Influencing the Outcome of the Roll

Quote: AlanMendelson

They gently tossed the dice right out of the book. Both happened to use the flying wedge or 3V set. Betting the inside only.

Thanks Alan for bringing forth your challenge. This is essentially the way it is done. I have seen it done.

If someone told you in Physics terms what it takes to shoot better than 33% from the 3-point arc in basketball during competition - and you knew nothing about the sport of basketball - you would deem such an assertion absurd. Yet, hundreds if not thousands of High School players, collegians and Pro's achieve that proficiency level each year. It IS possilble and it IS done every week in casinos around this country.

Quote: midwestgb

It IS possilble and it IS done every week in casinos around this country.

But Not more than just random dice rolls. That is the whole point.

And without the wasted time in setting and getting set and a slow smooth toss that 50%, give or take due to variance, of the time both dice never "hits the wall" or even touches the wall.
Without hitting the wall, DI is easily provable.

Still no proof that the set and delivery actually cause the end result.

All the DI stats posted in this thread are meaningless until ONE can prove that the dice in motion react exactly as the dice controller wants to.
Only one sure fire way to do that.

I know ME wants to see the proof.
Then we all will have something.

Next!

Well, here we are with fifteen pages of posts and it's all the same old same old. Just a couple of things I'll mention in response to a few of the posts from the pages gone by:

1. Mr. V. I wondered if you'd come out from under your rock. Actually, I'm glad to see you're still out there. I swapped e-mails with John Patrick just last week. He's doing well - playing poker most nights and doing his sports betting thing. The post you remarked on regarding the Albuquerque seminar was okayed by John in advance, btw. And folks - even though John and I are casual acquaintances and have done a joint seminar in the past, he's not really a believer in dice influencing either. He probably won't tell you that, but he would most likely say the jury is out on it.

2. I have said repeatedly in this thread that I have no problem with third parties following me around tracking rolls. Heck, I can think of half a dozen guys who are doing it already - not just on me but on every other player that touches the dice when they're at the table. We could get one of those guys to do the tracking. Of course, they're all believers so that would make any tracking they do flawed. But wait. If that's the case then any data tracked by non-believers would be flawed as well.

3. Have I ever mentioned quantum physics and string theory as relates to dice control? I wrote an article about it about six years ago. Hey, I have an idea! I'll start a BLOG over here and start posting all of my old articles. That'll give you guys a completely new set of things to pick apart.

4. You think I made these numbers up? You have completely misjudged me and the amount of time I dedicate to this stuff. If I wanted to make up numbers I'd tell you I have an SRR of 66 or some such BS. Wait a minute. I've tossed several 66 plus roll hands in casinos. So for those 66 rolls I DID have an SRR of 66. LOL. Unfortunately, there are guys out there who make such brags. I'm not one of them.

5. Earlier descriptions of a controlled toss are not descriptive of my toss OR the toss I teach. If you incorporate a backswing into your toss you can still have a measure of control, but the second you pick up the dice off the deck and begin that backswing you have introduced a random element you don't need. Set the dice. Grip 'em. Focus on your landing zone. Launch from the deck. And forget that 45 degree angle thing some folks teach. The dice tend to splatter too much with that toss. I want to toss them low, slow and easy.

6. Alan. How the hell are you. News at 11:00.

Okay, that's enough for tonight. I don't want you guys to bite off more than you can chew.

I haven't read a single post on this thread. Dice
control is baloney, not one person anywhere
has proved they can do it. Just like controlling the ball
in roulette, its an urban legend.

Quote: heavy

1. Mr. V. I wondered if you'd come out from under your rock. Actually, I'm glad to see you're still out there.

Hey Heavy.

Yeah, I'm still posting on a couple of gambling boards pretty regularly, but not Patrick's board.

Man, I sure miss the old days of wanton puppetry at All Craps and Craps Pit: "Drill 'n Phil, the Demented Dentist ..." ah, down memory lane.

Not that YOU ever dabbled in puppetry, oh no ...

Things change, but with Stanton posting his nonsense regularly at GG, I keep my talons blooded.

