Sharpshooter's Book: Truth or Fiction

I wrote this in another thread and I think it should be it's own topic:

I think if the critics of dice influencing took the time to read Sharpshooter's book which clearly goes through the physics of dice influencing, a lot of the comments that DI is "impossible" would go away.

What I would really like to see -- if it is possible -- is for someone to post how Sharpshooter has the DI theory all wrong?

There is no question and there is nothing to debate that most people don't have the physical skill to throw dice properly to achieve DI. The question is can ANYONE do it? Theoretically it can be done -- unless you can show me how Sharpshooter has it wrong.

That is really what the debate about DI should focus on: is Sharpshooter's book accurate in its claims, including physics and math? Did anyone else read it besides me?

Quote: AlanMendelson

I wrote this in another thread and I think it should be it's own topic:

I think if the critics of dice influencing took the time to read Sharpshooter's book which clearly goes through the physics of dice influencing, a lot of the comments that DI is "impossible" would go away.

What I would really like to see -- if it is possible -- is for someone to post how Sharpshooter has the DI theory all wrong?

There is no question and there is nothing to debate that most people don't have the physical skill to throw dice properly to achieve DI. The question is can ANYONE do it? Theoretically it can be done -- unless you can show me how Sharpshooter has it wrong.

That is really what the debate about DI should focus on: is Sharpshooter's book accurate in its claims, including physics and math? Did anyone else read it besides me?

If he is following casino rules, no sliding, have to hit the back wall, and a casino bans him from playing craps, then I may believe.
Is he banned from any casino?
If so, is the ban for DI.
Why write a book? If I was capable of DI, no way I'm writing a book, I would just win, live a life of luxury and keep my mouth shut.

deleted

Theoretically it can be done -- unless you can show me "

Editorial Correction DI Theoretically it CAN'T be done -- unless you can show me

Quote: AlanMendelson

Theoretically it can be done --

I'd say that should be "hypothetically."

The above replies do not surprise me.

The only person on earth will tell/show you about DI is your mom/dad. Otherwise...............

Quote: AlanMendelson

The above replies do not surprise me.

I haven't read the book nor know the guy's take.

If he claims he can shoot a specific number every time, i know that's not possible. if he claims he can shoot a specific number more often than a random sitribution indicates, I would tend consider it pending further analysis of his statistics (by someone else; I don't know enough). Likewise if he claims he can avoid hitting a certina number (namely seven).

Given the available evidence I can see and understand, I doubt influencing dice is profitable at the table. As has been said, why would people who find or develop a means of winning at craps be telling this to everyone, writing books about it and giving lessons? I can think of only oen reason: influencing dice to win reliably at craps is possible, but also so demanding that selling books, DVDs and lessons about it is more profitable.

Thorpe wrote his book on card counting after he tested his method, or so the story goes, and he didn't gamble professionally as far as I know. If he wasn't going to follow a career of coutning cards for profit, then he had nothing to lose by writing and selling his book.

AS far as DI goes, I'll believe it when someone does a study under controlled conditions and using enough samples.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The above replies do not surprise me.

Of course I am skeptical.
I'm very curious, is he banned from a casino?
I have an open mind, maybe this guy is the real deal, but I need a little more then a book.
I would consider reading the book if there was some other proof such as being banned from a casino.

I'm a baseball fan. Its a bad comparison but anyway, spin is the key to making a ball go where you want it to go.
I'm sure he's not spinning the dice.
On the flip side, I'm a huge knuckle ball fan. That's throwing with actually no spin. Nobody, catcher, batter, pitcher, knows where the ball will end up.
That's why catchers hate to catch knuckle balls, nobody knows if it will be high or low, left or right, or maybe right over the plate. Unpredictable.

It's a fair question, has he been banned?
Any videos showing DI?
Anything?

I was so disappointed in your response, I mean cmon, is there any evidence besides what this guy writes or says.
I'm asking a fair question, not a snarky one.

I'm banned from shooting from four casinos in Las Vegas. All it means is that they don't like me. Being banned means nothing.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The above replies do not surprise me.

