Craps Plays for Longest Bankroll?
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1. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then putting 2x odds behind it. (Pro = probably the best mathematical bet?)
2. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then making up to 2 come bets. (Pro = kind of a "hedge" if the 7 shows before I get all bets on the table?)
3. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then immediately placing the 6 and the 8. (Pro = seems like I could get more ongoing action?)
From a "making the bankroll last" standpoint, is any one of these plays superior over the others assuming a $250 buy-in?
your current method is 1.41% edge.
1. is .606% edge
2. is 1.41% edge
3. is 1.41% edge for the pass line chip and 1.52% edge for the other two.
any of these bets would be a fine way to get more involvement in the game.
i usually combine all of these bets, but if you are satisfied with less action and a lower risk per turn,
you are on the right track.
i would vote for the free odds bet.
1) $5 pass
2) If a pass point is established, $5 come and $5 (or $4) in odds behind the passline.
3) If the come point is established, decide where you'd rather have your odds, behind the pass or come numbers and move it there. Now you have $15 in action.
4) One of two things will happen: you'll lose $15 on a 7-out, or you'll win one of your bets. If you win, take $5 from the winnings and rebet it as odds behind your other number. Make one more $5 line bet, either come or pass, depending on which one won. Keep the rest of the winnings if there are any (there won't be if
5) Repeat, adding $5 to the table after every win. Eventually you'll have 2 numbers working with full odds, and you'll also have some profit locked up.
6) Then expand to a 3rd number, and so forth. On a long roll, you'll make a lot more money (and have a much more exciting time) than if you just stand there with your one or two bets while everyone else is making money.
Quote: WongBothe methods listed are all valid and low edge.
your current method is 1.41% edge.
1. is .606% edge
2. is 1.41% edge
3. is 1.41% edge for the pass line chip and 1.52% edge for the other two.
any of these bets would be a fine way to get more involvement in the game.
i usually combine all of these bets, but if you are satisfied with less action and a lower risk per turn,
you are on the right track.
i would vote for the free odds bet.
The problem with doing the free odds bet is the amount of 'involvement' is the same, he is still just getting 2 numbers for a resolution. Either he waits until the point is made, or the 7. So he has more 'action', but the same amount of involvement.
As I read his post, I think he is looking for more 'action'. The come bet will provide more 'action' for at least 3 rolls. Then he will now have 4 numbers that will result in a possible resolution. But with a come bet, he could end up with the 4 & 10 as the points, which may not roll for quite some time, thus resulting in more money at risk for the 7, and still a lot of boredom in between.
So, he can Place the 6/8. It offers no safety on the 7 come out rolls (like the Come bet does), and it costs more from a HE perspective. But it has the advantage of picking 2 numbers that should be rolled more frequently than any other number but the 7. This would potentially result in more 'involved decisions' per shooter than the other 2 solutions.
Quote: blount2000When playing craps I have traditionally just played a single $5 chip on the pass line and then waited to see how it turned out. I would like to shake things up a bit by increasing my bet to around 3 chips (I know, big spender!).
If your goal is to stay at the table as long as possible, then your current strategy of waiting for a $5 pass line to resolve is the smartest strategy.
But I would suggest that you go with a 3X,4X,5X strategy to make it more exciting. Now the house edge is about 0.4%. If a 4,10 point is hit, add $15 odds, a 5,9 add $20 odds, and 6,8 add $25 odds. Each time the point is made then you will win $35.
That level of excitement will make it a lot more interesting without increasing house edge.
If you are shooting bet the $5 pass line or minimum just as the cost to play. Ignore it from then on. If you're not rolling, don't bet the line.
If you want to risk $25 or less, man up and get it to $25, and buy the 4 or 10. You can do this in almost any casino. The vig is a buck and the edge is lower than the passline or the dont pass line and the pay is double minus vig. (Edge is 1.33% for a $25 buy).
Man up again, and buy the 4 AND the 10, and you've not got an even 50/50 chance to win $49 from a $50 bet -- at which point you can take them both down.
Half the problem that I observe with players isn't just the edge, but the problem with keeping track of things like how often they should be winning.
When you are supposed to win 5 out of 11 events on the 6/8, I think some people are happy enough to win 3 or 4 out of 11, and wonder why they are still losing money.
If you can man up to a buy bet, and understand that you'll lose most of the time, but get paid nearly double when you don't .. you'll win bigger and quicker with less vig payments.
