TERRIBLE DICE
during my play and after i quit and watched because i could not believe
what i was seeing.
27 1/6
5 5/2
1 3/4
Now this casino spins the dice before the table opens, but as you know or should
know this meaning nothing in terms of balance and proper weight distribution.
I asked the pit boss ( know him well) what in the world is going on here, these are
terrible dice and i dont think you would allow that on purpose. Anyway he said they
were tested, i said you cant test them by only spinning them, he just said thats all
are are required to do. I said how many of the people that lost tonight would come back
if they now knew what you and I now know???? he did not answer
But will question him again tonight
dicesetter
And why cant you just take advantage of this?Quote: dicesitterLast night while playing in Wisconsin i recorded the following 7's
during my play and after i quit and watched because i could not believe
what i was seeing.
27 1/6
5 5/2
1 3/4
Now this casino spins the dice before the table opens, but as you know or should
know this meaning nothing in terms of balance and proper weight distribution.
I asked the pit boss ( know him well) what in the world is going on here, these are
terrible dice and i dont think you would allow that on purpose. Anyway he said they
were tested, i said you cant test them by only spinning them, he just said thats all
are are required to do. I said how many of the people that lost tonight would come back
if they now knew what you and I now know???? he did not answer
But will question him again tonight
dicesetter
I think you are over reacting to nothing. If you feel that they are unfair then you should file a complaint with gaming and never go back there. It is as simple as that.
Why would you do that? Just go take advantage of the situation.Quote: GWAE27 1/6 but 0 6/1
I think you are over reacting to nothing. If you feel that they are unfair then you should file a complaint with gaming and never go back there. It is as simple as that.
Quote: AxelWolfWhy would you do that? Just go take advantage of the situation.
well that is what I would do, but apparently he couldnt figure that out.
Quote: dicesitterLast night while playing in Wisconsin i recorded the following 7's
during my play and after i quit and watched because i could not believe
what i was seeing.
27 1/6
5 5/2
1 3/4
Now this casino spins the dice before the table opens, but as you know or should
know this meaning nothing in terms of balance and proper weight distribution.
I asked the pit boss ( know him well) what in the world is going on here, these are
terrible dice and i dont think you would allow that on purpose. Anyway he said they
were tested, i said you cant test them by only spinning them, he just said thats all
are are required to do. I said how many of the people that lost tonight would come back
if they now knew what you and I now know???? he did not answer
But will question him again tonight
dicesetter
So this means nothing... the totals of 7 were biased to 1/6 or 6/1.
Whats more useful is 100 rolls
........D1........D2........Pair
1
2
3
4
5
6
If you suspect biased dice, chart it.
Spinning the dice on opposite 3D corners when spinning slowly, very slowly determines bias.
Does someone have a YouTube on this test?
I told them to check the dice at the end of the night, and balance them correctly, and my friend said
they appeared to fall back to a position when they stopped spinning.
end of story
dicesetter
That should be the begging of the story. Why no go back and take advantage of this? Where is it at?Quote: dicesitterGWAE
I told them to check the dice at the end of the night, and balance them correctly, and my friend said
they appeared to fall back to a position when they stopped spinning.
end of story
dicesetter
i could answer that but you would not understand
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterGWAE
I told them to check the dice at the end of the night, and balance them correctly, and my friend said
they appeared to fall back to a position when they stopped spinning.
end of story
dicesetter
Yup, thats the tell-tale. Good job.
I did find a link to dice balance and testing here.
Give it a try.Quote: dicesitterAxelwolf
i could answer that but you would not understand
dicesetter
IMHO a time-consuming prospect. Lurking and logging might be better, then step up with "some" knowledge.
And of course late in the shift has potentially a better chance at finding an opportunity.
Ego my ass, its called not confident in what he is claiming.Quote: DeMangoOver the years here and elsewhere, there have been a plethora of threads about "hinky dice" Never, I mean never, has the OP said; "Duh, I went to the darkside and really, really cleaned up!" Or, if a supposed DI, changed sets to take advantage of what the table was producing. If I was B9, it would be multiple face palms!!! So what is it, super ego or super stupid?
Quote: dicesitterAxelwolf
i could answer that but you would not understand
dicesetter
oh lord please enlighten us.