Is that how you do your investigative reporting? Something is true just because someone says it is until you prove it doesn't? That's generally not the way it works. Generally the burden of proof is on the person making the claims that something outlandish or out of the ordinary does exist.

There have been examples of not being able to control the dice on a legal shot (both dice hitting the back wall) till we are blue in the face. Someone has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt it can be done to make it so.

The replies above shouldn't surprise you at all.


ZCore13

Quote: Ahigh

I'm banned from shooting from four casinos in Las Vegas. All it means is that they don't like me. Being banned means nothing.

Do you know anybody banned for DI and follows all rules (no sliding, hitting back wall) regarding shooting craps?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Did anyone else read it besides me?

I read it, years ago, and it is still on my bookshelf.

Guess I'll blow the dust off it, peruse it again and take a stab at answering your question at a later date.

Quote: terapined

Do you know anybody banned for DI and follows all rules (no sliding, hitting back wall) regarding shooting craps?

Casinos banning people from for DI is not a good indication of the possibility of DI. During the DI hype and right after the history channels Breaking Vegas some casinos were duped just like a few others. Lets not forget there was legitimate money to be made mail mining.

I'm sure some pit bosses do believe in DI. It has been proven time and time again not all pit bosses are the sharpest tools in the shed . I would not be surprised if a few casinos tactically tossed out some high profile people just to make DI seem like a threat to the casinos.

DI's can also be annoying people. Craps is usually a game where they like excited cheering players DI's are generally dry serious people, casinos don't like this. Some DI's cause trouble and even slow down the game.

Quote: terapined

Do you know anybody banned for DI and follows all rules (no sliding, hitting back wall) regarding shooting craps?

I follow all the rules. And not a single place has given me a reason, and they don't have to in Vegas. The closest thing I got to a reason was "we are uncomfortable with your play" which is what they told me at Fiesta Rancho upon prodding them before they read me the trespass.

Binions is the latest place to ban me, and Sean was the one to confirm that I can't shoot there and he said, also, "we don't want your action."

I was hitting the back wall every time. They're just scared, but they don't KNOW any more than you or me. They see a clean looking shot, IMO, and that's enough to be worried.

I see LOTS of people setting dice, but it only matters what the dice look like as they fly through the air.

The stacker gives the most pause of any shot I use, and I don't have that shot profiled at all (IE: I don't attempt AP with the shot, I just like how it looks). It's a legal shot when both dice hit the wall and they do allow it in several places where I shoot.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I wrote this in another thread and I think it should be it's own topic:

I think if the critics of dice influencing took the time to read Sharpshooter's book which clearly goes through the physics of dice influencing, a lot of the comments that DI is "impossible" would go away.

What I would really like to see -- if it is possible -- is for someone to post how Sharpshooter has the DI theory all wrong?

There is no question and there is nothing to debate that most people don't have the physical skill to throw dice properly to achieve DI. The question is can ANYONE do it? Theoretically it can be done -- unless you can show me how Sharpshooter has it wrong.

That is really what the debate about DI should focus on: is Sharpshooter's book accurate in its claims, including physics and math? Did anyone else read it besides me?

Alan, do you really believe everything you read, and do you think what he wrote about the physics holds water?

Just look at these video, and tell me that your not living in La, La land, they taught me about reaction in grade school. You don't have to be a rocket scientist, to know that the dice are going to bounce uncontrollably when they hit the table! Everybody is just looking for a magic bullet, let me know if you ever find one! The chances of that happening on a craps table are slim to nil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_%28physics%29

All of these guys that have written books on becoming a DI, have one thing in common, they still have their day job! The only one that I have any respect for is Stanford Wong, because he came out admitted that after watching slow-motion video of what happens when the dice hit the table he was wrong about what he thought about dice control. Stanford Wong is a highly respected author, on blackjack, and did write Wong on Dice!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Wong

By the way I do have a copy of Getting the Edge at Craps by Sharpshooter, and guess what he still has his day job.