Good luck to you.

roll dem bones

Quote: midwestgb

Thanks Alan for bringing forth your challenge. This is essentially the way it is done. I have seen it done.

If someone told you in Physics terms what it takes to shoot better than 33% from the 3-point arc in basketball during competition - and you knew nothing about the sport of basketball - you would deem such an assertion absurd.

No you wouldn't. The path of a basketball after it leaves the shooter's hand is not chaotic and can be predicted based on such factors as force and angle. The path of the dice is chaotic (where the path includes bouncing off the back wall) and cannot be predicted even given initial starting conditions.

Quote: MathExtremist

The path of the dice is chaotic (where the path includes bouncing off the back wall) and cannot be predicted even given initial starting conditions.

Exactly. And they weigh NOTHING. Its like trying to
throw a feather accurately. Its not possible.

EvenBob: dont get me started about roulette. Ive seen experienced dealer targets groups of numbers on a wheel, usually four slots.

Anyone who can influence the dice to a profitable degree is not going to publicly show they can do it. Do you expect card counters to wear a sign when they sit down at a BJ table?

The real question is can it be taught? Can you learn it? Can you hope to learn it? How much should you pay to try to learn it?

Look, if you came to me and said you would teach me to fly a plane for $10 I would say "no" because I have no interest in flying a plane. Yet, some people will willingly pay several thousand dollars for flying lessons because they want to fly.

So let's change the question a bit:

Would you pay $10 for someone to teach you how to influence the dice? Yes, I would. Would you pay several thousand dollars for someone to teach you how to influence the dice? No, I wouldn't.

Mr. V: I can't prove those two guys actually controlled or even influenced the dice. I can't tell you it wasn't all luck. What I can tell you is -- I wish I had that kind of luck when I throw the dice. LOL

To sum it up, I think there are people who can do it. But there are only a few quarterbacks in the class of Dan Marino, and a few pitchers in the class of Sandy Koufax, and a few basketball players in the class of Michael Jordan. God bless them.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Would you pay $10 for someone to teach you how to influence the dice? Yes, I would. Would you pay several thousand dollars for someone to teach you how to influence the dice? No, I wouldn't.

If you could reproduce the results posted in this thread, you would have at least a 100% advantage over the house and be able to earn at least $1000/hour playing craps. Why wouldn't you spend $10,000 to learn that? You could make it back in a day or two.

Is it because (a) you don't believe the reported numbers are accurate, or (b) you don't believe that the teachers could successfully teach you?

Quote: AlanMendelson

To sum it up, I think there are people who can do it. But there are only a few quarterbacks in the class of Dan Marino, and a few pitchers in the class of Sandy Koufax, and a few basketball players in the class of Michael Jordan. God bless them.

And apparently Michael Jordan didn't have the God given ability he had to work very hard to get there. In seventh grade, when Michael Jorden was still playing our gym teacher told a story about how Jordan didn't make the team his junior year, but worked extremely hard, hours on the court, to make the team the following year... and the rest is history.

Quote: AlanMendelson

God bless them.

There is no god.

There is no dice control.

Quote: MathExtremist

If you could reproduce the results posted in this thread, you would have at least a 100% advantage over the house and be able to earn at least $1000/hour playing craps. Why wouldn't you spend $10,000 to learn that? You could make it back in a day or two.

Is it because (a) you don't believe the reported numbers are accurate, or (b) you don't believe that the teachers could successfully teach you?

I don't have the skill -- hand/eye coordination, control of my hand, control of my arm -- anymore. Years ago I did. After my kidney/pancreas transplant I started taking certain drugs that make my hand shake. Now, in the past I did attend some of the low cost lectures, and thats how I met Heavy. Years ago I did have a reputation for shooting and I was thrown out of three casinos -- Bellagio, NYNY and MGM because of my shooting (and they were all LEGAL throws, but the casinos didn't like me doing what I was doing).

If someone else believes they have the skill and wants to give it a shot, it's their money. My days are over.

