TheWolf713
TheWolf713
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May 31st, 2014 at 10:01:10 PM permalink
With the Odds in your favor, and the skill of "Dice Influence" in your hands, why wouldn't the best Craps shooter ever not shoot for the 7?

Do you feel this is possible, or is it just nonsense? Why wouldn't a full fledged sharpshooter not attempt this?
What are your thoughts
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter" -Mark Walberg pain and Gain
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 31st, 2014 at 10:37:51 PM permalink
Quote: TheWolf713

With the Odds in your favor, and the skill of "Dice Influence" in your hands, why wouldn't the best Craps shooter ever not shoot for the 7?

Do you feel this is possible, or is it just nonsense? Why wouldn't a full fledged sharpshooter not attempt this?
What are your thoughts

The best dice shooter is some real lady who played for the first time ever she even beat a fictional character who had fictional numbers.

DI = fiction.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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June 1st, 2014 at 12:08:52 AM permalink
I don't think the casino would want anyone so good with the dice to throw and throwing 7s every time wouldn't be an optimal strategy anyways. If someone had the talent maybe they would quit once they were satisfied to do what they really wanted to do when they didn't have money.
I am a robot.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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June 1st, 2014 at 1:04:23 AM permalink
It is my understanding that dice setters DO try to get more sevens - but only on come out rolls. They try to avoid sevens on non come outs.

I'm not gonna argue wether it's possible, but assuming it is, it's only changing the odds slightly.

A successful dice infuencer can make the dice spin a certain way which greatly increases the odds of one of four faces one each die landing face up. Knowing which four faces, it's a simple matter to set / turn the dice so these four faces, plus those four faces, either increase or decrease the odds of a seven.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Ahigh
Ahigh
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June 1st, 2014 at 9:23:08 AM permalink
I collected enough samples to come up with sets that are taylored to the comeout roll. There's an evaluation routine that looks at all 576 sets for all the possible weighted outcomes for the comeout and gives you the best set.

That's a more advanced thing than most believers know how to do, frankly. And recording both dice (left and right) independently is key to a good comeout roll set as it's usually not a hardway set like when you're trying to avoid sevens.

Most folks who believe in this stuff don't have a clue what to do on the comeout for their particular throw and they usually don't record left and right die outcomes either.
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JB85
JB85
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June 1st, 2014 at 1:43:31 PM permalink
My response assumes the op is asking about shooting from the don't, not shooting for 7 on the CO roll. Yes the 7 is the most frequently occurring number but it pays less on each hit. So if you have an edge, it will essentially be a wash in terms of dollars earned. So the two biggest reasons that most people don't shoot from the wrong side. 1) You lose the dice when you 7 out. Not a big deal if you are by yourself but those opportunities aren't always available. 2) It eliminates the possibility of the monster roll(theoretically).
speedycrap
speedycrap
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June 1st, 2014 at 3:10:16 PM permalink
I wonder whether you know much about craps.
Making money on craps is not to make a lot of points. Making a lot of numbers will make you big bucks without ANY heat.
MrV
MrV
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June 1st, 2014 at 3:36:00 PM permalink
If I could control the dice, I'd set for two or twelve and relish my 30-1 payoff.

Yeah, baby!
"What, me worry?"
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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June 1st, 2014 at 4:07:07 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

I don't think the casino would want anyone so good with the dice to throw and throwing 7s every time wouldn't be an optimal strategy anyways. If someone had the talent maybe they would quit once they were satisfied to do what they really wanted to do when they didn't have money.

On the contrary, it sounds like nirvana for don't bettors.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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June 1st, 2014 at 4:18:40 PM permalink
In theory, the most skilled shooter should be able to INCREASE the frequency of a narrow band of specific outcomes. Betting a bet with the narrowest set of paying outcomes and the highest pay multiple while still keeping the house edge low is the best way to maximize the player edge per roll.

This generally means buying one of either the four or the ten and not worrying about any other bets.

This is all theory, and it does neglect the practice of a casino getting wise to the fact that you keep hitting the same number over and over with a higher than expected frequency.

The reason not to bet the HOPS is that the edge per roll can be too high.

Buying the four you can get your edge per roll down to as low as 0.33% per roll. It's one of the easier things to defeat in theory compared to having to learn a large number of sets to target a large number of targets that results from only looking to take advantage of zero house edge odds bets.

Just having a good throw is only part of the equation. You also have to analyze which set to pair with which throw when targeting specific outcomes.