You generally have to pay $.50 -- even for a $5 5/9. Why not pay a buck to get $50 instead of $.50 to get $7?
Get a few hits .. maybe press it all the way a time or two and you can win quick and be on your way with only a couple bucks for the house.
Stiff them the tip and save a couple more. That the real way to win. The edge matters a little bit .. but if you're at 1.41 or below, shaving off those last fractions matter more for the chronic gambler like me. Not for normal people!
Get in, win, get out. That's what I say. And do it in a way that you get more than 7/6th's what you bet and without depending on what the dice just did.
If the point is 5 or 9, place bet the 6 & 8 for $6 each ($17 total outlay)
If the point is 4 or 10, put $10 odds behind the Pass Line ($15 total outlay)
This should give you a little more excitement for not too much more investment.
From a "making the bankroll last" standpoint or Longest Survival method of play.Quote: blount2000When playing craps I have traditionally just played a single $5 chip on the pass line and then waited to see how it turned out. I would like to shake things up a bit by increasing my bet to around 3 chips (I know, big spender!). I am considering trying out the following plays:
1. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then putting 2x odds behind it. (Pro = probably the best mathematical bet?)
2. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then making up to 2 come bets. (Pro = kind of a "hedge" if the 7 shows before I get all bets on the table?)
3. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then immediately placing the 6 and the 8. (Pro = seems like I could get more ongoing action?)
From a "making the bankroll last" standpoint, is any one of these plays superior over the others assuming a $250 buy-in?
(you need to decide which one is *superior* by what you want *superior* to mean)
From short term risk of ruin formula and simulation results:
1. $5 pass 2X odds
11655 average number of rolls until ruin
7691 median number of rolls until ruin
3453 average number of decisions until ruin
2372 median number of decisions until ruin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. $5 pass and max 2 - $5 come bets (NO Odds)
4864 average number of rolls until ruin
2789 median number of rolls until ruin
3474 average number of decisions until ruin
1990 median number of decisions until ruin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
3. $5 pass and $6 place 6&8 ($5 odds with a point of 6 or 8)
4480 average number of rolls until ruin
1628 median number of rolls until ruin
3252 average number of decisions until ruin
1195 median number of decisions until ruin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No surprise to me in the above order for From a "making the bankroll last" standpoint
FYI. The $5 pass with $10 odds had 2.27% of the players going well past 100,000 total dice rolls (1 in 44) before eventual ruin.
That is a nice surprise.
In general, it's nearly impossible to lose all of your money betting the minimum line bet and nothing else. You will have to go home first or go to sleep.
If you go to Joker's Wild, you can be $1 on the passline, and you could probably spend every waking spare moment you have at the table and still afford to do that.
But seriously, you guys are contemplating how to play the longest. That's like the easiest thing for anybody to tell you. If you want last longer, go with a friend and pony up their odds money. Want to last even longer? Don't bet and just keep your chips on the rail .. even when the cocktail waitress brings you a drink.
Is this really how you guys spend time? This isn't hard to figure out, really. I mean how about "don't bet."
LOL.
Quote: 7crapsFrom a "making the bankroll last" standpoint or Longest Survival method of play.Quote: blount2000When playing craps I have traditionally just played a single $5 chip on the pass line and then waited to see how it turned out. I would like to shake things up a bit by increasing my bet to around 3 chips (I know, big spender!). I am considering trying out the following plays:
1. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then putting 2x odds behind it. (Pro = probably the best mathematical bet?)
2. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then making up to 2 come bets. (Pro = kind of a "hedge" if the 7 shows before I get all bets on the table?)
3. Playing a single chip on the pass line and then immediately placing the 6 and the 8. (Pro = seems like I could get more ongoing action?)
From a "making the bankroll last" standpoint, is any one of these plays superior over the others assuming a $250 buy-in?
(you need to decide which one is *superior* by what you want *superior* to mean)
From short term risk of ruin formula and simulation results:
1. $5 pass 2X odds
11655 average number of rolls until ruin
7691 median number of rolls until ruin
3453 average number of decisions until ruin
2372 median number of decisions until ruin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. $5 pass and max 2 - $5 come bets (NO Odds)
4864 average number of rolls until ruin
2789 median number of rolls until ruin
3474 average number of decisions until ruin
1990 median number of decisions until ruin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
3. $5 pass and $6 place 6&8 ($5 odds with a point of 6 or 8)
4480 average number of rolls until ruin
1628 median number of rolls until ruin
3252 average number of decisions until ruin
1195 median number of decisions until ruin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No surprise to me in the above order for From a "making the bankroll last" standpoint
FYI. The $5 pass with $10 odds had 2.27% of the players going well past 100,000 total dice rolls (1 in 44) before eventual ruin.