I still set my dice using the cross sixes (thanks, Heavy) and I still try to keep them on axis, and I still try to have them gently hit the back wall... but as the dice leave my fingers I pray for a "good bounce" because I know I screwed up. LOL

As Ive said before: in a random game like craps it does no harm to try to influence or control the dice.

Quote: MathExtremist

No you wouldn't. The path of a basketball after it leaves the shooter's hand is not chaotic and can be predicted based on such factors as force and angle. The path of the dice is chaotic (where the path includes bouncing off the back wall) and cannot be predicted even given initial starting conditions.

Got to agree with ME.
OK.
I have now 12 hours filming dice rolls. And only have spent a few hours looking at the videos. This is a very time consuming chore!
What a pain everywhere!

I even did the drop test from 4 to 10 inches like the Steve Forte test.
That is easy to film and one can see the energy from gravity once the dice hit the table in slow motion.
The layout and both dice are really sent into motion.
I really could not control any drops from any height as hard as I tried and I really thought I could have.
I do not believe this is the same as tossing the dice to the end of the table.

On a soft craps layout, with a lot of bounce, just soft rolls straight to the center of the back wall I could almost control the dice to stay on axis. Low to the table is the key there. At least in the videos.
The harder the layout, no dice.
No way.

So I started at the wall and worked my way back to stick position.
It is very easy with no or a small amount of backspin to hit the wall straight on and keep those dice on axis until they come to rest.
From 4 inches to 2 feet it was actually very easy to do. And this was low to the table.
The higher I went, oops no dice. They had a mind of their own.

After about 3 hours of this, I was worn out. Too much work.
It becomes a challenge to lean into the table every time and reachout so the throw has the best chance to hit the wall low and straight on. Straight on is the key. Or disaster for any control.

It is now raining in SoCal, the power just went off and back on.
Put a fork in me, I'm done for today.

Quote: AlanMendelson

EvenBob: dont get me started about roulette. Ive seen experienced dealer targets groups of numbers on a wheel.

AlanMendelson, what you saw was blind luck. This is
an urban legend that goes back 200 years. Its even
covered in a book written over 100 years ago called
Monte Carlo Anecdotes. Its never been proven anywhere
at any time. If a roulette dealer could really do this,
with a player as a partner, they would own the casino.

this argument reminds me of another one...

re: Wongbo's post: I want to believe!

It just occurred to me, a guy who learned to set dice from the Wizard's page, in other words I barely know what I am doing:

do I really want it proved that it doesn't work at all? Now that I know how to at least set them [and nothing about technique] I would feel stupid setting them if this were proved. As of now I am hooked on it.

The last time I was at a craps table by myself, I was showing some dealers [local to DC] the basic theory, if the dice could just stay glued together. I became convinced that it was new territory to at least one of them. I asked if I could lick the dice to sort of glue them, and they got a big laugh out of my little joke.

All that would be gone *sigh*

PS: by local I mean at least available by day trip. Nothing is local to DC.

For heaven's sake EvenBob, I went in there as a news reporter. It was done as a demonstration. Of course it can be done. It's not an urban legend.

Quote: AlanMendelson

As Ive said before: in a random game like craps it does no harm to try to influence or control the dice.

And as I've said before, this is only true if no influence or control is possible. If you can influence the dice *at all*, some of the bets on the table have stronger edges than normal. Unless you know exactly how the dice distribution is changing, you can't know whether your passline edge bet just got better -- or worse.

Quote: buzzpaff

Everyone who believes in telekinesis, raise my hand.

You can put it down now. Or didn't you get the wave?
Also, you can resume breathing.

Mind dice control has been studied before: mind dice control

Astrology in gambling ... John Patrick went down that road, too ... gwen the astrologist

Ah, hope comes in so many flavors.

Quote: MrV

Ah, hope comes in so many flavors.

is this a quote from P.T. Barnum?


“There's a sucker born every minute.”
― P.T. Barnum
“Opinions are like assholes; everyone's got one.”
― P.T. Barnum
“Nobody ever lost a dollar by underestimating the taste of the American public.”
― P.T. Barnum
“Never give a sucker an even break.”
― P.T. Barnum
“I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right.”
― P.T. Barnum

Quote: WongBo

is this a quote from P.T. Barnum?

