"Golden Touch".....downloaded video....
Should I continue or is it just another sales presentation aka "infomercial"?
Quote: Dicenor33Go to any casino, my friend. You'll see almost every table has a DI. They stand next to a stickman and they try to keep both dice parallel. See how much money they make and you get the answer to your question. These people have a dream to win a lot of money, see if it comes true. Let us know of your findings.
The video was, at least in the beginning, making it all look like a serious activity? Set the dice, don't release them but let them fall off your fingers by their own gravitational force, amazing stuff but got boring quick. My question remains, force myself through the entire thing or just once again chalk it up to an infomercial on changing random events? Had/if you saw the dice when they hit the felt fly like horseflies(as they always do) you yourself would be knocking your head against a urine soaked concrete wall wondering how someone could say such a ricochet was controlled and avoids the seven.....
Frank and the Dominator
Frank Scoblete sometimes posts here; maybe he'll tell how "we've beaten the casinos for 20 years."
Hey, it was on TV, so it must be true, right?
I mean, they wouldn't make this stuff up, would they?
Oh, that is your decision whether to continue with it or not, but it is indeed an infomercial and if they ain't at least giving you free drinks, don't bother watching it.Quote: NokTangShould I continue or is it just another sales presentation aka "infomercial"?
As suggested, go to an actual table and see the real world. All those people who paid for seminars should have used that money to buy in and have a good time instead.
Quote: MrVBanned, for winning too much at craps.
Frank and the Dominator
Frank Scoblete sometimes posts here; maybe he'll tell how "we've beaten the casinos for 20 years."
Hey, it was on TV, so it must be true, right?
I mean, they wouldn't make this stuff up, would they?
An excellent link. Thanks.
Quote: nickolay411If you've never watched it then maybe it's worth it. Either way I can assure you there are people winning at craps and those methods are not in GTC or anywhere on forums/dvds and they may not totally be considered fair play for some. In the end it's all a matter of what the casino will permit. If you stake out the tables for a Dice influencer maybe you'll see something you haven't seen before... A lot of different and unexpected things can happen in the wild.
The only method would be to cheat in some fashion. Not many casinos will have people good enough to "catch" a real pro. If it can happen at the Wynn(I refer to dice sliding) it can and does happen other places. One would assume the Wynn has some of the most professional and best people at all levels. However, your point is valid and respected. Gidday.
Quote: nickolay411If you stake out the tables for a Dice influencer maybe you'll see something you haven't seen before... A lot of different and unexpected things can happen in the wild.
Why weren't these DI's, these alleged Bigfeet of the Bones, trying to hide their mastery from the crews?
Heck, Frank and Dom claim they were barred from ENTIRE STATES because of their dice setting / dice influencing skills, so surely they would want to remain unnoticed?
If a casual observer can figure out a shooter "in the wild" is in fact a DI experiencing true AP, wouldn't the casino notice as well?
Why reach for the stars, only to fall into the sun?
Quote: MrVWhy weren't these DI's, these alleged Bigfeet of the Bones, trying to hide their mastery from the crews?
That's a good point. And that's exactly what I was implying, to be able to look beyond the GTC throw that you see so many have taken up as their holy dice influencing savior.
All this on axis, double pitch, seven to rolls ration lingo it's not worthless and has its place but it's also not the only way to play the game. For me the GTC school of thought isn't the end all be all of craps. Maybe start with a blank slate and just like an AP in blackjack keep your eyes open for a possible Advantage play you haven't thought/seen before. You might come up with something and when you do why not like an AP blackjack player use cover and cover plays. I sure would!
I think where "we" are with Dice influencing/Influencers is that hey we found this new Toy, and we want to play with it, and show off how we can throw it and spin it. But that's all were doing, playing and showing off. Were not effectivley doing anything I would say almost none are making any money or beating the game. Because that's what were in it for, either the challenge or the reward. Maybe both Right?
Now I'm not saying I have the answer, but I think going back and reading the older literature (Scarne on dice and Ed marlos Shoot the Works) one could use some creativity and out of the box thinking to bring something new to to the game of craps. Something the eye in the sky isn't looking for, just maybe?
Quote: nickolay411I think going back and reading the old literature one could use some creativity and out of the box thinking to bring something new to to the game of craps. Something the eye in the sky isn't looking for, just maybe?
Like what, telekinesis?
Astrology?
Rabbit's foot?
Looks like you need to have an empty head to be a DI.
Quote: MrVLike what, telekinesis?.
Haha. Well at least your starting to ask questions... I'd say thats a start.
Since blackjack ap play is pretty a mature form of art. And I consider "ap craps" in its infancy. I'd like to pose a question. What's the equivalent of counting, spooking, hole-carding, ace-sequencing, shuffletracking and team play in the game of CRAPS?
Is there really truly nothing?