There is a reason there are 5 or 6 dice to choose from in Las Vegas (yes, three places that I know of use 6 dice instead of 5).
One heavily damaged die can have enough skew to be able to profit.
But I will agree that profiting requires money plus knowledge plus time. Take any one away and you have nothing that the house cares about and some are missing more than one of these three.
I am curious about the other rolls. How many 6/5, 6/4, 6/3, 6/2 and how many 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 were there?
Have you ever heard of a situation where the dice were CLEARLY rigged/biased? I'm not talking about some small small BS slightly unbalanced crap.Quote: AlanMendelsonIf I knew the dice were rigged
Have you ever heard of a situation where the dice were CLEARLY rigged/biased? I'm not talking about some small small BS slightly unbalanced crap.Quote: AlanMendelsonIf I knew the dice were rigged
Quote: AxelWolfHave you ever heard of a situation where the dice were CLEARLY rigged/biased? I'm not talking about some small small BS slightly unbalanced crap.
No.
.jpeg "Bohemian"){kind=small}
Quote: 98ClubsIf you suspect biased dice, chart it.
Spinning the dice on opposite 3D corners when spinning slowly, very slowly determines bias.
Does someone have a YouTube on this test?
Try this Link:
Video of Unbalanced Dice favoring 6/1 Seven-outs
rather that they are just not balanced properly.
Common sense tells you that is possible. Look at the pip holes and the paint that goes in to them, on
the one face you have 1 hole on the 6 you have 6, that is 6 times more plastic taken out of the 6 side than
the 1 side and 6 times as much paint on the 6 side.
Now i imagine that a quality manufacturer cant adjust for this. a company in mexico that just wants them
to look like dice may not. I have seen a couple of nights where the dice were certainly screwed up, particular
at tribal casino's where the dont know how to check them.
Now if you are throwing more 7's you can just switch to the darkside because the come out roll can also
kill you.
I have seen a couple of patterns which were very unusual and took advantage of it, but you need to be looking
and i bet for everyone i see, i over look 10.
When you have dice balanced so that almost all the 7's will be 1/6 you will also see lots of craps numbers, where your
seeing a lot of 3/4/4/3 you will also see more hard 8 and 6. But i am not yet in the camp that thinks it is always
rigged, i dont think it is, i dont think they give a crap anymore if they are balanced correctly, and most casino's
do not know what to look for.
dicesetter
I have no doubt some dice are slightly off balance.Is it enough so you can you turn it into an advantage?Quote: dicesitterthe talk of rigged dice is not that they were unbalanced on purpose in a certain way by the casino, but
rather that they are just not balanced properly.
Common sense tells you that is possible. Look at the pip holes and the paint that goes in to them, on
the one face you have 1 hole on the 6 you have 6, that is 6 times more plastic taken out of the 6 side than
the 1 side and 6 times as much paint on the 6 side.
Now i imagine that a quality manufacturer cant adjust for this. a company in mexico that just wants them
to look like dice may not. I have seen a couple of nights where the dice were certainly screwed up, particular
at tribal casino's where the dont know how to check them.
Now if you are throwing more 7's you can just switch to the darkside because the come out roll can also
kill you.
I have seen a couple of patterns which were very unusual and took advantage of it, but you need to be looking
and i bet for everyone i see, i over look 10.
When you have dice balanced so that almost all the 7's will be 1/6 you will also see lots of craps numbers, where your
seeing a lot of 3/4/4/3 you will also see more hard 8 and 6. But i am not yet in the camp that thinks it is always
rigged, i dont think it is, i dont think they give a crap anymore if they are balanced correctly, and most casino's
do not know what to look for.
dicesetter
The answer is yes and no..... you can certainly take advantage, but you have to see it soon
enough . Also each set of dice is different, so you cant plan anything. Hell each die in
the ones on the table may be different, and if you get the right combination.... i know if the
guy in front of me gas a good roll, i should want to use the same dice.
It is just part of the game some of the long time players have. They change sets, rolls,
places to throw until they figure it out and watch the dice....most of us dont get nearly
that far into the game before we give up and lose or just give up.