I think it was Howard Johnson.

You underestimate a great man !

“Unless a man enters upon the vocation intended for him by nature, and best suited to his peculiar genius, he cannot succeed.”
― P.T. Barnum

Quote: 7craps

Got to agree with ME.
OK.
I have now 12 hours filming dice rolls. And only have spent a few hours looking at the videos. This is a very time consuming chore!
What a pain everywhere!

I'd love to see a snippet of these rolls if you have one to share on youtube or similar.

Quote: MathExtremist

The path of a basketball after it leaves the shooter's hand is not chaotic and can be predicted based on such factors as force and angle. The path of the dice is chaotic (where the path includes bouncing off the back wall) and cannot be predicted even given initial starting conditions.

Have you ever taught a young person to shoot a basketball? I have. And let me assure you, the physics of that action are entirely chaotic.

Quote: AlanMendelson

For heaven's sake EvenBob, I went in there as a news reporter. It was done as a demonstration. Of course it can be done.

Then you were hoodwinked. Its never been proven anywhere
that a dealer can hit whatever sector he wants. He'd have to
be a robot run by a computer. You say it was a news story.
Do you have the link?

On this subject the Wiz himself says:

"I get asked a lot about whether I believe dealers can influence the spin to a certain area of the wheel. I flatly disbelieve that any dealer can do this, and still follow the usual casino rules for the force of the spin. Many dealers evidently do believe that they can indeed influence the spin. However, if they could, it would be easy to cause a confederate to win, and other players to lose, all while looking completely legitimate. Yet, somehow, you never hear about this actually happening. Nobody is getting caught or selling out, despite the alleged ease of which this is to do, what are the odds of that?"

I don't think you will find it online. If you don't believe I was there then don't. If you don't know who I am, Google me.

I'm not saying I did it. I'm not saying it was done in a live gaming situation at a casino. I'm telling you that it was demonstrated. If it can be demonstrated it is possible. That's all.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm telling you that it was demonstrated. If it can be demonstrated it is possible. That's all.

And I'm saying if it was, you were fooled. There
is no way, with the ball going in one direction,
and the wheel in the other, that it can be done.

There have been demo's where the ball and
wheel are going in the same direction and the
dealer simply matches the speed and plunks
the ball in the same section every time. Thats
easy to do, you'd be amazed how many people
never notice the ball is going the same direction
as the wheel.

Quote: odiousgambit

PS: by local I mean at least available by day trip. Nothing is local to DC.

If you are referring to Washington DC, Hollywood Casino in Charles Town, WV is only about 1.5 hours away from DC and can be done on a day trip.

Here's a short video of Axis power Craps training and dice throwing.

Heavy Throwing

I assume the throw shown isn't an example of a perfect on-axis throw...

that video does not demonstrate anything except for a random roll that happened to come up a seven.
notice that a dice controller will never tell you in advance what numbers are going to come up.
notice how much action each individual die takes off of the wall.
if anything this video proves the non-existence of dice control

Quote: WongBo

that video does not demonstrate anything except for a random roll that happened to come up a seven.
notice that a dice controller will never tell you in advance what numbers are going to come up.
notice how much action each individual die takes off of the wall.
if anything this video proves the non-existence of dice control

Bingo

Quote: WongBo

notice that a dice controller will never tell you in advance what numbers are going to come up.

Jiggaboo Jones does.

Jiggaboo Jones

and for you doubters out there

Jiggaboo proof

If you can not trust a black man named JIGGABOO, who can you trust !

My understanding about "dice control theory" is that the goal is to either avoid a 7 or increase the chance of a 7. I've never heard of anyone who claimed they could roll a particular number on demand. However, some of the advocates have reported how they have hit certain numbers with greater frequency.

Quote: AlanMendelson

My understanding about "dice control theory" is that the goal is to either avoid a 7 or increase the chance of a 7. I've never heard of anyone who claimed they could roll a particular number on demand. However, some of the advocates have reported how they have hit certain numbers with greater frequency.

