Deformed Craps Dice

Warning: If you are offended by this post, then don't read.

A few years back, a friend of mine was able to walk off with a single casino dice. The dice rolled off the table, and he stepped on it, hiding it in the arch of his shoe. They never found it, and he walked out with it.

A comparison of some of the "casino grade" dice, that are commonly available on sites like Ebay, suggests that the Ebay dice are exactly the same, or at least APPEAR to be exactly the same.

Is anyone aware of any study or any analysis of how dice will perform (meaning will there be a bias) if the dice are deformed? What my friend has found is that by holding the dice tightly together in a certain angle and position, and hitting them on the table (which is something a lot of craps players do before rolling the dice), that you can deform the corners a little bit.

Will these dice have some sort of bias that will be statistically significant?

This is for academic purposes only. So let's talk academically.

Academically, I don't believe anyone has studied the question in a rigorous fashion. There are known techniques for cheating involving altered dice, usually either with loads or shaved edges. I would suppose that if you rounded the four corners around a die face, that face would appear less frequently than the others. However, it would require much more research to determine whether that effect were sufficient to turn any craps wagers into +EV bets.

And it's a good thing you're talking academically, because attempting to alter the dice in a craps game is a felony. So is conspiring to do so.

The dice are available at most gift shops. The only thing your friend did was save a small bit of cash and having a small hole drilled through it.

The corners ware over time, which is why the casino replaces them. Rounder corners allow the dice to roll over easier. One could round specific corners in order to influence the dice to roll off that number.

A warning to your friend: If he was caught trying to slip dice into play, he would facing some serious charges...

Quote: klimate10

Warning: If you are offended by this post, then don't read.

A few years back, a friend of mine was able to walk off with a single casino dice. The dice rolled off the table, and he stepped on it, hiding it in the arch of his shoe. They never found it, and he walked out with it.

A comparison of some of the "casino grade" dice, that are commonly available on sites like Ebay, suggests that the Ebay dice are exactly the same, or at least APPEAR to be exactly the same.

Is anyone aware of any study or any analysis of how dice will perform (meaning will there be a bias) if the dice are deformed? What my friend has found is that by holding the dice tightly together in a certain angle and position, and hitting them on the table (which is something a lot of craps players do before rolling the dice), that you can deform the corners a little bit.

Will these dice have some sort of bias that will be statistically significant?

This is for academic purposes only. So let's talk academically.

You can still buy dice that were used on the tables in many casinos in the gift shop. They typically hot stamp them to mark them retired.

Deforming the edges or corners will not produce statistically significant results in actual play, as the stickman inspects the dice between each roll, and the box will retire them if they are nicked up to an extent that would affect the outcome.

25c each from the Orleans gift shop for experienced dice. $12 a stick for virgin dice at the Gamblers General Store.

The sharp edges make them a pain for short rolls in most table top boardgames. Far too each to "slide" or quarter turn em.

Just a note from the grammar police - the singular of dice is die. So your friend absconded with a single casino die, or he absconded with 2 or more dice.

Ah yes. Die.

It is my position that the damaged edges wont make much of a difference.

If you knew my friend, you wouldnt be surprised that he stole a die.

Yes, the physical measurements of dice change as they are used, this is why dice are replaced several times a day by the casino. Typically the dice are changed three or four times a day.

As the corners wear from regular use on the table, the performance of the dice can change. How you measure that change is beyond me, but sharp dice are less likely to slide and more likely to flip on the table surface.

Yes, if you rub one face of a die long enough and hard enough on a table surface you will alter the measurements of the die by some miniscule amount which may or may not make a difference. One technique used by cheats is to introduce shaved dice into a game. This is one reason why a boxman or floorman will check the dice that go off the table to be sure they are the casino's dice and not some "substitute."

I was given a stick of non-cancelled dice from a casino on the Strip. But it would be almost impossible to introduce these dice into a game at that casino because the code numbers on them most likely will not match the code of the dice in play. So anyone wanting my non-cancelled dice to experiment with altering them will be wasting their time.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I was given a stick of non-cancelled dice from a casino on the Strip. But it would be almost impossible to introduce these dice into a game at that casino because the code numbers on them most likely will not match the code of the dice in play. So anyone wanting my non-cancelled dice to experiment with altering them will be wasting their time.

In Nevada, mere possesion of any implement intended to cheat a game is a category B felony (minimum 1 year incarceration). It is also a violation of the same law to, "instruct another in cheating or in the use of any device for that purpose..." so tread lightly.

Quote: klimate10

Warning: If you are offended by this post, then don't read.

This intrigues me more than the lopsided die. Who do you think would be offended by a lopsided die topic and how do you think they would know that they were going to be offended before they read the rest of the post?

I have seen the dice chip, sliver, or splinter along an edge. "Wear" or "rounding" are not really correct. It is sometimes possible to hold the dice in a certain way, and see the crack(s). I have also seen "Dice-dust" or slivers on the table. When I see this and I decide to play, I inspect the dice before the first roll.

MHO: A bias *can* be introduced if the bad edges are not 3D opposite or if only one edge is affected. I presume it to be a small variance, perhaps .01% or less. /MHO

Fwiw, the casino I frequent doesn't use serialized dice...what they do is take a needle and poke a hole in one of the faces...they change dice three times a day...and I've actually got a set of unused dice from them (obvious as they have no hole in them)
I would think there's laws against altering the dice...but then again, in Nevada the casino makes its own rules on dice...

Quote: TIMSPEED

Fwiw, the casino I frequent doesn't use serialized dice...what they do is take a needle and poke a hole in one of the faces...they change dice three times a day...and I've actually got a set of unused dice from them (obvious as they have no hole in them)
I would think there's laws against altering the dice...but then again, in Nevada the casino makes its own rules on dice...

I'm not Nevada, but we do that too. In addition to the serial number, we put on "scribe marks". Maybe a dot here, a dash there, something that's specific to that set, that day. It's just another in a long line of measures to verify dice.

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Foxwoods Casino used to, maybe still do this:

Orient the dice so that the FOURS are up.
Look down through the center of the die.
What you will see is the back of the 3-pip.
The center pip used to (maybe still does) have an "M" or "P" visible.

Quote: 98Clubs

Foxwoods Casino used to, maybe still do this:

Orient the dice so that the FOURS are up.
Look down through the center of the die.
What you will see is the back of the 3-pip.
The center pip used to (maybe still does) have an "M" or "P" visible.

I have a cancelled die from Mandalay Bay that has an M in this spot.

If shooting craps live I would check for this and correlate to serial number on the six.
M iMpair (French: Odd)
P Pair (French: Even)

but also as in my case
M mashentucket
P pequot