What i can say is i have played almost 40 years, and learned more in the past 3 years than
i did in the previous 37.
Dicesetter
Quote: FleaStiffYou think there is something wrong, put your money where your mouth is.
Biased dice or Unbalanced dice are Percentage Dice that increases the casino house edge in craps.
John Scarne describes Percentage Dice on page 209 of his book Scarne on Dice. Scarne explains that whoever is using percentage dice
Quote: John Scarne"… doesn’t have a sure thing, but he has a percentage in his favor that pays off in cash.
… If the dice roll long enough, … The victim (player) loses because he is playing against two opponents
– the cheat (casino) and that invisible but very dependable and powerful gentleman: Old Time Percentage.
Percentage dice, not on the level … "
Kind of what I was thinking, without the shot bus thing.Quote: DeMangoIf anything would increase the house edge, we may assume there is a greater amount of sevens, who really cares which combination it is. This can be taken advantage of. Lay on the comeout and play the don'ts. If you truly found this occurring, you would STFU and coin some serious shekels. But instead, the usual suspects, simply drive the short yellow bus from website to website trying to stir the pot. They should simply play the dark side and improve on their method of transportation.
Please don't waste everybody's time if your one of our so-called experts that is selling everybody on axis dice control you have a vested stake to denying that it's very possible that the casinos are using these dice! We already know that you need players to believe that there is nothing wrong with the dice.
Most players never pay attention to how the sevens are coming, but they do pay attention to the fact that they are losing more then they did before. Most craps players are just playing for the fun of it, they really couldn't care less if they win or lose. They only want to lave fun while they are losing their money! Now this is something that most players will never admit to themselves, but when you never even pick-up a book on the game you are playing that is the only way to look at those type of players.
For the game of craps I still think it's a good idea that players take a class as long as you can find someone that is not allowing fiction on their craps boards. Players need to know what they are up against and the fact they they are always playing a negative game.
The dice are the one factor that are totally over looked by the shooters, they think all dice are equal, and that is not always true. You have different manufacturers and different size dice. Some casinos will change their dice if a shooter just had a great roll, they are so good at changing them out that most players never even know that it happened. The next time you get the dice they may be bigger or smaller.
So my question is (Have anybody changed their minds as to bad dice being in the game?) Note that they can be just cheap dice or dice that are not balanced, I'm not saying that they are loaded or shaved or anything like that!
Quote: DeMangoSnake; It would do you good to get on over to the wizards site and check out Ahigh's work. I am slowly coming around to the possibility of hinky dice, but not of casino malfeasance, just saving a few shekels and buying cheap dice. I probably now spend more time there than all other dice boards combined, there is only so much to be learned, with all the agendas that each individual board has. As you know who would say; "It is what it is"
DeMango sees the light
The problem is DeMango is you truly don't understand how Percentage dice increases the House edge on both sides of the PL and DP ... certain numbers will repeat, just ask obie1 that lost his asz in Tunica yesterday trying to Lay the 5
So go ahead and take your strategy and tell us how that works or maybe you don't know how to recognize unbalanced dice in play yet.
As evidenced by your initial post above, you and irishsetter and Heavy have to resort to name calling anyone that talks about unbalanced dice just because you all were not smart enough to recognize them 1st. Petty jealousy indeed.
Quote: DeMangoI don't disagree with your position as far as cheap dice MAY be around and MAY have a bias. To that end I WOULD take advantage especially those of you who live at the scene of the crime. That is my entire point.
There are those of us that are taking advantage of what we know, but sticking your head in the sand and saying that it isn't so helps no one! Telling the rest of the craps playing community there is no such thing as bad dice just hurts every one! Saying that the guys that brought this to light rides a short bus is just a travesty of foolishness on the part of some of the dice schools.
They think that if their students found out about the cheap dice that are now in play, they couldn't sell their classes!
There is a lot of talk about what is happening, but it's not getting on the craps DI boards, because these players know that if they bring up the subject they will be banned from those boards!
The real problem is that most guys just don't play enough craps they may get to the casinos only a few times a year. While were on the subject, just how many time a year do you get to play craps, do you have to drive for hours to play, or can you hop in your car and hit over 300 craps table in a few minutes drive?