I've always wondered why it is called a "hardways" set, when in fact the goal is not to produce hardways. I guess it is more memorable than the, "Not Seven" set.

Quote: MathExtremist

The path of the dice is chaotic (where the path includes bouncing off the back wall) and cannot be predicted even given initial starting conditions.

I've been thinking about this. See if you agree with me or perhaps you can suggest a more realistic way to measure the "chaos".

An experiment can be set up whereby a machine throws two dice the same way each any every time. The machine is adjustable so that it can hold dice of many sizes. First, start off with very large dice of perhaps four inches per side, set the dice in such a way that the most often outcome of each roll will be snake eyes. See if you can toss them through the air three feet, have them bounce off a felt surface then against a wall, and measure how many times you get snake eyes and how many times you get something else. With large dice, I think this is possible. You can even allow the machine to adjust the force to see if you can make the expected outcome (snake eyes) occur more often as long as the dice still hit the back wall.

Second, switch out to smaller but still gigantic dice and repeat the experiment.

Third, size down again, repeat this process until you get down to regulation casino dice.

You will be able to measure how much chaos is being introduced into the system with each reduction in die size by counting how often the most likely outcome (in this case, snake eyes) did not happen. With data like that, you can tell if a machine is able to influence dice and by how much.

Quote: EvenBob

Then you were hoodwinked. Its never been proven anywhere
that a dealer can hit whatever sector he wants. He'd have to
be a robot run by a computer. You say it was a news story.
Do you have the link?

On this subject the Wiz himself says:

"I get asked a lot about whether I believe dealers can influence the spin to a certain area of the wheel. I flatly disbelieve that any dealer can do this, and still follow the usual casino rules for the force of the spin. Many dealers evidently do believe that they can indeed influence the spin. However, if they could, it would be easy to cause a confederate to win, and other players to lose, all while looking completely legitimate. Yet, somehow, you never hear about this actually happening. Nobody is getting caught or selling out, despite the alleged ease of which this is to do, what are the odds of that?"

Well apparently the casino's believe it is possible. If a particular player is winning a lot by hitting their numbers, they have the dealer change the ball, change the wheel speed or change their ball speed. They don't necessarily think there's dealer collusion, but that the maybe the dealer is unknowlingly hitting a specific section.

" Well apparently the casino's believe it is possible. " NOT, but low level employees are superstitious.

Quote: ewjones080

They don't necessarily think there's dealer collusion, but that the maybe the dealer is unknowlingly hitting a specific section.

Its pure superstition. Changing any of those things
changes nothing. Random is random.

Ha Ha Bob I got there first !

Quote: EvenBob

Its pure superstition. Changing any of those things
changes nothing. Random is random.

This is really very silly. We're not talking about random spins in roulette by an honest dealer. We are talking about a known threat in casino security. Just as there are card dealers who can deal from the bottom of the deck or without touching the top card in the deck. This was a similar event as someone who introduces weighted dice into a game. These are real threats to gaming protection. It can be done. What are you arguing about????

In front of my eyes, at 7-am at a major casino, with a breakfast buffet set up for the visiting "dignitaries" a dealer demonstrated hitting a targeted section of the roulette wheel. And he did it twice in a row for the demonstration.

Deal with it. It happened.

I'm not saying it goes on at any casino. I just know -- as the casinos know -- it CAN happen. What's the fuss all about??

Quote: AlanMendelson

And he did it twice in a row for the demonstration.
?

Twice? Heck, I can do it twice. Its a trick, its a setup.
I have 4 roulette wheels, one of them is a regulation Huxley
casino size beauty. With the right practice and setup, I can
hit the same sector twice. The guy you saw didn't do it more
because he couldn't. Nor can you do it under normal playing
conditions. Everything has to be exactly right. Its like the guy
who can sink 6 balls on a pool table with one shot. He can't
just walk up and do it, first it takes a lot of setting up.