..

Alan, I consider Aaron (Ahigh) to be the expert on DI. He has put far more into this and has believed in it more than any rational person would. With that said, you have to know you are only looking to get people going as you always do. Sometimes you do it for a living, knowing you are full of shit, but still making a buck off of it. Other times you may actually believe it. After all, you offer a forum where Rob Singer is free to post his nonsense day after day.

All things considered, I think I speak for many posters here in that your beliefs make you out to be a total asshole. Unless you get your jollies questioning everything anyone with common sense "reports".

Either way, I expect to be suspended for this post. But sometimes you have to take one for the team.

And while I am gone I will question what people like you get out of posts like yours.

Quote: Boz

I expect to be suspended for this post. But sometimes you have to take one for the team.

And while I am gone I will question what people like you get out of posts like yours.

Thank you sir for this post. On and on and on, he only quits when Ahigh is not around. And don't forget the 18 yo's in a row! Priceless!

Quote: Boz

Alan, I consider Aaron (Ahigh) to be the expert on DI. He has put far more into this and has believed in it more than any rational person would. With that said, you have to know you are only looking to get people going as you always do. Sometimes you do it for a living, knowing you are full of shit, but still making a buck off of it. Other times you may actually believe it. After all, you offer a forum where Rob Singer is free to post his nonsense day after day.

All things considered, I think I speak for many posters here in that your beliefs make you out to be a total asshole. Unless you get your jollies questioning everything anyone with common sense "reports".

Either way, I expect to be suspended for this post. But sometimes you have to take one for the team.

And while I am gone I will question what people like you get out of posts like yours.

Sorry, Boz, but you called your shot. See you in 3 days. EDIT: Dangit, Boz, you were just popped last month. I had to make it 7.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Sorry, Boz, but you called your shot. See you in 3 days. .

I never get why people do this. Get suspended
on purpose. I have never been suspended for
name calling. Only once for joking about Nareed,
years ago.

Glad you are back EB. Hay Even , do you own the chain EB games? Can I have some coupon please???????

" On the flip side, I'm a huge knuckle ball fan. That's throwing with actually no spin. Nobody, catcher, batter, pitcher, knows where the ball will end up. "

Major League baseball limited the size of the catcher's mitt. Bye,bye Knuckleball pitchers. Yoga Berra said if all the pitchers were knuckleballers, there would not be a 200 hitter in the league.

Having seem Hyot Wilhelm, I have to agree with Yogi. Hyot made the majors at age 29. He used to bet $5 that other players could not
catch 2 of 3 pitches. He regularly took Willie May's money.

He last pitched at age 49. His ERA soared to 3:47. The previous year it was 2:17

Still waiting for someone to post how Sharpshooter has the physics of dice influencing wrong?

Been reading a lot of the usual comments but no one points out what's incorrect about his book?

1) Author discusses the art of physically "controlling" the dice without a real picture !! He added some picture for dice setting but as far as the gripping and shooting are concerned there are only two "free hand" drawing (can you believe ? amateurish free hand pencil drawing) to "make you understand" the correct grip and throw - two most important aspects of dice control.

2) Why he gave less info on the most critical aspect? Because he conducts a costly seminar on the same topic ($300) and this book is nothing but the "sales pitch" of the same seminar.

3) I found more information on dice setting and dice grip FREE on the following website: dicecoach dot com

Bottom line: You will learn nothing about dice control after you finish this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Edge-Craps-Scoblete-Get-The-Edge-Guide/dp/1566251737/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

All the positive comments are from kool aid drinkers who worship, Frank, the Captain, and the usual true believers.

Buzzard did we both read the same book?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Buzzard did we both read the same book?

I quoted an Amazon review. I quit reading comic books as a teenager.

Be patient, Alan, I will look at the book again and attempt to answer your question in detail.

May take awhile, I've got more important things to do.

Like visit with family, go to the casino, work on cars, play ladder ball with my pal.

One of these days when I am bored to tears I'll pick up that tome, scan it, and critique.