We don't lose and cry about it, we you developed ways to play the game and still win. Most of the craps players that I know have given up playing craps, these are the guys that were not DI's but played everyday here in Vegas. They were just rhythm rollers, that got on some good rolls they knew how to bet the game and would win and lose, but managed to keep a little ahead of the game. Now days I might bump into them at a grocery store and it's the same old story they all gave up playing, because they could no longer beat the game.
This happened to all of the players that I would see playing everyday in one of the casinos that I would hit! Sure the casino still has plenty of players it's like a revolving door. There will always be new ones to replace the ones that figure out they can't beat they game!
The short bus crew is a derogatory remark, meant to put somebody down. It's an insult, and the guys that you are accusing of riding a short bus never did.
If you want to talk dice that great, but if you want to throw out insults think about what you are saying before you write it! Your not making any friends!
Quote: DeMangoI don't disagree with your position as far as cheap dice MAY be around and MAY have a bias. To that end I WOULD take advantage especially those of you who live at the scene of the crime. That is my entire point.
So how do you want them to get to the scene of the crime and collect all the shekels?
If you are going to backstroke on your position on the cheap dice and try to save face, the least you could do is apologize for the insulting name calling about the short bus comment.
Seems only fair.
Quote: BohemianDeMango - What bus are you and irishSetter and Heavy riding on if you all finally admit to "hinky dice" as you posted on March 16, 2013, but you were not the 1st to discover them:
DeMango sees the light
The problem is DeMango is you truly don't understand how Percentage dice increases the House edge on both sides of the PL and DP ... certain numbers will repeat, just ask obie1 that lost his asz in Tunica yesterday trying to Lay the 5
So go ahead and take your strategy and tell us how that works or maybe you don't know how to recognize unbalanced dice in play yet.
Nice check there Bohemian!
Man that is just excellant work with clickable links. What a great job of presenting the facts!
I actually get to learn something following some of your research, thanks.
Quote: petroglyphSo how do you want them to get to the scene of the crime and collect all the shekels?
They are at the alleged scene of the crime, they live in and around Vegas. They say they have dice that throw off more sevens than normal. That is a money making opportunity'.
If you are going to backstroke on your position on the cheap dice and try to save face, the least you could do is apologize for the insulting name calling about the short bus comment.
.
I don't backstroke on nothing. Cheap dice and biased dice are two different issues. When, years ago, this subject came up the issue was dice that had a bias to 6/1 results. These arguments went on forever. With heated debates came expulsion from various dice boards. Rick stood up for Harley and also was shown the door. No credible evidence was ever shown for biased dice. That really is the bottom line. The argument finally morphed into cheap dice. There may be a case for this.
So, in conclusion for me, show us the evidence. If you have dice that come up 7, one out of 5 rolls, there is a money making opportunity. The casino cannot be that dumb.
For you to say what you have just said makes me wonder if you ever put
any time in the game of craps. Some how the idea that biased dice are different than
cheap dice sounds almost like the comment i heard a couple of years ago "if you
like your doctor you can keep him)
Biased dice are dice that are not balanced properly which produces a certain result
more often than the normal math of the game would dictate. Is does not matter how
they got that way. It almost sounds like you want to excuse the casino for using
dice from where ever they can get them and then not understanding how to check to
see if they are balanced properly.
Now for your second comment " if you have dice that come up 7, 1 out of 5 rolls
there is a money making opportunity" this would be true if you knew exactly which
roll the 7 came out. If you have 1 7 out of 6 rolls that is 16.6% , now if you have 1 out
of 5 that is 20%.... that different not only affects the pass line or right players, but
affects the dont pass and dont come players, making it harder to make money.
Now i will give you one thing, if you are paying attention, you may benefit from laying
the point, that will not be affected by the additional 7's as a dont pass or dont come player
would be.
The whole point is a casino should use fair dice, 2 times in the past year i pointed out to the
casino that their dice were bad, the first they saved them and checked after the shift and
they were bad dice, the other casino , they indicated they just take them out of the package and
look at them.