If you get a high enough frequency on even one outcome from a throw, you can change your set and bet the four pretty easily without having to know too much.

I have to reiterate this all over again, though, this is still all theory.

People who suggest things like getting paid at a higher frequency are generally systems players who are trying to defeat randomness with a system. These players all fail eventually, and it's generally well known that betting systems designed to defeat truly random outcomes will fail given enough time.

Trying to get paid too frequently is a warning sign that you might not understand how to gamble and are giving up a chance to win in exchange for frequency of payment.

The flip side (being patient for lack of success in the short run in getting paid) is less often understood to be an integral part of the theory exploiting an edge in craps.
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dicesitter
dicesitter
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June 2nd, 2014 at 5:34:45 AM permalink
AHIGH




I am sure your aware that there are shooters that target outside numbers and further
that you dont have to have much variance from random to make a profit on them.

Over time on this and other sites we have seen discussed the idea that a person can hit
more hardways than random or 6 & 8 more than random. whether they can or not, i dont really
care, but if a person can in fact hit more of one number than they should in a random game
it may as well be a 4 or 10.

The 4,5,9,10 are the numbers that pay the best, yet nearly every player takes a pass line
bet and 6 & 8 sits there while the shooter throws 3 4's or 4 9's.

In terms of the original question of throwing 7's for a profit is a reasonable question and would
seem to make sense. However you almost need to make it every roll. YOu bet the 3 way you
lose when you dont, you bet heavy on the pass line , you done hit a 7 you can lose on 12 and 2 and 3
plus you have to make your pass number not to lose the line bet.

To me, playing when 4 & 10 are hitting is as much fun as catching a boat loand of fish.

Dicesetter
Ahigh
Ahigh
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June 2nd, 2014 at 9:15:28 AM permalink
I should add to the discussion that I generally don't play the game this way at all myself and I rarely buy the four or the ten. I generally NEVER place the five or the nine. Not because buying numbers is a bad idea, I just don't happen to do it much myself.

This is all just based on the theory of what number should you target if you can control the dice.

I actually came up with a difficulty rating to demonstrate the theoretical difficulty in overcoming the house edge for a combination of bets based on the assumption that a controlled shot was possible. As an example, the most difficult thing in my list was to hop each easy way for $1 ($15 total) where you profit $1 30/36 rolls and lose $15 on the remaining six rolls. There is probably some other combination of bets that is even more difficult to profit while still leaving an actual opportunity to come out ahead, but trying to get paid more than 5/6ths of the time is the general approach that people take to the game. Doing it all through easy-hops is just the stupidest (and hardest) way to do it as you increase the number of events in your attempt.

You can keep your edge low and try to get paid for anything but a crap if you make a bigger come bet than all the money on the felt, and you have money on every other number already (pays 32/36 rolls) while still keeping the average edge per roll low after getting a bunch of travelled come bets.

Generally speaking, however, trying to increase the frequency of payment is going to hurt you no matter how little you are expecting to get paid as a ratio of your risk.

Laying numbers on crapless is the extreme-end of trying to dodge specific outcomes, and if you did get good at avoiding one or two specific outcomes, that's the only logical place to take your game if you are controlling to NOT roll a narrow band of outcomes.
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dicesitter
dicesitter
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June 2nd, 2014 at 11:37:53 AM permalink
Ahigh



I agree we dont play the same way, and in the end it does not matter to anyone else how we play,
the money we bet we earn and the money we win is great , but what we lose we have also earned.

You seem to like to hit and go or bet big and win or lose. I dont play that way, but i cant say it
would not work for you, simply because i dont play that way. I do best when i see what my roll
is like, and table conditions are like and try to adjust to what i see and then manage to get
a nice roll or atleast be on a nice roll and make a profit, then i leave.

I guess what ever works on that day. We see in fishing tournaments each year where the winner
calls the night before and says they cant fin any fish and then just guess and win the darn thing
when others are on the fish the day before and they get there and they are gone. There are times
luck is better than skill, thats life.

dicesetter
Ahigh
Ahigh
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June 2nd, 2014 at 12:06:36 PM permalink
Quote: dicesitter

You seem to...



You seem to infer I play the same way based on observing my play for a few minutes.