Wow, it'll be like I'm in sixth grade again.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Still waiting for someone to post how Sharpshooter has the physics of dice influencing wrong?

Been reading a lot of the usual comments but no one points out what's incorrect about his book?

Well of course I cant criticize the physics because I haven'read the book.
Wont read the book unless you give me something.
catch 22
This is the 1st dice thread I've posted in. Saw sharpshooter and well, its a really cool name.

anyway, biting
Even if he has a technique, how can a human throw the exact same way every time.
Air currents, AC, people breathing, people walking by, temp flucutaions around the table due crowd or no crowd.
this all affects the trip through the air.
but the biggie
The back wall is not flat, it just boggles the mind to hit that wall with pin point accuracy to eliminate that variable.
From an amateur player that dabbles in craps, the variables are mind boggling

Now I am curious, how does he cancel out the physical variables???

I have to agree with Alan, arguing DI on this board is like hitting your head against the wall. I believe all Sharpshooter was saying in the book was that his techniques could reduce the occurrence of the seven compared to random results over the long run giving the player a slight edge (although he could still lose in the long run due to his betting strategy). DI doesn’t result in control of the dice but rather a good toss can in the long run give you a slight edge over random result. Hell, just the act of setting the dice probably has some minute edge over random tossing. I saw Sharpshooter toss in Vegas around 2002 in Vegas and he had a nice toss but I believe due to family issues he had to stop pursuing the craps endeavor (although recently he was reported to toss with obie1 in Detroit and did ok).

We're finally getting somewhere:

The bottom line is that the subject of DI is fillef with misinformation and conjecture and folklore and myths and disbelief is the result. As I said initially few have the skill to pull it off. But if you understood what it really is and how it really works your comments would be different and the discussions would be different. It is art and science.

If it is art and science ,what odds will you give me against any DI. I will throw them under my legs or over my shoulder. Less 7's, more 7's in a 100 rolls. Whatever.

Quick, somebody help Alan change the subject. SKILL, my ass !

Quote: Buzzard

If it is art and science ,what odds will you give me against any DI. I will throw them under my legs or over my shoulder. Less 7's, more 7's in a 100 rolls. Whatever.

Quick, somebody help Alan change the subject. SKILL, my ass !

In general, I dont like Buzzard's style. But this time I have to give him thumbs up. and up and upppppppppppppppp

Buzzard I asked you and everyone else to tell me how Sharpshooter's work is wrong. This is not a challenge about who has the biggest schlong. I concede -- your schlong is bigger than mine.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Buzzard I asked you and everyone else to tell me how Sharpshooter's work is wrong. This is not a challenge about who has the biggest schlong. I concede -- your schlong is bigger than mine.

His theory on what is needed or how it may be possible (just like someone mentioned the theory of time travel) may not be wrong. However its humanly impossible to do.

Quote: DanMahoney

I believe due to family issues he had to stop pursuing the craps endeavor.

I see a non random pattern here with all the so called great DI's.

You are right...the non random pattern in this case is called life. I believe his child had a serious health problem so he may have devoted some time to this issue.

Quote: DanMahoney

You are right...the non random pattern in this case is called life. I believe his child had a serious health problem so he may have devoted some time to this issue.

Its way more prevalent in DI then any other legit form of AP. I rarely see this happen to successful VP players.


Some people have legit reasons I'm sure. I do understand heath reasons as being legit. My heart goes out to anyone who has to deal with this.

There are so many others that just make up BS reasons.(I love the retirement reason the most). The real reasons are, eventually the law of averages catch up and they realize it does not work. Most people can't admit they were wrong all this time. So many people looked up to them and counted on them, they Bought books, took classes, invested etc etc. Imagine the hate they would endure if they had to come clean.

Quote: AxelWolf

Its way more prevalent in DI then any other legit form of AP. I rarely see this happen to successful VP players.


Some people have legit reasons I'm sure. I do understand heath reasons as being legit. My heart goes out to anyone who has to deal with this.