That is a nice surprise.
Okay, here's a hybrid play created by my pal "shoot-it-all," who calls it the "One Hit - Can't Miss" play. You'll need more than $15. You'll need $18.
First bet: $6 Don't Pass
Wait for the point to be established. If the $6 gets knocked off - invoke the Dice Doctor rules and wait for the next shooter. Not because the odds are that he's going to continue tossing sevens or elevens and knocking you off - this is simply to prevent you from getting caught up chasing lost bets.
Once the $6 Don't Pass wager is established - regardless of what the point is you'll Place the Six and Eight for $6 each. Yes, if the point is Six or Eight you'll STILL place the point.
At this point you need only one hit on the six or eight to guarantee a profit for the hand. Let's say either of them rolls and you collect $7. Rack it. Now let's say on the next toss the shooter sevens out. You'll collect $6 for your DP along with the original $6 DP bet. That plus your $7 win on the Place bet adds up to $19 - one more than the $18 you had at risk. Can't miss!
About the only way to lose on this play is if the shooter goes seven out without rolling a six or eight - which can and will happen. But this play will give you a lot of table time for a very small buy in and as often as not you'll walk away with a small win.
Looks like you did a lot of reading for nothing as you did not even answer to OPs question. Great!Quote: heavyWow. Read through this entire thread and didn't see anyone mention playing the Don'ts. Whew.
Probably why no one thought of it.
How about following the Wizard of Vegas forum rules first and offer content relevant to the current thread, especially asked questions.
Maybe you just misunderstood his question. Excellent.
Oh, that is right. You did not want to answer the OPs exact question.
That is fine.
Better to ask these questions at your forum instead.
Oh, I see you too have your own website.
Cool.
Way better than the answers on this one.
Excellent work heavy.
Thanks for the pointers.
i usually just dismiss them as another scam artist.
everything they say is suspect.
if they could control dice, wouldn't they be at a casino raking in cash
instead of having the time to run a website or post on forums?
Quote: heavy
At this point you need only one hit on the six or eight to guarantee a profit for the hand. Let's say either of them rolls and you collect $7. Rack it. Now let's say on the next toss the shooter sevens out. You'll collect $6 for your DP along with the original $6 DP bet. That plus your $7 win on the Place bet adds up to $19 - one more than the $18 you had at risk. Can't miss!
About the only way to lose on this play is if the shooter goes seven out without rolling a six or eight - which can and will happen. But this play will give you a lot of table time for a very small buy in and as often as not you'll walk away with a small win.
You make it sound like the player won $19. He won a total of $13 and he had $18 on the table.
They lay out $18. They have $7 back on the 6/8, and then another $12 back on the Seven out. Ends up with $19 on their rack at this point.
They win $1.
1. The original question about which play (among those mentioned) was answered in the second post on this thread. This didn't stop anyone else from chiming in with their own opinions. Since playing the Don'ts is a statistically better way to play - all of you were wrong. In my example - I went with one unit bets - $6 on the six and eight - and an extra buck on the DP to make the "one hit - can't miss" philosophy work. And I clearly stated in my post that the player ended up plus $1 after the first hit. Come on, guys. Get a calculator.
2. As for dice control, I don't think I mentioned a word about it in my post, but obviously word of my skill with the dice has made the rounds. I will be happy to have my roll results verified. No, wait. Stanford Wong did that years ago. But hey - I do not keep any secrets about when and where I play. Show up at the casino and do all the verification you want to. Of course, unless you're willing to follow me around and track several thousand rolls all of your tracking will be of little use.
Seriously, guys. That old argument about "if he could control the dice he would be in the casino playing instead of . . . " (whatever) just doesn't hold water. I know how to overhaul a motorcycle, but you won't see me with grease up to my elbows anytime soon. I know where to find the big bass on many of the local lakes, but you won't find me working as a lake guide. And yes, I know how to make money consistently at the casinos. Done it for years. But if you think I have ANY interest in working in a smoke filled environment standing next to some jerk who thinks he knows it all and putting up with dealers who would rather watch the beverage servers than pay attention to the game and the players and maybe earn a toke . . . well, you've got the wrong fat guy.