Good thing I didn't lose when you watched, otherwise you'd be saying "you seem to lose."
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dicesitter
dicesitter
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June 5th, 2014 at 7:31:56 AM permalink
AHIGH



You certainly know that is a false statement. I am not discussing what i observed, i am meerly
reflecting back on your many statements of play where you suggested you throw a time or two
and pass the dice, or hit a number and make a profit and go to another casino.

In addition i did not say there was anything wrong with your play, i just suggested a fact and
that is that we do not play the same type of game.

In terms of what i viewed the time i did see you play, i saw a player that throws the dice basically
the same way and they hit and bounce all over the table. That is not unusual, most people play like
that.

So again there is nothing to take offense for, we both play however we play.

I hope you win more than you lose, either way, i wont make any more or lose any more regardless
how anyone else plays, so i would rather they win.

dicesetter
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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June 5th, 2014 at 1:25:15 PM permalink
Assuming you were able to influence the dice, and I am guessing the best way is to avoid 7's after the come out, would be to keep making Come bets and laying odds. Suppose you were good at rolling 8s, then you might press the odds after a repeat. But the main thing is having a good roll isn't something unexpected - it does happen and it wouldn't look suspicious if you then won a lot. Throwing more 8's than normal and only betting 8's looks very suspicious, but letting the bet increase due to pressing and hitting a lucky streak is something most people do.

For the record I have no idea how to influence dice and always welly them across the table, ensuring they bounce around a lot.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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June 5th, 2014 at 1:33:33 PM permalink
I don't recall ever disclosing any standard methodology of playing that I use on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.

I have disclosed several different betting strategies that are designed to take advantage of a theoretical player-edge roll, but none of which are my standard method of play. And for what it's worth, I don't really have any standard method of play at all. I am, as the dealers will tell you, "all over the place" and unpredictable.
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VegasDiceController
VegasDiceController
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June 21st, 2014 at 12:34:58 PM permalink
Quote: TheWolf713

With the Odds in your favor, and the skill of "Dice Influence" in your hands, why wouldn't the best Craps shooter ever not shoot for the 7?

Do you feel this is possible, or is it just nonsense? Why wouldn't a full fledged sharpshooter not attempt this?
What are your thoughts



Exactly what Ive been doing for a few months now. Lay all numbers behind on the CO Roll to Win increments of 20 since the house VIG is based off of a $20 WIN.

So laying 4/10 for $40 each to Win $20....Laying 5/9 for $30 to Win $20 and laying 6/8 $24 to win $20. A CO 7 and you Win 6 bets of $20 ($120) less the $6 vig for a NET of $114, while only putting at risk 1 bet of a box number. If you take into account the 6/8 should roll more than the 4/10, your risk now becomes $24 +$1 vig=$25 risk to win $114. You could Lose 4 bets and Win 1 bet and still be ahead.

So get good at throwing C.O 7's. Another option is skip 6/8 and take that $24 and add to lay of 5/9 and add $6 ea to make it a $60 to win 40. Yes a hit on 5 and 9 would lose 2 bets but a hit on the 6/8 would net zero and you would take down Lays after the 6/8 rolled.

One could pull the 6/8 of $24 each to putting an additional $40 to win $20 on 4 or 10 additional $$$. Pick the one that's lost the most of the 2. Now you have an extra $9 to deal with and you could use $2-3 to Hop that hard 4 etc. So only number that could screw you would be 2 # of possible 36, so you would reduce your risk even more.

So you roll would look like this...

Do a Doey/Dont for $table minimum...Lay 4 for $80 to win $40 and Lay 10 for $40 to Win 20, Lay the 5&9 for $30 ea to Win $20. Vig is $2.
Leave the 6/8 open and set for a 7. A CO 7 you win a net of $96.
A C.O 6/8 and you Lose zero. You now can take odds on the 6/8 of $10 and your risk to Win $100 is $10 or 1/10 /10% of possible $100 Win on a CO7.
A C.O 5 or 9 and you Lose $31. A C.O easy 10 and you Lose $40 ( a 5% chance to Lose) ... a C.O easy 4 and you lose $80 (a 5% chance to Lose).

So perfect throwing C.O 7's, do a doey/dont P/DP and lay 4,5,9,10, Hop the H4 for $3 and the hop the H10 for $1. You are in a good position to hit multible 7's and when you do hit a point box number, if it happens to be a 6 or 8 you reduce risk and house edge even more.

When tracking the table, when i see 5 consecutive box # rolls without a C.O 7, I look to Lay the back Wall like I posted above. if I lose 3 bets, (now 8 consecutive box CO rolls) I bump above senario up to win $40 instead of $20.