There are so many others that just make up BS reasons.(I love the retirement reason the most). The real reasons are, eventually the law of averages catch up and they realize it does not work. Most people can't admit they were wrong all this time. So many people looked up to them and counted on them, they Bought books, took classes, invested etc etc. Imagine the hate they would endure if they had to come clean.

Sometimes truth is ugly. Quote:"You can't handle the truth".

So I guess the odds are 1.0000 to 1.0000 on me against any great DI ?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Buzzard did we both read the same book?

Isn't if funny how one person can read so much into something that they want to believe in. I'm always totally amazed how somebody can be con into something that so obvious to other people! When it comes to someone being a DI, the first question you should ask, is what do you do for your day job?
Second question you should ask is how much money do you make teaching a class to become a DI compared to what you actually take off the craps tables?

Every book that has been written about becoming a DI paints a false picture. Sure there are a few guys in this country that can win at craps,...because they put in thousands of hours of practice.

The only problem with that is, they can't win every time they go to the tables! Common sense would tell you that they are not taken hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off the craps tables. These guys that are teaching you on how to become a DI, are making waaaaaaay more money off of selling you a class. Think about it for one minute, if they were making all that money on craps table why would they be teaching you?

The physics of shooting craps is very simple, grade school science should be enough for anybody to question what your reading in sharpshooter's book! You can't deny what you're seeing when you're watching any slow-motion video of what really happens to the dice when they hit the table!

There are always going to be people that will say something is not true when the facts are right in front of them. They refuse to live in the real world, they rather believe in fiction, because it gives them a false hope of winning at the craps table.

This conversation will go on forever, only because there are people that want to live in Lala land. I still say, that if you're going to play craps, it pays to take a class from a school, that will not allow anyone that is writing a bunch of fiction on their craps board. Now that's if they also teach good betting practices to go along with shooting. Knowing the cold hard facts about the game and what you can expect when your shooting goes a long way into helping you stand a chance at winning.

Now this may sound like I'm contradicting myself, but what I'm trying to do is to get everybody to realize that you could put in thousands of hours of practicing and still lose at craps. There are days that nothing you do will turn out right. If you don't have the betting skills you are going home a loser.

Now for everybody out there you can not compare shooting craps to any other sport or game out there. You are not pitching a round ball, you are not shooting a round pool ball, you are not throwing darts, you are not shooting a gun. Dice are square cubes that bounce all over the place when they hit the table! We now know that for sure by watching slow-motion videos of the dice hitting the tables.

We are not machines, we are fallible human beings, that can't be perfect every time we make a shot. Just like when we are looking at optical illusions, our minds can be tricked in many ways. If you happen to be on the table when a so-called DI is getting lucky, you can be tricked into believing that he does it every time he is shooting, look some casinos actually believe it, because of all the fiction that is been written!

If you followed the same shooter around for a year you would soon find out that he needs to get lucky just like everybody else. How many times have we all read where Alan has said he thinks he saw only one guy that he would have considered to be a so-called DI, now I have one question for Alan, how many copies of Sharpshooter's book do you think was sold? If his book was the greatest thing that ever happened in the craps playing world, why is it that you only saw one guy that you thought might have been what you considered a DI?

If everything he said in his book worked, good old common sense, would tell you that over all the years you have been playing craps you would have ran into more so-called DI's,.What happened Alan, did his book fail everybody that read it? Or will you admit to everyone on this board, that your one shooter was probably just getting lucky when you had the good fortune of running into him when he was on a lucky roll?

This says it all in my book :

" Sharpshooter, as Christopher K. Pawlicki, is the author of Get the Edge at Roulette; How to Predict Where the Ball will Land, published in 2001. "
SAY NO MORE

Sharpshooter teamed with Jerry Patterson to publish Sharpshooter/PARR, the first Dice Control Course. MORE ! ! !

A few direct quotes from Patterson's flyers:

"The purpose of this letter is to convince you that you can win at craps and roulette. That a well-designed money management method can overcome the house advantage. And that after 10 years of research I have found the methods that will do just that....