Poor playing conditions and poor dice hurt everyone, and it will go on until enough players make it
known to the casino, and in my mind there is no difference between a casino shaving the dice, which
i dont think they do, and using dice poorly balanced and not caring or knowing.
dicersetter
i did not think you would, but i would really like to know how having more 7's benefits a dont pass or dont come player.....
i would like to know how having poor cheap dice affects a player less than so called bias dice.....please go for it
dicesetter
More 7's. The idea behind the biased dice conspiracy. Hasn't been proven. However if you cannot figure out that more 7's equal shorter hands for the pass line player and quicker wins for the don't pass player, I'm not sure if anything can be done with you.
Cheaper Dice. Cheaper dice are just that, cheaper. Does not mean they are biased. Just not made by the usual suspects.
By the way Heavy has just got in a new batch of dice, selling them in two stick packs, one green, one red. Find them on his site, I'm sure you can find the way.
Quote: dicesitterlaughing
Good for you!
But if I knew where there were biased dice I would be laughing too..... all the way to the bank!
Thanks for the reply, but you forgot to answer the question, explain how more 7's does not impact the
dont pass player on the come out roll or the dont come bet player on his first play on the come line. Also
remember that since the distribution of 7's ( any other number for that matter" is not a constant so if
have more 7's they may come 1-3 in a roll just like any other number, which can destroy a dont
better.
Then again please explain how cheap dice that are unbalanced affect a player less than biased dice
would...
And finally ofcourse the fact that casino's have unbalanced dice has been proven.. over and over, what
has not been proven and may well never be is did the casino order dice that they knew were not
balanced or did they actually check them and use them anyway. I am not in camp that says a casino
would shave the dice, i would have no idea about that.
dicesetter
More 7's on the comeout would indeed be a problem for the don't player. Two solutions right off the bat: 1. Lay 2. Doey Don't. I'm sure other crapsters can figure out a few, even (gasp) John Patrick.
Once again cheap dice are just cheap. Unbalanced dice can happen anywhere, it's effects can be positive or negative. This is why casinos change the dice at set intervals. Biased dice set to produce 1/6's, which was the original biased dice theory, would indeed effect the game.
You really need to think things through, not just listen to those with an agenda.
Quote: DeMangoI don't backstroke on nothing. Cheap dice and biased dice are two different issues.
WRONG DeMango - Cheap dice = Biased Dice = Unbalanced dice = Loaded Dice = Percentage Dice = Mexican dice = Alibaba dice. They are all the same thing, no matter what you call them, you have been listening to too many fiction writers and used car salesmen so pull you head out of the sand and wake up. dicesitter is correct when he states that biased dice and cheap dice are the same.
Listen to your own words:
Quote: DeMangoYou really need to think things through, not just listen to those with an agenda.
On-Axis Craps school teachers do not want you to know that the dice can wobble off-axis from being unbalanced or cheaply made. THAT IS AN AGENDA. The people that live in Las Vegas or near Indian casinos and play craps everyday do not have an agenda except to play with fair balanced dice.
Quote: DeMango.Quote:I don't backstroke on nothing
I looked in urban dictionary and didn't find backstroke. [or at least an interpretation that was acceptable to me] I have heard the term used for when a person will say one thing and later try and tell people that is not what they said as it appears to me is what you are doing.
More 7's on the comeout would indeed be a problem for the don't player.Quote:Lay on the comeout and play the don't
And how did you get here from Heavy's board?Quote:But instead, the usual suspects, simply drive the short yellow bus from website to website
And here you are, on yet a different board, calling names and deriding them for going from website to website. That to me is one definition of trolling or stalking.Quote:expulsion from various dice boards. Rick stood up for Harley and also was shown the door.
By the way Heavy has just got in a new batch of dice, selling them in two stick packs, one green, one red. Find them on his site, I'm sure you can find the way..Quote:That really is the bottom line
Quote:The argument finally morphed into cheap dice. There may be a case for this.
Well there you go. Multiple violations of forum rules, selling your product, name calling, trolling. Internet stalking with intent to belittle. Not my house, not my rules.
I know you are an intelligent guy. Alluding to these members as "short bus" I think is beneath you, I know it is beneath this forums standards, and it is offensive which I am sure is you'alls intent. Please stop. I am sure if you choose you can bring something besides derision.
Your associates, maybe not so much.