7 Winner...Words to my ears...
http://www.trendsettercraps.com
98Clubs
98Clubs
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June 21st, 2014 at 11:01:06 PM permalink
If you're talkin a guy that can Come-Out 7 at a high rate, yah that would be great. But if not on the come-out, i'll take fiddy-six yo.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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June 21st, 2014 at 11:58:35 PM permalink
Quote: TheWolf713

With the Odds in your favor, and the skill of "Dice Influence" in your hands, why wouldn't the best Craps shooter ever not shoot for the 7?

He would, if he existed, because that would be the least suspicious and most profitable way to make use of his skills. New shooter.... three or four sevens in a row,,, parlay it ....then make a point and hit it. You've already made good money and the whole table is happy and no one is yet suspicious.

Trouble is: Dice Influence only exists in our desires.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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June 22nd, 2014 at 1:07:55 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Trouble is: Dice Influence only exists in our desires.



And in the fearful minds of the break-in-houses.
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TheWolf713
TheWolf713
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June 22nd, 2014 at 4:12:12 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

And in the fearful minds of the break-in-houses.



So true!!!!



OK guys, another scenario..
Empty table during dead time, just you or one or two Guys

Play the DP.Establish the Point with MAX ODDS. Shoot for the seven.
And the other player wants to pass the dice


What are your Thoughts??????
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter" -Mark Walberg pain and Gain
petroglyph
petroglyph
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June 22nd, 2014 at 4:39:56 PM permalink
Quote: TheWolf713

So true!!!!



OK guys, another scenario..
Empty table during dead time, just you or one or two Guys

Play the DP.Establish the Point with MAX ODDS. Shoot for the seven.
And the other player wants to pass the dice


What are your Thoughts??????



I think your scenario has me with the dice, betting the don't, max odds and me trying to hit a seven.

Other players at the table already, 1-2. If I succeed in my endeavor to hit the seven the dice will pass anyway.

The other person [is it a player?] that wants me to pass the dice. I am assuming they don't like me throwing and betting the don't.

The flow of my game gets interupted like this so the best thing for me to do is to start aiming for the point. I am bound to hit the seven. Then everyone is pleased, and I reasess I wish to stay or leave. The game probably has already gone to long with people rude enough to mess with a shooter.
TheWolf713
TheWolf713
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June 22nd, 2014 at 5:36:27 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

I think your scenario has me with the dice, betting the don't, max odds and me trying to hit a seven.

Other players at the table already, 1-2. If I succeed in my endeavor to hit the seven the dice will pass anyway.

The other person [is it a player?] that wants me to pass the dice. I am assuming they don't like me throwing and betting the don't.

The flow of my game gets interupted like this so the best thing for me to do is to start aiming for the point. I am bound to hit the seven. Then everyone is pleased, and I reasess I wish to stay or leave. The game probably has already gone to long with people rude enough to mess with a shooter.



Sorry
let me correct that.. When I said "passing the dice" I meant the other player was a fellow DP player and didn't mind. He wants you to shoot for the seven out, and will pass the dice right back to continue.
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter" -Mark Walberg pain and Gain
petroglyph
petroglyph
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June 22nd, 2014 at 5:47:54 PM permalink
Quote: TheWolf713

Quote: petroglyph

I think your scenario has me with the dice, betting the don't, max odds and me trying to hit a seven.

Other players at the table already, 1-2. If I succeed in my endeavor to hit the seven the dice will pass anyway.

The other person [is it a player?] that wants me to pass the dice. I am assuming they don't like me throwing and betting the don't.

The flow of my game gets interupted like this so the best thing for me to do is to start aiming for the point. I am bound to hit the seven. Then everyone is pleased, and I reasess I wish to stay or leave. The game probably has already gone to long with people rude enough to mess with a shooter.



Sorry
let me correct it.. When I said "passing the dice" I meant the other player was a DP player and didn't mind. He wants you to shoot for the seven out



Where is my bet, on the passline? If so I try to ignore them, good luck with that for very long.