Anything else you would like to contribute?
Quote: WongBoif they could control dice, wouldn't they be at a casino raking in cash
instead of having the time to run a website or post on forums?
Heavy has plenty of time to run his website. No one goes there.
Once upon a tine he was a car salesman. Now he's selling snake oil disguised as Dice Control.
He goes around the internet dropping off a link to his site. Here's an example where he went to a website http://southerngaming.com/?p=13972[/url
The article was about the Revel opening in AC. Look at response #2. Heavy had nothing to say. All he did was 'contribute' his website.
Yeah, I know you can't wait to put that in quotes.
Now, in case you want to discuss "once upon a time's" with me I'll tell you that I am STILL in the car business. I retired from Ford Motor company in 2007, where I worked as a dealership performance consultant. Among my responsibilities - teaching people how to sell cars and make money - just like I teach people to win at craps and make money. Since retiring I've been working as an Internet Director on the retail side of the business. I sell cars and make money. I make no apologies for that. So go ahead and take your shots. As I used to say on the old rec.gambling.craps newsgroups back in the day - if I did not have detractors to take shots at me on the forums I would have to invent them. I've just been here a couple of days and already business is picking up.
You want to make a comment? Quit hijacking threads to take shots at me and respond to the content of my posts.
Oops. My mistake. You DID make a comment on my post. You said:
Quote:You make it sound like the player won $19. He won a total of $13 and he had $18 on the table.
But as someone else quickly pointed out - the player won $1, which was what I said before. Tough being rude and wrong - but hey. I'm used to guys like you.
Quote: heavyLOL. Looks like I've got myself a stalker. Hey, that's great. You pretty much proved that you don't get my sense of humor. I posted on Southern Gaming's site as a statement on the PREVIOUS post on that thread, which (sigh, I don't want to violate the terms of the Wiz's forum but I have to say this simply to explain the point of my post to guys like you who don't get it) was about dick control. Yeah, it was a viagra ad. Didn't see you complaining about that. Go figure.
Yeah, I know you can't wait to put that in quotes.
Now, in case you want to discuss "once upon a time's" with me I'll tell you that I am STILL in the car business. I retired from Ford Motor company in 2007, where I worked as a dealership performance consultant. Among my responsibilities - teaching people how to sell cars and make money - just like I teach people to win at craps and make money. Since retiring I've been working as an Internet Director on the retail side of the business. I sell cars and make money. I make no apologies for that. So go ahead and take your shots. As I used to say on the old rec.gambling.craps newsgroups back in the day - if I did not have detractors to take shots at me on the forums I would have to invent them. I've just been here a couple of days and already business is picking up.
You want to make a comment? Quit hijacking threads to take shots at me and respond to the content of my posts.
Oops. My mistake. You DID make a comment on my post. You said:
You make it sound like the player won $19. He won a total of $13 and he had $18 on the table.
But as someone else quickly pointed out - the player won $1, which was what I said before. Tough being rude and wrong - but hey. I'm used to guys like you.
You're right, I don't get your sense of humor. You posted your website as a response to a viagra ad and thought that was funny. That's not funny. That's sad.
What's even sadder is you charge people $500 for a class and are proud of it.
Though being a scam artist.
Quote: heavy
You want to make a comment? Quit hijacking threads to take shots at me and respond to the content of my posts.
As far as hijacking threads, I think you do that EVERY TIME YOU POST YOUR WEB SITE.
Maybe if you eliminated that website from your posts and quit claiming about your (Ahem) successful craps winnings you wouldn't get so much heat from others.
One last thing...."You want the truth, you can't handle the truth" LOL
The original question about which play (among those mentioned) was NOT answered in the second post on this thread.Quote: heavyHey, old Heavy shows up in a Forum and the attacks immediately begin. Great being among friends. For the benefit of the folks taking shots at me:
1. The original question about which play (among those mentioned) was answered in the second post on this thread. This didn't stop anyone else from chiming in with their own opinions.
Why would you state that is was?
Is any statement a fact just because it is stated?
First, The OP actually asks 2 questions. Just my opinion.
The first Q is in the Title of this thread. (His thread?)
The first 7 posters look to be answering that question (The thread's Q) and the answers given are just only opinions.
No data at all. opinions only.
You can win, sure you can lose. No data, no win percentages relative to a starting bankroll. Nada.
Not really important either way. That is the beauty of one's opinion, just like the beauty of one's feelings.
