Buying the 5 or 9

I've noticed on trips to LV over the past several years that casinos, at least on the strip, are collecting the vig on buy bets only on a win. This has a marked effect on the house advantage--the HA on buying the 4 or 10 drops from 4.76% to 1.67%, making the buy bet an even better bet than a place bet on the 4/10 (HA=6.67%). Anyone who is knowledgeable will buy rather than place those numbers.

If I did the math correctly, collecting the vig on a win makes a buy bet on the 5 or 9 a better bet than placing those numbers: the HA drops from 4.76% to 2.0%, compared to a 4.0% HA for the place bet. Yet I've never see anyone buying the 5 or 9.

Is my math and reasoning correct? If so, why no buys on the 5/9? Do casinos that only charge vig on the win even allow this? Has anyone ever tried this? What was the dealers' reaction?

ed431309

Most (all?) casinos only give you a free buy on 4 or 10. If you buy the other numbers you will have to pay the 5% of the bet upfront. Maybe you guys know something I don't there and there are places that will do it. This makes the vig 3.33% of the win on $21/$30, or 2.22% of the win on $31/$45 if you could get away with the juice only being $1.

If you play the Shoot to Win craps machines you should buy the 5/9 as opposed to placing it. Although they take 5% of the win, not the original bet, it still makes a player $.15 for every $5 wagered ($5 wins $7.15) when it hits.

Quote: Pokeraddict

Most (all?) casinos only give you a free buy on 4 or 10.If you buy the other numbers you will have to pay the 5% of the bet upfront.
Maybe you guys know something I don't there and there are places that will do it.

Most Yes, not all, you are correct.
OP mentioned he saw many casinos with free buys.
It is up to the reader to believe the claim.

Quote: Pokeraddict

This makes the vig 3.33% of the win on $21/$30,

edit: OK. vig is 5% of the bet in most casinos.
A look at the house edge.
A $21/$30 on 20Buy5 paying a $1 vig up front has a house edge of exactly 1/21 (4.76%)
(again using John Scarne method.
$21 should pay $31.50 for a total of $52.50
Player only has $50 in his hands after a win.
Was shortchanged $2.50. So, 2.5/52.5 = 1/21 which is exactly the VIG / Total Bet)

Quote: Pokeraddict

2.22% of the win on $31/$45 if you could get away with the juice only being $1.

OK.
A $31/$45 on 30Buy5 paying just a $1 vig up front has a house edge of exactly 1/31 (3.2258065%)
(again using John Scarne method.
$31 should pay $46.50 for a total of $77.50
Player only has $75 in his hands after a win.
Was again shortchanged $2.50. So, 2.5/77.50 = 1/31 which is exactly the VIG / Total Bet)

Buy bet vig up front tables coming later.
Just remember the formula: VIG / Total bet (total bet includes the vig)
Example: a $26 Buy9.
costs $1 vig. ($26 * 5% = $1.30 most casinos will round down)
he = 1/(26+1) = 1/27

a $25 Buy4
costs $1 vig. ($25 * 5% = $1.25 most casinos will round down)
he = 1/(25+1) = 1/26
($26 should pay $52 for a $78 total. Player shows $75 in his hand after a win. Was shortchanged $3. $3/$78 = HE)

Quote: DaveL723

I've noticed on trips to LV over the past several years that casinos, at least on the strip, are collecting the vig on buy bets only on a win.

My reasoning is simple:
If they collect the vig up front you should only place 6 and 9 (under 2%)
If they collect the vig only if you win you can place 6 and 9 or buy the 4 and 10 (both under 2%).

If they collect the vig only if you win, you should buy the 5 and 9( exactly 2%) but why bother? How is this bet any more exciting than the other two?
I just don't bother with the higher house edge.

I figure it is OK to play a higher house edge, if you are getting a bigger thrill. There should be a signal to noise ratio.

If I want more action than just my passline bet with full odds I make come bets with full odds... lower house edge than all of this. but what do I know?

Quote: pacomartin

My reasoning is simple:
If they collect the vig up front you should only place 6 and 9 (under 2%)
If they collect the vig only if you win you can place 6 and 9 or buy the 4 and 10 (both under 2%).

If they collect the vig only if you win, you should buy the 5 and 9( exactly 2%) but why bother? How is this bet any more exciting than the other two?
I just don't bother with the higher house edge.

I figure it is OK to play a higher house edge, if you are getting a bigger thrill. There should be a signal to noise ratio.

Think you made a typo there. "6 and 9" should probably be "6 and 8" in your first paragraph.

In pa where I work if ask for a buy on the 5 or 9 you pay after it hits. If u ask to place the 5 for 20 we pay u 28 but if u ask to buy we will pay u 29(30for a buck). Ppl now have a $10 bet and go to $24. Pays $36 with $1 vig so u make 35.