heavy

MP - since the SRR of 28 thing continues to come up - both from Irish and Super Rick - why don't you addressa this. Was the 28 SRR a result of short-term variance in your tracking or was it a pure bullshit number you came up with to make for a better post? Like Irish and SR, I think a claim of a long run SRR in that range is pretty hard to believe.

Heavy,... you can try to pass me off as some guy that has problems, but your making yourself look really bad when you forget some of the stuff you wrote on you're board!

Quote: MP's reply

MP

There's no doubt that the SRR-28 thing was a prime example of using too few samples that were drawn only from hands that exceeded the 5-count.

Big mistake? Absolutely!

Then you have Heavy's post:

Quote: Heavy

MP - Your posts are starting to look like something from the Rainbow Coalition. No, that was not a racial joke. Just saying.

I appreciate your comment regarding the SRR of 29 and roll sample size . . . but after the 5 count? Surely you have not been sipping from the GTC Kool Aid pitcher.

So this thing with MP's SRR is not something that just came up like your trying to portray it now! This has been an on going problem with the great fiction that MP writes, yes? Heavy do you really want to travel down this road, as I prove that what MP is writing is nothing but fiction?

The whole thing with the SRR of 28 is that he defended it for years, and never would have admitted it if it wasn't for Irish and myself that kept pushing the question about it! Now your trying to let him get away with it again?


So Heavy you feel sorry for someone that is trying to help craps players out that does not charge them for the help they get and your not making the money, or is it that you feel sorry that you have a problem with the truth, and it's not me that is your problem, it's yourself?

Now for the sad part of your post,..I get to see who are my real friends, and when they ask to go to the tables with me, they will now know why I say no! That's because they want to stay members of you're good old boys society, and will not tell the truth ! On you're board you can say anything you want to, where I can't respond to what you are saying, but on a board like this one I can counter anything you say, and the truth hurts guys like you that only post were I can't respond.

Heavy do you really want to debate me on an open forum where I can counter anything you write!