Edit: Here's an entertaining article...
http://www.insidescience.org/blog/2012/09/12/dice-rolls-are-not-completely-random
We all know dice influencing works, if it didn't we wouldn't have the diamonds on the backwall of the craps table. You could also say that there wouldn't be a no roll call, sliding wouldn't be illegal. Truth is yes dice can be influenced.
Now when CSMs came around the majority in the blackjack community said oh crap they can't be beaten. Then Standford Wong went out the beat them. And even with the latest one2six machines they are still being beaten today. And of course we won't hear about it until ten years from now when the play is over. It'll be written in a book, all over forums yada yada.
Couldn't the diamonds just be the craps players hurdle? The delusional empty headed craps players hurdle!
BTW i'm not trying to sell anything. :P
Quote: IbeatyouracesWe do??? Prove it!!!
Somehow this is related. I'm just not sure how.
Quote: IbeatyouracesWe do??? Prove it!!!
Maybe you didn't read what I posted. Blanket rolls, whip and helicopter shots are all proven to influence dice! Watch Steve Forte's gambling protection series. The section on dice, Steve Forte shows several shots that work and have been known to work. Some even hit walls...How could you say that is not influencing the dice?
Here is a link to the whole section he starts showing the various shots 28 minutes in.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQyNzMxODYw.html
Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd not one of them is a legitimate roll
Oh you work for the Nevada Gaming Commission? And you can tell us all about the shots/rolls which are legal and illegal? Please proceed I do want to hear!
From my experience each casino is different on what they allow and disallow. There are casinos all over the world and laws are different everywhere...
Truth is you don't have any real say on what a legitimate roll is...Neither do I. We only have our opinions. But the real difference is I am out there trying new/old things and pushing so called boundaries.
Quote: nickolay411I am out there trying new/old things and pushing so called boundaries.
OK, I'll bite: what are you doing, specifically?
Quote: IbeatyouracesNoone said you shouldn't.
Cool! Thanks. :)
Quote: MrVOK, I'll bite: what are you doing, specifically?
MrV! I'm trying random and new things. But since you asked I'll give you a hint on one play in a PM. It's not a throwing style or a grip to be clear...
Edit: MrV you do not accept private messages. Let me know if you change your mind!
Quote: Dicenor33Go to any casino, my friend. You'll see almost every table has a DI. They stand next to a stickman and they try to keep both dice parallel. See how much money they make and you get the answer to your question. These people have a dream to win a lot of money, see if it comes true. Let us know of your findings.
this is the problem: people try to keep the dice parallel but don't. However, if you happen to find someone who can keep the dice parallel and has a controlled throw, and keeps the toss soft... well those guys really do win a lot of money.
Now, for the record, I've now played with three who fit. I've talked about the surgeon from Washington and the mystery player at Caesars... but a few months back I met the third who I believe is a true "dice influencer." It was magical. And everyone at the table won money thanks to him.
Quote: nickolay411
We all know dice influencing works, if it didn't we wouldn't have the diamonds on the backwall of the craps table. You could also say that there wouldn't be a no roll call, sliding wouldn't be illegal. Truth is yes dice can be influenced.
that is the truth. Dice influencing works... up until you hit the diamonds or the walls or even the felt. That doesn't mean someone can't possibly overcome the obstacles of the diamonds, or the wall, or the felt and that's the important point.
Everyone can influence the dice to a certain degree. I can influence the dice so that both stay on the table about 99% of my throws. I can also influence the dice so that both come to rest within six inches of the back wall about 85% of the time. And that's my claim to dice influencing. However, I am sure there are others who have more influence than I do.
You critics should really keep your minds open. You can't influence or control dice but that doesn't mean others can't.
At the same time, people should be realistic about their own abilities. I know I can't realistically control dice, and I know my own limits on influencing dice (I keep them on the table and with a soft throw keep them close to the back wall) but even I have a problem with the basic of keeping the dice parallel and rotating evenly.
But I have seen a few who really can pull it off.
Quote: AlanMendelsonbut a few months back I met the third who I believe is a true "dice influencer." It was magical.
That's awesome. Hopefully you can play with that guy in the future?
Quote: AlanMendelsonBut I have seen a few who really can pull it off.
The Few.
The Proud.
The Gambling Gods.
Quote: nickolay411That's awesome. Hopefully you can play with that guy in the future?
Shouldn't have to as so much free money was there to be given out to the players. It isn't playing, it's just raking in the chips and going to the cashier keeping it under $10,000.usd per cash out I guess? Easily accomplished.
Quote: nickolay411That's awesome. Hopefully you can play with that guy in the future?
We exchanged business cards. He frequently plays in Vegas but rarely at Caesars where I met him.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYeah. They play with someone once or twice and get convinced. I've got an "S" word for those people. Again, if it truly worked, these people would not be here arguing about it but would be out playing and keeping their yaps shut.