The house advantage at craps is about 1.4% (if you only play the pass line taking full odds) and about 2.13% at roulette (if you only play the outside numbers). But, I have become convinced that a workable and well-designed money management system can overcome the house advantage. And that is what I am offering you....

A player makes his point and a round of cheers greets his win. The next point is established. A few more throws and he sevens out. Groans replace the cheers.'' Meanwhile what are you doing at this table? You are quietly grinding out a profit. The other players are winning, losing, winning, losing.. but you are taking down units of profit in a very consistent fashion....

Are you beginning to get the idea? We are talking about a very disciplined approach to grinding out our profits.... We are content to grind out a profit. Table after table. Hour after hour....

At roulette we are exploiting a natural bias that occurs at every roulette table. And we are grinding out a profit at most tables. There are no table selection factors. You can use ROUGE ET COLONNE at any roulette table...

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/owneyes.htm

Is Sharpshooter a resident of Nigeria ?

I think sharpshooters physics is just fine. But he doesn't take into the real REACTION of the dice and what they do after they hit the felt and diamonds or below the diamonds. For me his following measurements are not accurate:

Angle of Release for flight
Angle of The dice touchdown onto the felt for the first bounce.
Position of the dice landing.
Backspin Rotational values.

In theory its good. When you see it in action it also looks really good! But I'm not sure it's very effective way of influencing the dice. In my opinion and this is of course only my opinion if your dice are flying at the height of the rail or higher you're doing it wrong. If your dice have even more than a 90 degree angle backspin your doing it wrong.

There is a reason why dice sliding works. There's no bouncing and rolling around...

I think the toss is a 45 degree angle, not 90. Does that change anything?

I started this thread hoping someone with an engineering background similar to Sharpshooter would analyze his theory.
Everything else has been said over and over. For example "DIs can't win all the time" versus "even a great ball player might only have a 300 (30%) batting average."

Quote: AlanMendelson

I think the toss is a 45 degree angle, not 90. Does that change anything?

Yes the problem for me is the 45 degree angled toss.

I was saying anything more with 90 degree angle of backspin is also problematic.

Alan, I've put those physics into computer simulations and it's not pretty! :(
Using sharpshooters diagrams I found on the old website , when and where those dice hit the diamonds its game over.

Give me a precise set of rules and guidelines and I'll put them into the simulation and I'll show you visually what happens.

-N

Edit: Here is the diagram on his website, what I based my simulation on.

Also Sharpshooter's book doesn't go into enough detail of the physics. It's more of a common sense / high school physics class approach.

If you want a real model you'd have to consider

The coefficient of Restitution of all Objects. Dice ,Rubber Felt Table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution

The Static and Kinetic Friction of all objects. Dice, rubber, table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction#Coefficient_of_friction

These properties will affect everything in the way the dice move and bounce and react. It will also effect your throw.

Sharpshooter is generalizing. The generalizations work terrifically when you're using Huge Yellow Dice (GTC)

Nickolay411 did you examine hitting the wall under the first row of pyramids? Thanks for your work.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Nickolay411 did you examine hitting the wall under the first row of pyramids? Thanks for your work.

Take a look and see.

http://nickolation.com/tests/shot_comparison_01.mov


Two shots tossed from the same position, Six feet behind the wall. Same angle of release and same velocity. The difference is in the backspin and landing zones. Even without slow motion it's easy to spot which shot looks less chaotic. I am hesitant to say controlled/influenced just so people don't jump on me!

I don't have a problem with parr/gtc but I just think it is much harder to achieve results when you're shooting straight into the diamonds. And also adding an extra element of backspin... How does one control the precise rotational value of the backspin? Sound's like an extra hurdle to jump over. From my sims even just a slight deviation in the landing angle when applying backspin and the greater the chaos. I don't see many if not at all any 'on axis' shots this way...

Quote: AlanMendelson

Nickolay411 did you examine hitting the wall under the first row of pyramids? Thanks for your work.

So...DI only works in Egyptian casinos? All the DI's must be at Luxor

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