So this is, in reality, all fine and dandy.
Looks like only one poster took the time to answer the OP's question he asked in his first post using math and simulation data results and not just opinions.
Thats great. Who cares.
So the OP got many answers to both of his Qs. What a lucky poster.
How much value is there in one's opinion?
Is one's opinion better with some verifiable facts or data?
Any value from actual data?
Is one way better than another?
Really!
Too many questions?
Who cares!
or is that... Who cares?
The average number of rolls until ruin definitely illustrated to me which method was superior regarding making the bankroll last.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all three methods appeared to have pretty close to the same average number of DECISIONS until ruin, but the pass line with odds method had over double the number of average ROLLS until ruin. And rolls = time at the table, which is how I define making the bankroll last.
If only I could be lucky enough to be one of the 2.27% that could last over 100,000 rolls before losing my bankroll. I could get more than my share of free drinks if I could stand at the table for that long!
I will try this method out and see how I like it. As another poster mentioned early on, I may find out that I'm really craving more action in the game (i.e. opportunities to be paid more often at the cost of potentially not being able to make the bankroll last as long).
7craps, I have seen many occasions where you have helped answer questions using your expertise with WinCraps (including assisting people on how to use the program itself). Thank you.
If you have enough session bankrolls it will take on average 44 sessions to get past 100,000 rolls.Quote: blount2000Thanks to everyone for all of the answers / advice.
If only I could be lucky enough to be one of the 2.27% that could last over 100,000 rolls before losing my bankroll. I could get more than my share of free drinks if I could stand at the table for that long!
That equates to about a 50/50 chance of just you seeing that in about 30 sessions.
To quote Darth Vader
"Never underestimate the absolute power of a single bet with odds in the game of Craps"
You can simulate these situations easily on a web CGI I created for my site (GoodShooter.com).
You can pull down and try other situations (1x odds or go to two numbers)
I hope this helps!
I apologize for all the noise on this thread from spammers. I know how that can be. Feel free to post up on GoodShooter if you like. We are a very small group of friends, not a big website. But newcomers are welcome, and I just delete crap that I don't like on my forum. LOL.
LOLQuote: AhighSimulate going to the casino with $5 pass line bets and no odds on random rolls
You can simulate these situations easily on a web CGI I created for my site (GoodShooter.com).
You can pull down and try other situations (1x odds or go to two numbers)
I hope this helps!
I apologize for all the noise on this thread from spammers. I know how that can be. Feel free to post up on GoodShooter if you like. We are a very small group of friends, not a big website. But newcomers are welcome, and I just delete crap that I don't like on my forum. LOL.
One should repair the obvious errors from that simulator. LOL
Who knows how many errors exist when they are not so obvious. LOL
One Example
Pass line
$5 bets
No odds
2x target win %
trip bank $100
we end up hitting our win goal at $205 and $210.
My simulator, WinCraps and Steve Fry's Craps simulators all end at $200 when the win goal is $200.
Notice how I did not plug my simulator.
It is free IF you can steal my computer
Quote: RaleighCrapsAs I read his post, I think he is looking for more 'action'.
As WongBo nicely points out - odds are about the same on each individual bet.
But as RaleighCraps points out - if you are looking for more action, place the extra chips.
If the point hits 5, and you place 6, and 8 - you then have 14/36 or almost a 40% chance of winning, and only a ~16% chance of loosing.
If you are there for entertainment and excitement - that seems like a great way to bet. It's fun to have that 6 hit and have the dealer hand you money. That will happen a lot you know.
If you are there to last a long time - go find the Shoot to Win Craps game - you can play forever on that thing ($1 bets).
Quote: blount2000
7craps, I have seen many occasions where you have helped answer questions using your expertise with WinCraps (including assisting people on how to use the program itself). Thank you.
+1
When I want to prolong my bankroll, I play single odds DP. The fact that you're betting on a 7 rather than a 4-6,8-10 means that you'll have more action with fewer bets.
Quote: 7crapsAnd you still have not fixed (repaired) the many obvious errors in your simulated web page.
What is the problem with you?
Coding errors are very simple to find.
I hope your Dice Influence seminars have less errors in them, especially since one has to pay for them.
Oh, I forgot, your site is free to visit and use.
Hey, one gets what they paid for.
Really? I'm so sorry you are having problems, bro. Maybe I shouldn't have attacked you. At first I was mad, not I just feel sorry for ya.