Yes it works, but no one says it works perfectly. You "critics" seem to think that unless it works "perfectly" and a shooter can roll a hard 8 on demand, that DI doesn't work.
I suggest you all step back and take a deep breath.
Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament.
Does it work well enough to have a +EV in the long run? That's all I want to know, that's all that really matters. We will probably never know because all the so called expert shooters never stay for the long run. The people who are highly involved are selling books and classes, that's how they make their money on DI. The rest of them are low rollers will BS stories.Quote: AlanMendelsonYes it works, but no one says it works perfectly. You "critics" seem to think that unless it works "perfectly" and a shooter can roll a hard 8 on demand, that DI doesn't work.
I suggest you all step back and take a deep breath.
Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament.
Quote: AlanMendelsonYes it works, but no one says it works perfectly. You "critics" seem to think that unless it works "perfectly" and a shooter can roll a hard 8 on demand, that DI doesn't work. I suggest you all step back and take a deep breath.
*steps back, breathes deeply*
Alan, you've stepped in a minefield here, claiming definitively that DI "works."
How do you KNOW that it "works?"
You saw a couple guys with a sweet, soft throw make a few bucks at a craps table.
What exactly did you see them do that convinced you that chance was not involved, and that they had a true skill?
Specifically, how did the dice move and behave from the moment they were released until they stopped moving?
Presumably a DI would have them behave very consistently.
Alan, if in fact you know it works, why don't you put in the effort / practice to master it yourself?
Maybe then you would want to give up VP and go home with the one that brought you to the party.
Quote: AxelWolfDoes it work well enough to have a +EV in the long run? That's all I want to know,
I don't know. There are too few players who have demonstrated what appears to be DI. But on those few occasions the players won money.
Remember I only count THREE real DIs.
I only wish my hands were steady enough.
Quote: AlanMendelsonMrV what made these guys different was the ability to duplicate a controlled throw... a throw and bounce with similar characteristics. That's something I am yet to see on any video here or on YouTube.
What you described is what I would expect a "true" DI to demonstrate.
Hmmm ...
Quote: MrVWhat you described is what I would expect a "true" DI to demonstrate.
Hmmm ...
Here's the point: a lot of people have claimed to be DIs and they're not. Don't let the charlatans mislead you. There are a few who are the real thing. That's all I'm saying.
Quote: AlanMendelsonHere's the point: a lot of people have claimed to be DIs and they're not. Don't let the charlatans mislead you. There are a few who are the real thing. That's all I'm saying.
I am saying, and have said many times, that there are NONE that are the real thing. I'm willing to bet against them. I would say anyone who purports they exist is a charlatan. You claim to be an 'eyewitness' to a true DI. Think how many eyewitnesses there are in the Bigfoot arena........
More "scientific" evidence in Bigfoot.Quote: SOOPOOThink how many eyewitnesses there are in the Bigfoot arena........
He won $31,000. Only a 10x buy-in. About 1 in 6 rolls were shorties. Very minimal bounce.
One of the more impressive sessions I have seen that I think would have been enough for proof of DI for most folks.
This was at the Begllagio a couple weeks ago.
But I still don't know.
He played the part even to my discriminating eye. Including being modest and claiming, "I never have to play craps again." Implying that was as lucky as he had ever gotten.
Boxman and the entire crew were dead quiet for the entire session. $50 table.
A few days later, and I saw a guy walk with over $100,000 and he just very obviously got lucky.
The only way there was a question this guy might have been doing it from my view was the shorties. His rolls were super weak and he was getting paid no problems!
GO GO BELLAGIO!!!
Perfect, and very happy you feel that way, and i hope every casino there is that
has a craps table reads your post.
Dicesetter
Quote: SOOPOOI am saying, and have said many times, that there are NONE that are the real thing. I'm willing to bet against them. I would say anyone who purports they exist is a charlatan. You claim to be an 'eyewitness' to a true DI. Think how many eyewitnesses there are in the Bigfoot arena........
By all means... bet your money your way. But when I am with one of those three guys (one of whom I've played with three times -- the surgeon) I'll bet my money my way.
So much for any dice SKILL.
Quote: BuzzardI just love it when dice influencers compare their skill to tiger woods. Well. The odds on me beating tiger woods on around of golf is at least 10,000 to 1. I will take a mere 10 to 1 at any head to head dice challenge. And I will throw the dice over my shoulder or under my legs.
So much for any dice SKILL.
Interesting statistic you brought up about playing Tiger. Maybe one in 10,000 shooters is a semi-DI. Maybe one in fifty thousand really is.
Quote: AlanMendelsonInteresting statistic you brought up about playing Tiger. Maybe one in 10,000 shooters is a semi-DI. Maybe one in fifty thousand really is.
Or Maybe none, except for this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMUKGTkiWik
What baffles the snarf out of me is all these guys admit they are playing a
game then cant get any good at.
Dicesetter