I guess my standard answer for any scenario is I won't just give up the dice. I think it an odd or weird request that someone would ask me to do so, if I choose without their input to quit throwing, I will but not in the middle of a roll when a point is established. On long rolls before, I've decided I was leaving win or lose after the next roll and will say so before establishing a point.
TheWolf713
TheWolf713
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June 22nd, 2014 at 6:03:44 PM permalink
@petroglyph

Your bet would be on the Don't Pass as well You would be shooting from the Don't with Max odds, after the point is established, you would proceed to shoot for the seven. Once you seven out, the other player would allow you shoot again I know it sounds dumb and simple
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter" -Mark Walberg pain and Gain
petroglyph
petroglyph
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June 22nd, 2014 at 6:10:32 PM permalink
Quote: TheWolf713

@petroglyph

Your bet would be on the Don't Pass as well You would be shooting from the Don't with Max odds, after the point is established, you would proceed to shoot for the seven. Once you seven out, the other player would allow you shoot again I know it sounds dumb and simple



Ok, I get it now. I'm particularly thick today for some reason. It hit 107 in the shade, could be the problem?

In that scenario, it sounds like fun. I/we have had it happen on the right side. I don't play enough dark. One of things I am working to change.
RS
RS
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June 23rd, 2014 at 12:19:43 AM permalink
Quote: VegasDiceController

Exactly what Ive been doing for a few months now. Lay all numbers behind on the CO Roll to Win increments of 20 since the house VIG is based off of a $20 WIN.

So laying 4/10 for $40 each to Win $20....Laying 5/9 for $30 to Win $20 and laying 6/8 $24 to win $20. A CO 7 and you Win 6 bets of $20 ($120) less the $6 vig for a NET of $114, while only putting at risk 1 bet of a box number. If you take into account the 6/8 should roll more than the 4/10, your risk now becomes $24 +$1 vig=$25 risk to win $114. You could Lose 4 bets and Win 1 bet and still be ahead.

So get good at throwing C.O 7's. Another option is skip 6/8 and take that $24 and add to lay of 5/9 and add $6 ea to make it a $60 to win 40. Yes a hit on 5 and 9 would lose 2 bets but a hit on the 6/8 would net zero and you would take down Lays after the 6/8 rolled.

One could pull the 6/8 of $24 each to putting an additional $40 to win $20 on 4 or 10 additional $$$. Pick the one that's lost the most of the 2. Now you have an extra $9 to deal with and you could use $2-3 to Hop that hard 4 etc. So only number that could screw you would be 2 # of possible 36, so you would reduce your risk even more.

So you roll would look like this...

Do a Doey/Dont for $table minimum...Lay 4 for $80 to win $40 and Lay 10 for $40 to Win 20, Lay the 5&9 for $30 ea to Win $20. Vig is $2.
Leave the 6/8 open and set for a 7. A CO 7 you win a net of $96.
A C.O 6/8 and you Lose zero. You now can take odds on the 6/8 of $10 and your risk to Win $100 is $10 or 1/10 /10% of possible $100 Win on a CO7.
A C.O 5 or 9 and you Lose $31. A C.O easy 10 and you Lose $40 ( a 5% chance to Lose) ... a C.O easy 4 and you lose $80 (a 5% chance to Lose).

So perfect throwing C.O 7's, do a doey/dont P/DP and lay 4,5,9,10, Hop the H4 for $3 and the hop the H10 for $1. You are in a good position to hit multible 7's and when you do hit a point box number, if it happens to be a 6 or 8 you reduce risk and house edge even more.

When tracking the table, when i see 5 consecutive box # rolls without a C.O 7, I look to Lay the back Wall like I posted above. if I lose 3 bets, (now 8 consecutive box CO rolls) I bump above senario up to win $40 instead of $20.

7 Winner...Words to my ears...



Vig is the same for a $25 win as a $20 win. Better off lay 50/36/30 on 4/5/6 respectively to win 25/24/25.
dicesitter
dicesitter
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June 23rd, 2014 at 8:10:07 PM permalink
7's



I would not play the game of betting the 7's for one simple reason, if you dont hit the 7 you lose money.


I dont agree with putting all your money on 6 & 8 either, but say you do have money on the 6 & 8 or 4 & 10
and you dont hit them, you dont lose money. You lay all the numbers and you hit a 5, you lose, you then hit a 9
you lose, you hit an 8 you lose, you hit a 4 or 10 you really lost.

A real good dice influencer may have a small advantage, but not enough to go to the table each day and
bet the same numbers days after day.

You surely cant go to the table and throw all 7's and when you lay, you lose more than your going to
win on any non 7 so you have to hit way more than 50% just to break even.... pure folly!!!!!

Dicesetter

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