Quote: AlanMendelson

In front of my eyes, at 7-am at a major casino, with a breakfast buffet set up for the visiting "dignitaries" a dealer demonstrated hitting a targeted section of the roulette wheel. And he did it twice in a row for the demonstration.

Gee, he predicted the quarter sections he'd hit, twice in a row.

What are the odds of THAT happening?

Oh: 1 in 16, right?

About the same odds as betting yo and having it hit.

Neither probative nor impressive, although it makes for a good yarn on a message board.

Quote: WongBo

that video does not demonstrate anything except for a random roll that happened to come up a seven.
notice that a dice controller will never tell you in advance what numbers are going to come up.
notice how much action each individual die takes off of the wall.
if anything this video proves the non-existence of dice control

I don't present that video as proof or falsification of any claim made by Heavy or antoher dice setter. Just that it exists, and you can see a snippet of what Heavy's seminars might look like and his throwing techniques.

geez, some folks indeed seem to be smarting under the scourge of their martingales or something [g]. Taking this way too serious.

That video is some kind of teaser, OK, big deal. I am glad somebody provided it. I am going to assume it is correct that this is "Heavy" shown in the video? Good to see not only what he looks like, but his demeanor, speech, etc. More evidence he does not seem to be a uneducated rube. I do know enough about the reaction to his accent of many people who are not from the South to know that an instant derogatory prejudice will form about our boy, listening here. My sympathies, Heavy.

What is bugging me now is, OK, Heavy has discovered this website is not going to be good for mining Prospects, or getting 'leads' in sales parlance. He should have figured that out by now. Why is he returning here to wrestle some more?

It was four targeted numbers on a single zero wheel.

But what's the use. You know better than I do. It was a set up and a scam and a complete fabrication. So was everything else said about casino and gaming protection and security. None of it is true.

I'll drop the subject.

Quote: odiousgambit

geez, some folks indeed seem to be smarting under the scourge of their martingales or something [g]. Taking this way too serious.

Guilty, I'm sure, but this is the sort of topic that makes me keep coming back here. I love examining these claims and seeing if there's anything of substance to them. There's usually not.

Quote:

That video is some kind of teaser, OK, big deal. I am glad somebody provided it. I am going to assume it is correct that this is "Heavy" shown in the video? Good to see not only what he looks like, but his demeanor, speech, etc. More evidence he does not seem to be a uneducated rube. I do know enough about the reaction to his accent of many people who are not from the South to know that an instant derogatory prejudice will form about our boy, listening here. My sympathies, Heavy.

I hadn't even imagined that people would based on an accent.

Quote:

What is bugging me now is, OK, Heavy has discovered this website is not going to be good for mining Prospects, or getting 'leads' in sales parlance. He should have figured that out by now. Why is he returning here to wrestle some more?

Why do people climb Everest?

Quote: thecesspit

Why do people climb Everest?

Because they're trolls? ???????

No need to give up, Alan. A friend of mine who happens to be a TGS at a casino I haunt from time to time told me once of a similar set up - a dealer said he could hit a 3 number sector and demonstrated by hitting the middle number in the sector twice. If you were a casino manager what would you have done after the demo? Probably what this guy did. Took the dealer off the floor and fired him. Not because he was a bad dealer - but because he was too good and the opportunities for collusion with a friend (fellow cheat) were so great that he couldn't have the guy dealing the game.

By the way, dealers are always trying to jack with the DI's. Everything from waving the stick in your face to leaning out over the table to block the shot to the back wall to cracking wise about "the Dice Counters are here" to deliberately shorting you on pay-offs or ignoring your calls for press moves or off buttons. And yes, I've had stickman bat the dice off the table with the stick, hit me with the stick, and deliberately sneeze on me while I'm tossing. Then there's the guy they send in at stick who I assume lives on a diet of cheap beer and pickled eggs. Been there. Experienced it first hand. Used to put up with it. Don't anymore. Why some guy who is essentially in the entertainment business - and relies on tokes for a significant portion of his income - goes out of his way to insult the customers is beyond me. Nothing good (for the dealer) can possibly come out of it.